DWS vs Tempest: what is best for melee?

[Basura_Grande]

I wouldn't bother using a bow unless you have 6 levels of monk even with the recent changes to aa.

And this is where the AA/ranged pass failed miserably.

[Grailhawk]

And this is where the AA/ranged pass failed miserably.

You're right, but i do think a 20 ranger with Repeater and Bow (for manyshot only) is a better ranged toon then a Monkchar. The real issue is IMO is the bow.

[Thrudh]

I do understand that DWS allows you to still keep some serious damage from bow. But very careful strategies aside (kiting tough mobs, pulling, CCing a bit, and what not), it is hard to imagine the synergy between bow and sword.

There are plenty of quests where having a strong ranged option is very useful.

And there are plenty of quests where it doesn't help at all.

From your history of posting, you are usually focused only on the current end-game Epic Elite quests. So maybe giving up a little melee DPS for some ranged DPS doesn't make sense to you, since you are looking at a small subset of quests.

There are others of us that appreciate a jack of all trades approach across the entire game.

It's obvious that DWS's Tier 5 abilities cater more to the ranged crowd. Heavy Draw, Improved Archer Focus, 20% doubleshot compared to 10% double-strike.

But of course, AA is the default "ranged" option for a ranged character, with the arrow of slaying.

But I can definitely see using DWS on a character that tries to use ranged AND melee fairly evenly.

To answer your question though, if you are primarily focused on melee, then Tempest is probably your best bet... That doesn't make DWS worthless though, as you imply.

[Grailhawk]

Theory-crafting ahead: pal 15 / rgr 5 SWF+Manyshot build. Dubya-Tee-Eff?! The premise is doublestrike bonuses are more valuable to SWF than TWF builds; plus if you're TWF, it's really hard to say no to Tempest instead of DWS. So the emphasis of this build is single-target DPS with a burst ranged option.

Pal 15 is for Zeal + Holy Sword, ofc. Rgr 5 is for two FE feats, 3 free ranged feats, and access to T5 DWS.

+45% Doublestrike: 10% Zeal + 10% Strikes like Lightning + 20% Killer + 5% PTWF (+95% w/Zeal of the Righteous)
+50% Doubleshot: 20% Strikes like Lightning + 20% Killer + 10% Doubleshot ED (+220% w/Manyshot +ZotR active)
+10 Ranged / Melee Power from Imp Archer's Focus + Versatile Adept
+11 dmg to FEs (4 FEs + Favored Hunter), another +3 from Thrill of the Hunt

W/out Harper you lose +5 Ranged / Melee Power and +2 FE dmg; but you can put those APs into KotC or Sacred D. instead.

Downsides: AoE melee DPS is lacking, needs to keep Killer charged, feats are tight, misses out on higher-level rgr goodies, Heavy Draw only affects bows


Better DPS than a 15/5 Tempest? No. But it's a change of pace.

Why do you think its better DPS the 15/5 Tempest? TWF with Dual Perfect is hard to beat IMO.

Interesting concept wonder if Stalker is a good enough tree that SWF 20 Range isn't a horrible idea.

[Thrudh]

This is spot on.

I'm also echoing the thoughts on DWS/AA tree. Once you get past giving up Slayer Arrow, having 45% base Doubleshot +20% Doubleshot from Killer from Enhancements is working out on my experimental AA build so far. I've gone for max Wisdom 'DC' build for Para Arrows and I'm planning to run in DC to get my Longbow crits upto 17-20/x4 - Sniper Shot & Headshot should make these some big numbers.

I might be tempted to post this build, its proving to be a lot more soloable than I could of imagined.

Good post.

[Arlathen]

I do understand that DWS allows you to still keep some serious damage from bow. But very careful strategies aside (kiting tough mobs, pulling, CCing a bit, and what not), it is hard to imagine the synergy between bow and sword.

As you said, a melee ranger will already dip into DWS for up to at least killer. So really, the higher tiers are just weaker for a melee than the tempest equivalents and that's most of the difference anyway.

As for the active abilities, except for the core ones, the others have such a long cool down that it is actually not that noticeable in game. One auto crit? 500 damage, yes, but every how many seconds? How is it that great to slow down a single mob every 15 seconds? It does not even slow the attack speed.

