Legendary Raids and Bypass Timers

[Jeromio]

I'd remove the existence of legendary timers as well.

This! ^^

Just pls stop with the timers. They've done enough damage to the game already.

[Zakharov]

I would just remove all bypasses but it's too late for that. At this point I see a few ways to go for increasing longevity of Legendary Raids:

1. Pre-Underdark style:

• 3 day timer with no way to bypass at all (don't add Legendary Bypasses)
• 20th completion list exists to augment normal drops

2. Dump 20th list:

• 3 day timer with new Legendary Bypass (bypass can be used repeatedly)
• 20th completion list goes away completely

3. Limit Bypasses and/or Completion List:

• 3 day timer with new Legendary Bypass (bypasses are limited to 1 per day or similar)
• 20th completion list limited - any raid completed with bypass does not count towards 20th list

#1 is my favorite of course, pre U14 was my favorite time.

In all cases:

• Raid loot drop rates should be reasonable enough to feel encouraged raiding without relying entirely on 20th list. How high the drop rate will depend on how you handle bypasses
• Design raids that take longer and are more difficult - they should never be completed in 10 minutes
• Unique loot on higher difficulties
• Add new Legendary Raids regularly
• Each raid needs items with entirely unique effects - not just shuffling the same prefixes/suffixes around with slightly higher #s or bonus types
• If adding new bypasses, make them very rare and very expensive

[Jiirix]

Yes.

Limit them in some capacity please.

The will be limeted by the willingness of players to spend real money on them. I predict that you will hardly notice the few playes that will run legendary raids non-stop.
IF the new timer go into a bag... or something similar happens.. that would bring us back to where we are now.

[Iriale]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

Four simple facts:

1- People raid more, not less, because of timers.
2- Nowadays is hard fulfilling a raid party. It longs more than run the raid itself
3- Raids with only static loot as reward and with bad drop have very short longevity. If you set a fine drop rate (DOJ is ok, MOD is unacceptable) and you give other rewards than static loot that is outdated very fast, you will see raids that last forever.
4- And, of course, give us raids where we can do more things than dps!!!! I never will run DoJ again with a caster when they have all the loot of the raid. This raid is terrible!!!

What not-static-loot rewards can you give? Skill augments, hearts of reincarnation, tomes, rare augments, special pots, cosmetics, etc. Yes, Cordovan, all those things that we can’t get in game, only in the store. The longevity of the raids is killed by turbine greed, not by raid bypasses. Static loot has a very short life; we know that it will be outdated with the next pack. Give raids rewards that are not outdated for new loot!

High xp works for some raids, but not for raids in the cap. Special, not item rewards, will work always.

You are very wrong if you think that raid bypasses are the problem. The problem is the design of the raids and their rewards.

[Propane]

There are multiple raids, and you can have multiple alts. There was nothing stopping people from raiding all weekend in the past before bypass timers.

You couldn't run the same raid with the same character 10x in one night, but you could easily run 5x different raids with two different characters in one night.

Totally agree!

Remember with the level cap was 16 and the shroud took teamwork? (as well as the other raids - even at LV 20 = a lot of tearwork and different build types were needed)
Healer and heavy tank to north west with devil
Evasion and off healer to north east with fire elemental
Shield wall and healer / ranged DPS to south center
Burst DPS for center
Unlocker or two to help with puzzles

A host of different rolls for different builds!

I miss the days when the game provided the need for each player had multiple characters being geared up and ready to roll. Especially when the roles required different builds.

In my opinion, the game is better as a whole having players using a several alts to farm gear/play in general then having a players run a few very or one character. More activity at wider range of levels / more AH activity/ more cosmetic gear / etc….

This is not the only change that will help support this, but it one of many to encourage people to run more characters!

[Qhualor]

Four simple facts:

1- People raid more, not less, because of timers.
2- Nowadays is hard fulfilling a raid party. It longs more than run the raid itself
3- Raids with only static loot as reward and with bad drop have very short longevity. If you set a fine drop rate (DOJ is ok, MOD is unacceptable) and you give other rewards than static loot that is outdated very fast, you will see raids that last forever.
4- And, of course, give us raids where we can do more things than dps!!!! I never will run DoJ again with a caster when they have all the loot of the raid. This raid is terrible!!!

What not-static-loot rewards can you give? Skill augments, hearts of reincarnation, tomes, rare augments, special pots, cosmetics, etc. Yes, Cordovan, all those things that we can’t get in game, only in the store. The longevity of the raids is killed by turbine greed, not by raid bypasses. Static loot has a very short life; we know that it will be outdated with the next pack. Give raids rewards that are not outdated for new loot!

High xp works for some raids, but not for raids in the cap. Special, not item rewards, will work always.

