Legendary Raids and Bypass Timers

[EazyWeazy]

This is stupid. Raiding is fun and if you think there are too many timers, then make them BTA and be done with it. Messing up access to raiding for people that paid money for their timers isn't a good option and making raiding (fun) even harder to access isn't a good option.

I'm all for taking timers off raids all together and let people run them all day long if they want. They are fundamentally different than regular quests and meet different needs. I only raid about once a week when I'm active in game, but I'd love to sit there an run what I want to run without having to swap around characters, find guys that are flagged, or run around to a bunch of different quests all night. If you want to make a change to raiding make this change.

[mikarddo]

Cordovan

Will you be refunding money to anyone who purchased raid timers recently that wants it?

Thats the only real concern here.

[RistoffDervish]

This is an absolutely horrible change for those of us who bought our timers. I have ZERO interest in running old raids! Make the timers bound to character retroactively so they cant be traded or sold then. That will fix your problem.


Also I HATE the idea of putting limits on the timers use! Back before timers players were FORCED to play multiple toons to farm mats to make shroud items for just 1 character! If you tried to farm all the mats to make just 1 lightning strike weapon using only a single toon it would take you almost a year! It SUCKED big time!


Now things are great! I only play 1 toon (and because of this is a triple everything completionist), and i want it to stay that way! I want to run as many raids a day as i can afford timers for without limitations!


As i said, make existing timers bound to character, and the problem will be solved. Only those who duped will be able to use them and wont be able to trade/sell them. Lets face it, dupers dont buy from the ddo store anyway.

There is no change to your existing timer bypasses. They still work on the raids that were available when you bought them.

Hi,

This seems very opportunistic to me. Regarding the second change, do you not see a problem with selling a product in your store, then dramatically reducing its usefulness immediately afterwards? I know you want to cash in on the raids in u29, but there is a big difference between selling a product which works as described and profiteering from rules changes made in your own favour.

How has it been dramatically reduced in usefulness? Cordovan just wrote "We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment."

I think this is a step in the right direction and thank god they did it before the new raids got burned up by old dupers.

Now that people will have to spend Turbine points for timer bypass (since we know what the drop rates will be like - lol) the raids won't die out within a few weeks like we have seen in the recent past.

Hi,

You might also want to think about adjusting the prices of the bypasses downwards. Though at this point I fully expect the old bypasses to remain at the same cost and the new ones to be more expensive. Y'know, because they're legendary.

You are probably right on with this assessment.

[Ryethiel]

I don't know... On one hand, once every 3 days is not frequent enough. On another hand, going in over and over again might feel a little too frequent.

Just reduce the general timer to 18 hours.

^^^ My vote is for this. ^^^

[Coyopa]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

LOL! This does not make you guys look good. What's that? Why, yes! Yes, this does feel like a cash grab.

[CaptainPurge]

Is the community too accustomed to current raiding dynamics to absorb this change?

[Qezuzu]

I would rather RTBs be throttled in some fashion. I suggested that ransacked completions don't count towards 20th completions, giving an effective limit of 7 per week per raid per character. But ultimately, old raids have been ruined anyway. If not through obsolete loot or duping, then through so many people already having all the loot on all their characters. Changing the mechanics of RTBs won't get rid of the loot they already have and it won't improve loot from dead raids.

A "reset" for legendary raids would be welcome, if there really is inexhaustible supply of RTBs in the game, which I'm pretty sure is true. The only issue would be people who bought them on a recent sale, it seems; if they could get a LRTB for every RTB they bought, I think that'd be enough.

If you go with this system, and make sure that there's a robust variety of Legendary raids (three is a good start, but I would consider Legendary-ifying some older raids while working on development for brand new ones), we could finally have something worthwhile to do at cap.

[Chai]

This contributes to the already unfavorable ratio of time between how long it takes Turbine to develop content and how long it takes us to consume said content. The culture of paying to circumvent arbitrary barriers continues.

[Cordovan]

I read your entire post several times now and is still not clear to me.

Will legendary raid timer bypasses be able to be used consecutively?

Yes.

[blerkington]

How has it been dramatically reduced in usefulness? Cordovan just wrote "We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment."

Hi,

The implication of Cordovan's post seems to be that old bypasses won't work in new content.

Yet there was just a store sale on these items with no warning that they may not work in all raid content. I see bypasses on the ASAH too, and I assume some people also buy astral shards from the store to get bypasses from there too.

So, if you bought these items from the store or via an AS purchase in anticipation of using them in the new content, you've kind of been screwed. And I imagine most of the bypasses bought from the store are for new content, not for legacy raids.

Now whether or not you think bypasses are a good thing for the game is separate, my point is that customers should get what they paid for. And that's not what has happened with the way this is being handled.

Thanks.

[Qezuzu]

This contributes to the already unfavorable ratio of time between how long it takes Turbine to develop content and how long it takes us to consume said content. The culture of paying to circumvent arbitrary barriers continues.

