Legendary Raids and Bypass Timers

[slarden]

Why would that be a concern? Raid timer bypasses will continue to work in existing raids and future non-Legendary lvl 31+ raids exactly as-is. Why would you be due a refund?

I'm sure there will be new Legendary raid timer bypasses coming along that are designed not to be dupable.

I am guessing most purchases of raid bypasses since the sale started Thursday was from people stocking up for U29. I thought of doing the same, but was concerned about exactly this type of thing happening so didn't. For people that purchased in good faith since Thursday that want a refund, I think that's more than reasonable.

Even if this isn't addressed on the forums, people should contact account support and they will most likely get the refund.

[Qezuzu]

So the many are being punished for the sins of the few.

"Few"

Right.

It's something that's simply necessary. If RTBs don't go unchanged in u29, we'll be right back where we started. The game, and thus its players, will benefit.

[Uska]

The game would be better if no raid bypasses existed anymore and the timer for raids were reduced to 24 hours. One run per day wouldn't ransack chests and would keep the raids alive for a longer time.

Delete them from the game, refund turbine points to people that bought them.

Also please, no BTC ingredients again, farming epic shroud with alts to get ingredients to your main character can bring back to life a lot of unused alts.

But I guess bypasses on store are probably one of the best money-maker of the game.

Also increase drop rate of mark of death, fire on thunder peak and temple of the deathwyrm. Make phlogistons drop as Fall of thruth comms: epic normal 1, epic hard 1D2, epic elite 1D2+1

I agree with everything you said

[Uska]

This really sucks for a guy spending alot of money for shards then buying and stocking up off raid timebypass. The price on AH was kinda 2/3 of the realy price buying a raid bypasstimer in shop. that means i kinda spent 20000 tp for something thats not gonna be worth anything (kinda!). Cause the idea of raid bypasses is to play the new raids and get the new end game loot. thats why u buy em and stock em! If u remove that concept your making em meaningless. My idea of stocking up on raidbypasses wasnt to raid the "old" ones and im sure im not alone in thinking that. But im also open for the problem that some ppl have duped alot of bypasses. So we need a fix somehow... those duping ppl im sure also duped astrals diamonds or already gotten so much astral shards from selling duped item they have a vault filled with shards whoever they can swim in!... my point is they have kinda infinte amout of shards anyway.... Thats why im wondering if there is a good way here to convert the raid bypasstimers to something usefull? If u just gonna leave it I feel tricked of my money. Can we come up with good ideas on how not to make ppl feel tricked and still get the balance change?

Ideas!
1.) exchange bypasstimers for shards!

2.) 2 raidbypasses for 1 legendary and make the new legendary bypasses which u got from converting bound to account?

3.) 1 bypass for 1 special (BTA) legendary bypass and the new bypass gets a timer for like 1 year which then are gonna be removed from game same as this trading function. kinda like mabar ingreds. This way ppl still get a chance to consume there bought bypasses on something usefull!

/deltoideus

exchange rate of maybe 100 to 1

[Algreg]

so, rerunning the raids with RBT is not a good thing, so they won´t work. But grinding raids without time gating is not bad enough to not make a buck of it?

[Capricorpus]

The proliferation and subsequent ubiquity of bypasses led to an unhealthy raid climate. Disallowing "standard" bypasses in legendary content is a good idea, but introducing legendary bypasses that'll immediately become a coveted form of currency like standard bypasses were until cards came out isn't. Facilitating immediate, direct transactions at no cost between players who have money to burn and players who don't is only marginally better than allowing players to purchase raid loot directly from the DDO store. As someone who was both a buyer and a seller of the current bypasses back when they were the currency of choice for a large percentage of the player base, I'd like to think that I'm speaking from experience.

There's also a flip side; while creating a new P2W currency is far from ideal, preventing players who're willing to pay and/or their friends from running content that they want to run creates its own set of problems.

My proposed solution is as follows:

Make the new bypasses BTAoA and usable on party members. This would have a drastic impact on the repercussions of adding them while still allowing players to use them for their intended purpose[s]*.

*That is, unless I'm not being cynical enough and adding a new P2W currency WAS the "intended purpose"

[painkiller3]

isn't legendary 30+? if so, does this mean that the current level 30 raids will be excluded as well?