You are very wrong if you think that raid bypasses are the problem. The problem is the design of the raids and their rewards.

1. People do raid more with timers, but even on a 3 day timer before raid bypass timers people were raiding a lot. Often using multiple characters. I used to consider every 3rd day as raid day and that was my focus.

2. I do believe it's harder to fill raids because of timers, while a lesser reason is because players in epics prefer grinding loot that will be relevant for end game gear.

3. It matters also about the raid. Look at Abbot. That was a raid that didn't stop being popular until MOD came out. Drop rates are low and don't get a full 20th reward list, but some players would grind for it regardless and dedicated fans running it for the fun of it.

[Kuttamia]

so the solution to a game that is played by such a tiny player base is to further restrict the game for the players. I hope these legendary timers gets duped to hell in future, u guys make me sick.

[Kuttamia]

Yes.

Four simple facts:

1- People raid more, not less, because of timers.
2- Nowadays is hard fulfilling a raid party. It longs more than run the raid itself
3- Raids with only static loot as reward and with bad drop have very short longevity. If you set a fine drop rate (DOJ is ok, MOD is unacceptable) and you give other rewards than static loot that is outdated very fast, you will see raids that last forever.
4- And, of course, give us raids where we can do more things than dps!!!! I never will run DoJ again with a caster when they have all the loot of the raid. This raid is terrible!!!

What not-static-loot rewards can you give? Skill augments, hearts of reincarnation, tomes, rare augments, special pots, cosmetics, etc. Yes, Cordovan, all those things that we can’t get in game, only in the store. The longevity of the raids is killed by turbine greed, not by raid bypasses. Static loot has a very short life; we know that it will be outdated with the next pack. Give raids rewards that are not outdated for new loot!

High xp works for some raids, but not for raids in the cap. Special, not item rewards, will work always.

You are very wrong if you think that raid bypasses are the problem. The problem is the design of the raids and their rewards.

Dam straight. The biggest issue with raids is their ****** drop rate, its almost a must to run 20times for named loots. Turbine decided that its better to be stuck in one level and slowly raid rather then doing the mandatory 20runs and moving on. Once again, kudos turbine for ur brilliant idea and i cant wait to see it crumble on your face once the duping kicks in.

[slarden]

isn't legendary 30+? if so, does this mean that the current level 30 raids will be excluded as well?

Legendary is level 31+ on EN. The first legendary raids will be introduced with U29.

[slarden]

This response is for all who thinks there should be some kind of refund for those who bought timers during sale. Stop lying to everyone, i know they know we all know NO ONE BOUGHT from store those timers or even if bought in small quantities only, why?

120 tp on timer for each and not lets compare real money deal
6euros = 600 tp
15 = 1600
30 =3450
50 = 6700
100=140000
150=220000

75tp = 10 as
200=30
....
795=140
1495=265
2795=500
...

How much money do u think ppl spend lets take avarage up to 50 euros which would lead for 6700 tp which would make during sale ~56 timers from store, or in same price get as and buy 100 timer packets from as ah and get like 200+ timers without any sale (there as as and tp sales too).

For those who spended tp for timers, you made mistake yourself for being greedy and unreasonable and got timers for all raids till new packet goes out, you didn't used tp to prepare for new raids, all if not most did in reality, bought antoher 200 stack of duped timers in as ah. So there is no reason even talk about refund, while same time they would waste to even discuss this nonsense would lead to less time to test develop and gather data on U29 so can we just close this?

I wouldn't suggest Turbine compensate people for timers in their inventory, but if people did purchase timers since the Thursday sale they should have the option to turn those in for a refund (or more simply Turbine can just refund the TP since it's probably cheaper/easier than getting account support involved). It could be not many did, but the ones that did should get a refund.

Anything you buy from the AH or ASAH can become obsolete quickly so no refund is in order there, however, if people spent TP on the bypass timers since Thursday it's highly likely they were doing so to stock up for U29. In my opinion it would be a mistake to alienate customers that spent TP in good faith. On the other hand, it could be 0 were sold so it's a non-issue. I normally stock up during sales, but didn't this time because I was concerned about this type of announcement.

I don't have any issues with the changes, but Turbine should take care of people that purchased timers using TP since Thursday. I am not one of those people - but I can empathisize with the situation.

[Drwaz99]

This is a horrible idea. Remove timers completely and lower the raid timer to 18 hours. Keep everything else the same.

[slarden]

1. People do raid more with timers

2. I do believe it's harder to fill raids because of timers, while a lesser reason is because players in epics prefer grinding loot that will be relevant for end game gear.

I agree one is true. I think blaming #2 on timers is wrong because since we agree #1 is true - that can't result in people raiding less.