I do understand where blerk is coming from and I could see how it might be worthwhile if you have some trouble completing content, or even want to help your group. But for the majority of the game it appears to be a pure flavor decision.

My impression would be that given that the DWS gives up a lot on AoE (basically has non), it would need to pull ahead in single target. But it really does not, its melee is weaker. And coming back to my previous point, archery on a melee seems more of an extra careful approach and not so much like a truly synergistic approach as the game stands.

I think really my response to this is "It's entirely down to how much you want out of your Bow, and how you use it, as a Ranger".

One of the stand out comments here is that "DWS gives up a lot on AoE (basically has non)". This is entirely true - but all the bow abilities can be combined with Manyshot and IPS, abilities native to all Rangers.

I've learned over time how to use my Bow on even a melee-orientated Tempest Ranger with great effect. Pulling Mobs out of harms way, or pulling them to me to setup DoD opportunities, setting up large Manyshot/IPS DPS Burst damage situations, getting to Mobs that are perched on a ledge that other characters have difficulty in dealing with, taking a breather in a Raid to gain situational awareness of what's going on, doing Burst damage on two mobs at once (used to be FoT was a great example of this).... there's plenty of opportunity out there to get the bow out and exploit the Ranger's greatestasset: Versatility

This is such a difficult message to communicate in a game that favours you choose an option and go ''all out'' to make it a 95% success in 100% of situations. Imagine a DC-specced caster that tries to be a Vanguard. It's going to be pretty poor at both the melee combat style and the casting. A Ranger could be built to do both great Melee DPS and provide CC though (Tempest T5/AA T4). A Ranger can be built to have both great Ranged Damage options and pickup worthwhile melee & defensive options (AA T5, Tempest T2 / DWS T3).

My Tempest Ranger prefers a high-crit bow like Pinion (Manyshot/IPS crits for thousands of damage), but TF bows definitely have a place when combined with DWS abilities as well. Here's some examples:

• Headshot: It has a 12 second cooldown - that's less then Dance of Death, the same as Assassinate, and is definitely a worthy use on a Bow. My specific example for that Auto-Crit is with a TF Weapon - Your first shot is proccing Dragon's Edge Bleed damage and Crippling Flames Fire damage to every mob that you've lined up with that first IPS shot. It's also going to be dealing a very large amount of physical damage, and Blinding said enemies into the bargain. So thats 3-4 enemies that potentially are now given 50% miss chance and are easy for the party or yourself to pick off one by one at your discretion.
• Merciful Shot: Procs on Doubleshots (Tripleshots!) and magnified by both Ranged Power and your IPS ability. Well worth following up with this immediately after Headshot and Sniper Shot combo. While Blitzing on my Tempest Ranger, I've used this to do thousands damage against several mobs at the right moment.
• Leg Shot: Backpedal while shooting and then IPS this down a line of mobs, and again you've just made several mobs easy targets to pick off or setup for more IPS-Combo shots. 10s Duration / 10s cooldown means you can use this as an effective CC tactic if necessary, although
• Headstrike: For a melee-orientated Ranger, same ability, same utility, but up close and personal. You can hit a mob with a lot of raw damage right up front with the first swing with the same styled TF weapon similar to the example above, and again finish off with an Exposing Strike and Merciful Strike.
• Merciful Strike: Will proc on Offhand attacks, any Doublestrikes, and even on Dance of Death attacks (although thats very hard judge on DoD). It's also magnified by Melee Power. I've occasionally hit this on my blitzing Tempest Ranger and done 10K damage to a single target with it when well timed.

So, personally, I disagree DWS is a flavour tree. It has worthwhile options. But then I think that's down to me seeing the opportunity of every ability in the tree, and how I factor these abilities into my personal game play. Even my Max-Wis / High Dex AA/DWS toon is enjoying these options - I can't paralyze everything in the game, but often I can Blind and Slow those mobs instead, and I can DPS with my Melee Weapons if I need to. After already taking Precision, I only really had to take Weapon Finesse & IC: Pierce to make my Melee abilities more than useful.