[Seikojin]

Hi,

The implication of Cordovan's post seems to be that old bypasses won't work in new content.

Yet there was just a store sale on these items with no warning that they may not work in all raid content. I see bypasses on the ASAH too, and I assume some people also buy astral shards from the store to get bypasses from there too.

So, if you bought these items from the store or via an AS purchase in anticipation of using them in the new content, you've kind of been screwed. And I imagine most of the bypasses bought from the store are for new content, not for legacy raids.

Now whether or not you think bypasses are a good thing for the game is separate, my point is that customers should get what they paid for. And that's not what has happened with the way this is being handled.

Thanks.

Like Mabar ingredients, raid timers and their use is being altered for most players because of the extreme duping that went on by a few.

You can still use your timers for non-legendary raids, so you have that.

[JOTMON]

I know people with hundreds of them and they werent the ones duping. The ones duping may well have tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands. Each.

That would be a lot of inventory slots tied up

Seems pretty unrealistic that even dupers would have setup 50 tabs of storage space for just raid bypasses.. 100,000/100/20..
Alt accounts get 3 tabs/toon.. 2 characters/account.. so 6,000 max/alt account without spending money/farming favor.. that's a lot of alt mules.
Unlikely that they would have paid for extra slots or run favor on multiple alt accounts..

Even main accounts with max storage purchased and all favour farmed could only hold around 22,000/toon. (11 tabs/toon inventory&bank)
Even then.. Turbine would have had some pretty good revenue coming in from storage space/character sales

Personally I would not have bypasses exist at all
but since they seem to be reluctant to remove them from the game..
adding a 1 year expiry date would put an end to those gross excesses pretty quickly.
I would even kill the ability to list them in the ASAH.

[Steve_Howe]

n/t

[Ligraph]

1) As a relatively new player without many alts, and none I like to play, I like being able to run raids on my main, whenever I want. Most of the time, me wanting to raid is mostly irrelevant of the loot, but it does help to have a little something waiting at the end.
2) Raid longevity is good, and needed (somewhat more than what exists).

I would suggest no raid lockout, and a commendation loot system (along with a ransack system for these commendations), along with very low drop rates on items in-raid.
This would:
1) give people a reason to run raids other than the newest ones (for the commendations)
2) allow people to get the loot they want, rather than whatever the rng sees fit to give them
3) make it impossible to farm out top tier items in a mater of days (because of the steep ransack on commendations)
4) make a more constant item progression (as a newer player, I notice a huge jump bestrewn not having the item and having the item, and not much incentive to upgrade it, especially for the higher cost upgrades, like top teir TF).

This all depends on the commendation to gear exchange rate, which I would prefer to be relatively high, especially for higher upgrades, so getting tip-top gear would take months, while it would be possible to get the lowest teir gear in a two or three weeks of good raiding (somewhere near 10-20 raids).

[PsychoBlonde]

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

I don't really have any feedback to give on this until I know better what makes a raid "Legendary". Is this just going to be DNT Epic Shroud and Epic Tempest Spine for starters, or are all epic raids going to have Legendary versions? Is there going to be a special thing to do to enter the raid on Legendary difficulty, or will it just be Elite difficulty for certain raids? Is different loot available in the Legendary version? (I hope not.)

Without more information like that, my feedback on this announcement is basically "Um, okay then".

[mikarddo]

Why would that be a concern? Raid timer bypasses will continue to work in existing raids and future non-Legendary lvl 31+ raids exactly as-is. Why would you be due a refund?

I'm sure there will be new Legendary raid timer bypasses coming along that are designed not to be dupable.

I havent duped or bought any timers from the Store, AH or ASAH myself. I got a stack of 80 during the 8th (monty hall) card event from trading cross servers myself and I havent even used those fully yet.

I like the fact that they are taking the endless supply of duped timers out of effective use and dont mind the least that my remaining 40 timers wont work for Legendary raids.

What I dont like - what smells a lot like bait and switch because that is exactly what it is - is Turbine selling timers that effectively are pointless in a month from now and even having a sale doing so without making that clear to the buyers. Once the new raids are out you will be hard pressed to find groups for the non-Legendary raid much less enough people that care to run several of them back to back. So, those timers will be pointless for most people. You know it, Turbine definitely knows it and I know it.