I think a bigger reason people raid less is:
1) end game raid gear isn't helpful for TR except epic quiver which has min level 20 - GS and to a lesser extent TOD sets were helpful for TR. When 18-20 was a longer grind those TOD sets were a bigger part of TR.
2) planned level cap change to 30 - people know most gear will be obsolete anyhow and TR benefits never go obsolete - they keep accumulating.
3) the benefits of min/maxing is less important. It used to be having 3 less DC in ee DA or ee Chronoscope meant a big difference in damage to the party - not so much any more. There used to be magic #s like "have an enhchantment DC of 40", but those days are gone as DC casting in general is less effective and less important for parties.
4) Nerf hammers - look at mortal fear - 40 raids or so and it will do nothing in U29. Think of all the past lifes that could have been accumulated instead of staying at cap.

[hp1055cm]

The game would be better if no raid bypasses existed anymore and the timer for raids were reduced to 24 hours. One run per day wouldn't ransack chests and would keep the raids alive for a longer time.

Delete them from the game, refund turbine points to people that bought them.

Also please, no BTC ingredients again, farming epic shroud with alts to get ingredients to your main character can bring back to life a lot of unused alts.

But I guess bypasses on store are probably one of the best money-maker of the game.

Also increase drop rate of mark of death, fire on thunder peak and temple of the deathwyrm. Make phlogistons drop as Fall of thruth comms: epic normal 1, epic hard 1D2, epic elite 1D2+1

+1

[davmuzl]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

I would prefer a solution for legendary raids that works without spending money on timer bypasses.
Bypasses led to a situation where it is a giant pita to pug 20 MoDs (on en because eh and ee is almost impossible). I don't know how drop chances are going to look in the legendary raids and what 20s reward lists we are going to get, but I doubt that a healthy situation can be found that includes raid timer bypasses even without a ton of free ones or duping.

[davmuzl]

I agree one is true. I think blaming #2 on timers is wrong because since we agree #1 is true - that can't result in people raiding less.

What's happening is that people get 20*(number of items they want) completions and then don't touch the raid again. That's how raid timers make it harder to fill groups.

[Zzevel]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

The simple FACT that the Legendary timers will be available is the problem in the FIRST place. If you are making a change it should be NO TIMERS AT ALL in the new raids or just keep the use of all raid timers in ALL RAIDS (it is a RAID timer, not heroic raid timer, not epic raid timer why a legendary?).

Any thing else is blah blah blah, another way for us to make money, you have to buy more timers even if you already have timers you bought ... GIVE US MOAR MONEY because we are twisting the feedback to charge you again...

If raid ingredients were not BOUND TO CHARACTER (and the 20th list was kept through a TR or better yet ACCOUNT wide) I wouldn't have a problem running Legendary raids with 10 different characters. Turbine made us want to play 1 or 2 characters by adding past lives and allowing us to build up a character. Due to **** like this I still don't even have enough phlogs to make even my FIRST t3 item. When I see a group running more than 1 run in a row I see this as a bonus so I have timers ready to make multiple runs.

Now people are suggesting I play 10 toons (that are strong enough for legendary content, how many PL is that again?) to earn something that i KNOW will be bound to character to just plain stupid. I'm a casual player, i do have bypass timers I paid for (twice as I used shards for some as well) and now I am the bad guy getting finger? I'm DONE spending money on blatant cash grabs and TP as a whole.

[Kuttamia]

I would prefer a solution for legendary raids that works without spending money on timer bypasses.
Bypasses led to a situation where it is a giant pita to pug 20 MoDs (on en because eh and ee is almost impossible). I don't know how drop chances are going to look in the legendary raids and what 20s reward lists we are going to get, but I doubt that a healthy situation can be found that includes raid timer bypasses even without a ton of free ones or duping.

Temporary fix till duped timers come is to bring ur friends into raid n dont pug alone. That way u share loot with ur friends first before placing the loot on a public loot roll. Higher chance, although the chance is still like ****.

[Kuttamia]

The simple FACT that the Legendary timers will be available is the problem in the FIRST place. If you are making a change it should be NO TIMERS AT ALL in the new raids OR all raid timers in ALL RAIDS.

Any thing else is blah blah blah, another way for us to make money, you have to buy more timers even if you already have timers you bought ... GIVE US MOAR MONEY because we are twisting the feedback to charge you again...

Twisting feedbacks to make more money isnt just a Turbine problem, most f2p game companies do it too.

[Aletys]

Four simple facts:

1- People raid more, not less, because of timers.
2- Nowadays is hard fulfilling a raid party. It longs more than run the raid itself
3- Raids with only static loot as reward and with bad drop have very short longevity. If you set a fine drop rate (DOJ is ok, MOD is unacceptable) and you give other rewards than static loot that is outdated very fast, you will see raids that last forever.
4- And, of course, give us raids where we can do more things than dps!!!! I never will run DoJ again with a caster when they have all the loot of the raid. This raid is terrible!!!