In summary:

• If you just want head rush every mob with max Melee DPS, go pure Ranger, go 43 AP Tempest, 31AP DWS, Blitz in LD, leave your Bow in the bank and feel free to ignore everything I've just said with my blessing
• Or you can remember that Rangers are like Onions - they have so many layers, options and ways of building them they make you cry :')

I want to keep waxing lyrical, but I've said enough I think!

[Thrudh]

I do understand that DWS allows you to still keep some serious damage from bow. But very careful strategies aside (kiting tough mobs, pulling, CCing a bit, and what not), it is hard to imagine the synergy between bow and sword.

Another thing that bugs me is that those "very careful strategies" are the whole reason to go hybrid.

So your argument is, if you exclude all the useful parts of ranged from the discussion, then you've now proven that ranged isn't worth much?

[Arlathen]

You're right, but i do think a 20 ranger with Repeater and Bow (for manyshot only) is a better ranged toon then a Monkchar. The real issue is IMO is the bow.

Can we finally circumvent this though? I've been looking at the standard poor rate of fire on a Bow and my current thinking is:

• 25% Ranged Alacrity (Enhancement) on Epic Sapphire Sting
• 10% Ranged Alacrity (Competence) from Gilvaenors Set
• 10% Ranged Attack Speed: Echoes of the Shiradi Champion (Stacking?)
• BAB28 in Divine Crusader (yeah, I just heard you groan)...

That's a peice of Loot that only exists on paper, a T4 Twist, two gear slots filled with otherwise fairly useless mods (A bit of Heal Amp on Ring is nice), and a unconventional/un-popular destiny choice...

Still, is it enough?...

[BigErkyKid]

I think really my response to this is "It's entirely down to how much you want out of your Bow, and how you use it, as a Ranger".

One of the stand out comments here is that "DWS gives up a lot on AoE (basically has non)". This is entirely true - but all the bow abilities can be combined with Manyshot and IPS, abilities native to all Rangers.

I've learned over time how to use my Bow on even a melee-orientated Tempest Ranger with great effect. Pulling Mobs out of harms way, or pulling them to me to setup DoD opportunities, setting up large Manyshot/IPS DPS Burst damage situations, getting to Mobs that are perched on a ledge that other characters have difficulty in dealing with, taking a breather in a Raid to gain situational awareness of what's going on, doing Burst damage on two mobs at once (used to be FoT was a great example of this).... there's plenty of opportunity out there to get the bow out and exploit the Ranger's greatestasset: Versatility

This is such a difficult message to communicate in a game that favours you choose an option and go ''all out'' to make it a 95% success in 100% of situations. Imagine a DC-specced caster that tries to be a Vanguard. It's going to be pretty poor at both the melee combat style and the casting. A Ranger could be built to do both great Melee DPS and provide CC though (Tempest T5/AA T4). A Ranger can be built to have both great Ranged Damage options and pickup worthwhile melee & defensive options (AA T5, Tempest T2 / DWS T3).

My Tempest Ranger prefers a high-crit bow like Pinion (Manyshot/IPS crits for thousands of damage), but TF bows definitely have a place when combined with DWS abilities as well. Here's some examples:

• Headshot: It has a 12 second cooldown - that's less then Dance of Death, the same as Assassinate, and is definitely a worthy use on a Bow. My specific example for that Auto-Crit is with a TF Weapon - Your first shot is proccing Dragon's Edge Bleed damage and Crippling Flames Fire damage to every mob that you've lined up with that first IPS shot. It's also going to be dealing a very large amount of physical damage, and Blinding said enemies into the bargain. So thats 3-4 enemies that potentially are now given 50% miss chance and are easy for the party or yourself to pick off one by one at your discretion.
• Merciful Shot: Procs on Doubleshots (Tripleshots!) and magnified by both Ranged Power and your IPS ability. Well worth following up with this immediately after Headshot and Sniper Shot combo. While Blitzing on my Tempest Ranger, I've used this to do thousands damage against several mobs at the right moment.
• Leg Shot: Backpedal while shooting and then IPS this down a line of mobs, and again you've just made several mobs easy targets to pick off or setup for more IPS-Combo shots. 10s Duration / 10s cooldown means you can use this as an effective CC tactic if necessary, although
• Headstrike: For a melee-orientated Ranger, same ability, same utility, but up close and personal. You can hit a mob with a lot of raw damage right up front with the first swing with the same styled TF weapon similar to the example above, and again finish off with an Exposing Strike and Merciful Strike.
• Merciful Strike: Will proc on Offhand attacks, any Doublestrikes, and even on Dance of Death attacks (although thats very hard judge on DoD). It's also magnified by Melee Power. I've occasionally hit this on my blitzing Tempest Ranger and done 10K damage to a single target with it when well timed.