But at least now, Turbine is actually getting money when people pay to remove that barrier. As it is, you can RTBs without any real limit to almost no cost to you. If it costs actual money, far less people will use it.

[Enoach]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

Interesting approach in creating Legendary Bypass so that the existing Bypass timers cannot work.

I am sorry to see that there does not seem to be a way to correct the shear amount that came into the game in unintended methods. It looks like attrition is the approach being taken here. Possibly smart to avoid an agree mob of people that my have their bypasses through legitimate purchases be it DDO Store, Events or even AH/ASAH.

A good idea simply because raiding was better before the timers existed.

The only part I disagree with is that it is not that they exist, it is that they exist in such a large amount that there is a section of the community that can run a raid to 20+ in a single day on multiple characters.


Overall I think separating legendary raids from the existing raids may be the better approach as it removes the advantage that some players gained when they should not have. Also this does not punish those that have these Bypass timers as they still work as originally advertised.

[IronClan]

Yes.

Limit them in some capacity please.

I am okay with the change but I think they should have at the very least a rudimentary limitation on uses per night or week whatever that is, even if it's 10 per week liberal use. But something like 3 a night across all raids or 2 per raid per night? those all make sense and are reasonable.

I TOTALLY want raids to last longer, so this change is for the better, you literally can not get anyone to run MoD on thelanis outside primetime due to how strip mined it was. I'm sitting here needing completions so I can ITR my gameplay is being held hostage due to the 20th list mechanic (MoD drop rates being non existent otherwise).

[RistoffDervish]

Hi,

The implication of Cordovan's post seems to be that old bypasses won't work in new content.

Yet there was just a store sale on these items with no warning that they may not work in all raid content. I see bypasses on the ASAH too, and I assume some people also buy astral shards from the store to get bypasses from there too.

So, if you bought these items from the store or via an AS purchase in anticipation of using them in the new content, you've kind of been screwed. And I imagine most of the bypasses bought from the store are for new content, not for legacy raids.

Now whether or not you think bypasses are a good thing for the game, the issue here is that customers get what they paid for. And that's not what has happened with the way this is being handled.

Thanks.

I see, that makes sense. Then I would say refund the TP and delete the old timer bypasses. The only way I would like RTBs to even be allowed in the game is maybe a once per week - oops I forgot to turn in my raid last time- type of emergency fix for when you are in a full group ready to go and realize you never turned in. - Forget twice in a week and too bad, so sad.

At least this is a step in the right direction, not letting dupers spin their dupery on the new content.

[RistoffDervish]

But at least now, Turbine is actually getting money when people pay to remove that barrier. As it is, you can RTBs without any real limit to almost no cost to you. If it costs actual money, far less people will use it.

Exactly!

[Deadlock]

Cordovan

Will you be refunding money to anyone who purchased raid timers recently that wants it?

Thats the only real concern here.

Why would that be a concern? Raid timer bypasses will continue to work in existing raids and future non-Legendary lvl 31+ raids exactly as-is. Why would you be due a refund?

I'm sure there will be new Legendary raid timer bypasses coming along that are designed not to be dupable.

[IronClan]

As a concession to the people who just bought regular timers in the cash grab sale you guys held right before you announced this: please put Mythic mechanic, and a couple new augments in all the mid to to high EPic raids (so at least FoT, DW, FP, MoD, and consider others) this will at least give those timers a use for people who may have bought a stack last week for Shroud, Hound and Tempest Spine and don't actually NEED anything else from the current slate of raids their timers will actually work in.

Having a sale on timers last week... you guys sure are coordinated...

[RistoffDervish]

Limit them in some capacity please.

I am okay with the change but I think they should have at the very least a rudimentary limitation on uses per night or week whatever that is, even if it's 10 per week liberal use. But something like 3 a night across all raids or 2 per raid per night? those all make sense and are reasonable.

I TOTALLY want raids to last longer, so this change is for the better, you literally can not get anyone to run MoD on thelanis outside primetime due to how strip mined it was. I'm sitting here needing completions so I can ITR my gameplay is being held hostage due to the 20th list mechanic (MoD drop rates being non existent otherwise).

Yes PLEASE Limit them to extend the life of the raids. And then make Legendary Versions of all the old classics for end game Heaven!

[Deadlock]

The implication of Cordovan's post seems to be that old bypasses won't work in new content.

Yet there was just a store sale on these items with no warning that they may not work in all raid content.

Clearly a conspiracy.

Couldn't possibly be a coincidence.

Evil forces are at work.

If you think it's a malicious act, then the best course of action would be to refuse to participate in any future raid timer promotions and never buy another one.

[Jasparion]

Now that you have found a way to get rid of all the duped raid timer bypasses you can make drop rates in the new raids a reasonable level so that people who are able to raid once a week have a reasonable chance of getting the new named loot (or mats to craft new named loot).

Right?

Please?

And to the very few who actually paid money or TP for legitimate raid timers I hope you offer a refund.

To those who knowingly took advantage of duped items - bad luck.