What not-static-loot rewards can you give? Skill augments, hearts of reincarnation, tomes, rare augments, special pots, cosmetics, etc. Yes, Cordovan, all those things that we can’t get in game, only in the store. The longevity of the raids is killed by turbine greed, not by raid bypasses. Static loot has a very short life; we know that it will be outdated with the next pack. Give raids rewards that are not outdated for new loot!

High xp works for some raids, but not for raids in the cap. Special, not item rewards, will work always.

You are very wrong if you think that raid bypasses are the problem. The problem is the design of the raids and their rewards.

This.

Some very vocal players blame raid bypass timers for lack of longevity of raids, and apparently the devs have listened to them instead of to the rest of us. That's an easy button, and it's wrong. The real culprit is poor raid designs combined with abysmal drop rates & the poorly designed reward systems of those raids. There are still raids that get run regularly, and the devs should use those as a model. They are interesting with a way for everyone to contribute, and/or they have great rewards: Very good XP, attractive rewards (not just named items), and reasonable drop rates for all the rewards. The fact that many players have their toons on the TR/ER treadmill aggravates the problem as they're not bothering to run the raids while they're doing so.

Why should I bother to run the new legendary raids when I can expect the drop rates to be so low that 20th run is the only reliable way to get an item? Without the timers I've managed to save it will take me nearly 60 days to get one item on a single toon, and I'd have to hold multiple toons at cap in order to cycle them thru the new raids. In that time I could have ER's multiple times on all my toons, and TR'd some of them several times (I have 9 active toons, and usually cycle them thru raids rather than using timers, though I do sometimes use timers when at epic levels).

Turbine, you're effectively nerfing the existing raid timers with this, which means I won't be buying any from the store in the future, as I refuse to support such a blatant cash grab, and (more importantly) I can't trust you not to do a repeat on the new timers.

Further, why should I bother to grind for anything out of those raids when I can expect that there will be another mortal fear type nerf on anything that's really worth grinding for? Not everyone playing this game duped ... a lot of folks ground the DW raid heavily to get their mortal fear item, and now you've limited the usefulness of those items to 28-30. That feels like a betrayal of those players.

Among all my 9 toons I have a total of 1 mortal fear item. None of the rest of my toons have enough phogs to get one. Why should I bother to run that miserable Deathwyrm raid after this? I may do it once on some toons to get the bracers while they're ER'ing, but will I continue to run it after that is accomplished? Not likely. It will be more useful to ER/TR and ignore those raids altogether except, perhaps, once per life to get the favor. I've already TR'd some toons without bothering to do 20 runs.

I don't dupe. I didn't make it possible to dup (you did it Turbine, thru bugs you introduced into the game). I was not responsible for taking months and months to fix those bugs instead of fixing them quickly to minimize the damage (again it was you Turbine). Nor was I responsible for making a card reward system that gave out way more timers than apparently you wanted. That, frankly is your problem, not mine, and you should not be punishing the rest of the player base for your mistakes.

I predict fewer runs of the legendary raids, and lack of interest from a lot of the player base who are not going to stay at level 30 long enough to bother with the new raids (after all, nothing is likely to drop). You'll only get the very small percentage of players who are triple heroic & epic completionist and don't have anything better to do. Others may run it once to see what it's like, but that will be it.

[GoldyGopher]

Over the years I have run a few raids in DDO, I mean that is what the Twilight Avengers were all about before the raids got, well for the lack of a better term, unenjoyable.

Many people have made claims that the use of "Raid Timer Bypass" has increased the number of raids run.
That statement maybe true for a very small minority of the players, but over the entire game it has decreased the number of raids run through out the game.

There are half-a-dozen claims in this thread that "Raid Timer Bypass" allow parties to fill faster than before the introduction of "Raid Timer Bypass"
Again not a true statement. Raid parties for anything other than one or two specific raids never filled.

Raid design, Lag, lack of system wide raid loot system, all hurt interest in raiding across the game. The use of "Raid Timer Bypass" killed raiding, especially when it is coupled with the duping, handing out like candy, duping, free samples, unbound, and did I mention duping?

If Turbine truly wants more Raiding to occur:
1) We need multiple end game raids.
2) Raids should require multiple class types to complete. Players should want to take more than massive DPS into a raid.
3) Players should have to make choices and decisions, not simply rush forward and press the attack button.
4) Raids should have a unified crafting system. Simply put Green Steel on a much larger scale.
5) Raids shouldn't take ten minutes to complete. Raids should not be soloable, and raids should not depend on gimmicks to defeat the players.