So, personally, I disagree DWS is a flavour tree. It has worthwhile options. But then I think that's down to me seeing the opportunity of every ability in the tree, and how I factor these abilities into my personal game play. Even my Max-Wis / High Dex AA/DWS toon is enjoying these options - I can't paralyze everything in the game, but often I can Blind and Slow those mobs instead, and I can DPS with my Melee Weapons if I need to. After already taking Precision, I only really had to take Weapon Finesse & IC: Pierce to make my Melee abilities more than useful.

In summary:

• If you just want head rush every mob with max Melee DPS, go pure Ranger, go 43 AP Tempest, 31AP DWS, Blitz in LD, leave your Bow in the bank and feel free to ignore everything I've just said with my blessing
• Or you can remember that Rangers are like Onions - they have so many layers, options and ways of building them they make you cry :')

I want to keep waxing lyrical, but I've said enough I think!

This and some other posts in this thread are pure gold. I am very happy I started this discussion, I am pretty sure this is not only helpful for me but also for other people playing rangers in general. Some good tips that I will try to keep in mind while adjusting my ranger.


While those are very good comments, I do want to warn the reader though that it remains my impression that this is mostly good for quests where one cannot simply OP the encounters. Unfortunately those are scarce in the game.

Thanks guys!

[Grailhawk]

Can we finally circumvent this though? I've been looking at the standard poor rate of fire on a Bow and my current thinking is:

• 25% Ranged Alacrity (Enhancement) on Epic Sapphire Sting
• 10% Ranged Alacrity (Competence) from Gilvaenors Set
• 10% Ranged Attack Speed: Echoes of the Shiradi Champion (Stacking?)
• BAB28 in Divine Crusader (yeah, I just heard you groan)...

That's a peice of Loot that only exists on paper, a T4 Twist, two gear slots filled with otherwise fairly useless mods (A bit of Heal Amp on Ring is nice), and a unconventional/un-popular destiny choice...

Still, is it enough?...

Tenser scrolls can get you the BAB to open up your Destiny choice.

Other then that that's interesting.

[Basura_Grande]

There are plenty of quests where having a strong ranged option is very useful.

And there are plenty of quests where it doesn't help at all.

From your history of posting, you are usually focused only on the current end-game Epic Elite quests. So maybe giving up a little melee DPS for some ranged DPS doesn't make sense to you, since you are looking at a small subset of quests.

There are others of us that appreciate a jack of all trades approach across the entire game.

The rest of the game is too easy to even care.

[Thrudh]

The rest of the game is too easy to even care.

Looking at your post history, I see you are complaining about the few quests that are actually hard and asking them to be made easier.

Nice.

[Basura_Grande]

You're right, but i do think a 20 ranger with Repeater and Bow (for manyshot only) is a better ranged toon then a Monkchar.

INT to damage from Harper?

The real issue is IMO is the bow.

yes, Turbine dropped the ball on this.

[Arlathen]

Tenser scrolls can get you the BAB to open up your Destiny choice.

Other then that that's interesting.

Tensers is a good idea.

For me, Divine Crusader is non-negotiable, as I want +6 Wisdom, the +1 Crit Range and some of the other tricks and traps on my AA/DWS*.

Para-arrowing every mob and dropping a Consecration on their head? Oh yes.

* Is it me, or is it pointless just saying 'Ranger' now when referring to your character, as the options available could mean anything?

[Grailhawk]

INT to damage from Harper?

If Improved Weapon Fineness cant be used then, yes. Costs 4 more AP then I would want to spend in that tree but I can live with that.