The only reasonable fix would be to allow people that bought timers (recently) from the DDO Store (and only those ofc) to get a refund for the timers they have not used should they want to. No harm done to anyone, no duped timers made legit, no timers used and refunded, only a clear indication that Turbine did not intend to cheat anyone which it otherwise looks very much like.

Why would you oppose anyone getting a refund under those curcumstances except out of spite?

Cordovan, a reply to this concern is very much needed.

[blerkington]

Like Mabar ingredients, raid timers and their use is being altered for most players because of the extreme duping that went on by a few.

You can still use your timers for non-legendary raids, so you have that.

Hi,

You say that like this was the only solution. It certainly is not.

Yet we still have an item on sale in the store right now for sale which mentions absolutely no limitation on the type of raid for which it can be used. An item which has had its price reduced ahead of the next update, presumably to encourage sales, but will not work for the raids coming in that update.

On top of that, no effort is being made to communicate this very significant change to people who don't read the forums. That's a population which has been acknowledged by the developers as the majority. Apparently it's okay for those people to just go ahead buying this significantly changed product and then learn the hard way later on that they suddenly can't use it for new content.

Do you really not see a problem with any of this?

At the very least they should be offering bypass conversions or refunds to people who bought bypasses and have not yet used them. Never mind attempting to deal with the more difficult problem of sorting out what to do with people who bought shards to buy bypasses. Regardless of where those bypasses on the ASAH came from, Turbine has been making money off that too.

A more considerate and organised operation would have raised this issue well in advance of its implementation, and offered solutions to their paying customers who could make a reasonable case for being shortchanged.

But as usual, Turbine's handling of this is rushed, incomplete, and reeks of profiteering rather than looking after their loyal customers. And with these forums being what they are, there are still people who are confused enough to actually support them for it, or want to present it as something other than it really is.

Thanks.

[relenttless]

So, let me get this straight, once there were raid timers, and now there is going to be an udder one?

[Eldried]

I don't really have any feedback to give on this until I know better what makes a raid "Legendary". Is this just going to be DNT Epic Shroud and Epic Tempest Spine for starters, or are all epic raids going to have Legendary versions? Is there going to be a special thing to do to enter the raid on Legendary difficulty, or will it just be Elite difficulty for certain raids? Is different loot available in the Legendary version? (I hope not.)

Without more information like that, my feedback on this announcement is basically "Um, okay then".

This is allready known.

All quests and raids that are Level 31+ on normal(which is none of the current content) are considered Legendary.

[Cetus]

I'd remove the existence of legendary timers as well.

[AzureDragonas]

This response is for all who thinks there should be some kind of refund for those who bought timers during sale. Stop lying to everyone, i know they know we all know NO ONE BOUGHT from store those timers or even if bought in small quantities only, why?

120 tp on timer for each and not lets compare real money deal
6euros = 600 tp
15 = 1600
30 =3450
50 = 6700
100=140000
150=220000

75tp = 10 as
200=30
....
795=140
1495=265
2795=500
...

How much money do u think ppl spend lets take avarage up to 50 euros which would lead for 6700 tp which would make during sale ~56 timers from store, or in same price get as and buy 100 timer packets from as ah and get like 200+ timers without any sale (there as as and tp sales too).

For those who spended tp for timers, you made mistake yourself for being greedy and unreasonable and got timers for all raids till new packet goes out, you didn't used tp to prepare for new raids, all if not most did in reality, bought antoher 200 stack of duped timers in as ah. So there is no reason even talk about refund, while same time they would waste to even discuss this nonsense would lead to less time to test develop and gather data on U29 so can we just close this?

[Eth]

Reduce the timer. 3 days is to long.
No need for bypasses.

[Chi_Ryu]

Reduce the timer. 3 days is to long.
No need for bypasses.

This. 18 hour timer for Legendary Raids (if not all) would be a better solution.

But given the original proposal of legendary RTBs, I would recommend the following:

1) They are no more expensive in store than normal RTBs - this needs not to be seen as a cash grab.

2) They can be used on all raids, not just legendary (who wants to keep two stacks?) - this is the most important for me.

3) Anyone who store bought RTBs since Update 28 (at least) should be permitted a full refund or exchange (for a Legendary RTB) of any unused (bought) ones.