Actually the ap don't work for that you cant have 41/31/12 4 to many AP ...

I could be wrong about the Repeater/Bow user. Giving up the Crit multiplier from AA is not a option.

[Grailhawk]

Tensers is a good idea.

For me, Divine Crusader is non-negotiable, as I want +6 Wisdom, the +1 Crit Range and some of the other tricks and traps on my AA/DWS*.

Para-arrowing every mob and dropping a Consecration on their head? Oh yes.

* Is it me, or is it pointless just saying 'Ranger' now when referring to your character, as the options available could mean anything?

DC is a good ED just kind of sucks being locked into one for a build IMO

Ranger is and has always been a very versatile class.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

stalker would be a lot better if content was more difficult, and also more balanced so that being a hybrid character was actually useful (and not in the way that old blitz centered kensei robuts were good/useful as hybrids...that was just domination...).

they really shouldve made called shot no longer a multi selector, and grant both abilities with separate cds, and also autogrant quickdraw somewhere in the tree.

increasing the specialized bonuses theme wouldve been good too.


instead they just threw some double strike in there...

and its also weird how this tree has a considerable number of active ranged attacks, more than aa i think even...

[Kodwraith]

I'm futzing around with this exact dilemma on Xanxibar right now. Respeccing all my enhancements is costing me crazy plat.

TL;DR There really isn't an optimal layout that gets your everything unless you have 120 AP. Arlathan is absolutely right: It's all about versatility and how you use your bow.

The 5 (and a half) trees to consider are:
SacredD, where you want at least 11 for the PRR stance and possibly more for the +%HP
Tempest, where you want at least 40ish for lots of melee and put your T5
DWS, where you want the T5s
AA, where you want Paralyzing Arrows and possibly slayer arrows.
Harper / KotC for some kind of stat to + damage clicky (DM or KtA).

Oh and your racial tree.

Melee Heavy: Tempest T5, DoD + KOTC + SD loadout, you can do ridiculous melee damage with almost nothing left over for AA or DWS.
In this mode I'm meleeing way more and Multishot is much less useful, but my melee is only about 20% behind the zerging Barb. I'm doing around 1k crits with stupid attack speed and ridiculous AoE from DoD.

Archer Heavy: DWS T5, AA paralyzing, remainder into KotC for Divine Might. Whatever you have left into whatever you can. In this mode I was astounded how much crit dmg I was doing. I've seen 4.8k crits under double dmg boost. And I basically never pull out my swords because I can usually kill / paralyze things before they get to me. Did I mention 4.8k crits? And I'm not really getting hit all that much.


What I've concluded is it comes down to how much you want to balance Melee, Ranged and Defensive. And Turbine seems reluctant to make a 30th level feat that gives you more AP. I can somewhat verify that DWS is a better overall tree for Archery than AA if for no other reason than you're somewhat out of filler in AA by the time you hit Paralyzing Arrows. And if you're only a 6 ranger, the T5 20% double shot is your main double shot bonus. I can also inda verify OP's original question. For melee, Tempest is ridiculously good. DWS is also great but Tempest is better.


The good news is the feat list is about the same no matter what you pick: PBS, ImpCrit x2 (melee/ranged), khopesh (maybe), ImpPS, Precision, PA, OC, Combat Archery.

What I've found is the 14/6 split lets you completely go crazy in any of these 3 areas with just spending more plat. I've spent a lot of plat.

[unbongwah]

What I've concluded is it comes down to how much you want to balance Melee, Ranged and Defensive.

So...you can't be the best at everything? Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and call that WAI.

[Ganak]

For my 20 Elf Ranger TWF Dex based scimitar build.

Tempest for capstone and tier 5 enhancements for Melee focused for certain.

And for melee absolutely 31+ points in DWS.

Exposed strike is off the charts good, An attack with a 6 second cooldown and 4 sec of being able to sneak attack adds significant dps.
Exposing Strike: On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

Mark of the Hunter is worth it. The fort bypass bonuses for long crit range scimitar hits are sweet.

Survivalist is a cool line, and my light armor prr is respectable.

Killer is great. Thrill of the Hunt is easily kept up damage boost.