Enchant DC Breaking Point

[Legic]

I'm coming back to the game after an eight month break and am very interested in the Warlock class. Most builds I've seen on the forums don't mention enchantment spells in the breakdown.

Is it possible to land Dance/holds on EE endgame mobs reliably with a warlock? I have 3 of most PLs/completionist(well I will after I grind out a quick warlock life -_-) and have calculated reaching 60-65 enchant DC without sacrificing other aspects of the build.

DC Breakdown

16 base
26 charisma
1 feat
3 Exalted Angel core
5 item
2 augment
2 insightful(Band Immaterial)
1 profane
1 ship
3 Magister twist

=60

This breakdown assumes only 1 spell focus feat, 2 charisma from exalted angel, and no "Great Ability" feats.

Assuming the use of Mind Fog, how effective is a 60 DC Dancing Ball/Mass Hold in this endgame?

Thanks in advance!

[Thalone]

I have personally found 60 to be a low Enchant for higher-end epics (like Gianthold, Stormhorns), even with debuffs like Mind Fog/Hypnotism/Crushing Despair. However, there are many posts on the forums which assert that 60 Enchant is like turning on god mode. And when I asked a Monkcher recently about his paralyzing arrow DC, he said he had a 68 and that was grabbing a lot of stuff in the EE Gambit quests (though I don't think the archer arrows have to contend with Epic Resilience).

I think I got my PM up to 67 Enchant before I decided it was pointless the way DC casting is currently and TRed her, and that was not satisfactorily reliable, in my opinion (but I don't like wasting resources on debuffs).

Have you accounted for the Exalted Angel aura giving +2 CHA? Aura of Menace in the ES tree giving a +2 effective DC? Have you considered the new Orb (+2 Quality DC)? If you don't have a Litany, casters can fit the Devil's Handiwork set for another +3 to all stats. Have you considered crafting a tier 2 Thunder-Forged DC stick (+6 DC, +1 more if two-handed)? They can be crafted with purchased ingredients and are ML 26.

[Legic]

I have personally found 60 to be a low Enchant for higher-end epics (like Gianthold, Stormhorns), even with debuffs like Mind Fog/Hypnotism/Crushing Despair. However, there are many posts on the forums which assert that 60 Enchant is like turning on god mode. And when I asked a Monkcher recently about his paralyzing arrow DC, he said he had a 68 and that was grabbing a lot of stuff in the EE Gambit quests (though I don't think the archer arrows have to contend with Epic Resilience).

I think I got my PM up to 67 Enchant before I decided it was pointless the way DC casting is currently and TRed her, and that was not satisfactorily reliable, in my opinion (but I don't like wasting resources on debuffs).

Have you accounted for the Exalted Angel aura giving +2 CHA? Aura of Menace in the ES tree giving a +2 effective DC? Have you considered the new Orb (+2 Quality DC)? If you don't have a Litany, casters can fit the Devil's Handiwork set for another +3 to all stats. Have you considered crafting a tier 2 Thunder-Forged DC stick (+6 DC, +1 more if two-handed)? They can be crafted with purchased ingredients and are ML 26.

This is all awesome information. Thanks very much for the reply.

I suppose I should take my DCs into the high 60s if I'm even going to bother with enchantment. Good to know that there are a lot of ways to raise the DC that I didn't take into account.

[SirValentine]

I have personally found 60 to be a low Enchant for higher-end epics (like Gianthold, Stormhorns), even with debuffs like Mind Fog/Hypnotism/Crushing Despair. However, there are many posts on the forums which assert that 60 Enchant is like turning on god mode. And when I asked a Monkcher recently about his paralyzing arrow DC, he said he had a 68 and that was grabbing a lot of stuff in the EE Gambit quests (though I don't think the archer arrows have to contend with Epic Resilience).

Well, the devs did recently reveal that casters are at a -6 DC disadvantage compared to non-spell DCs, as epic mobs in a lot of content have a (no longer hidden) +6 to saves versus spells. (See Epic Resilience on wiki or Vargouille's post about it.) If they don't get that +6 versus the paralyzing arrows, that would explain the difference.

Kind of like the big disconnect there used to be between what Assassinate & Stunning Fist DCs people said worked great versus what I experienced with spells at similar DCs attacking the same save. When they revealed that thing about the save bonus versus spells, it all made sense, in a sad way.

[CThruTheEgo]

I have personally found 60 to be a low Enchant for higher-end epics (like Gianthold, Stormhorns), even with debuffs like Mind Fog/Hypnotism/Crushing Despair. However, there are many posts on the forums which assert that 60 Enchant is like turning on god mode.

With a 61 DC on the Count of Monte Cristo (link in sig), god mode was my experience in EE Gianthold, Wheloon, Stormhorns, etc. It made quests like Breaking the Ranks and Lines of Supply a walk in the park, and that was before many of the revamps, so we didn't have half a dozen OP classes at the time.

I haven't played the build for a while due to focusing on other characters, so I honestly don't know how it performs in newer content. From what I have heard, DC requirements have gone up but the real problem is spell penetration. I'm contemplating dropping the emphasis on enchantment DCs on that build because of this.

[CThruTheEgo]

I just found this thread. It shows the results of some spell pen testing starting with post #5.

[slarden]

The current end game has DC and Spell Penetration requirements. My original warlock build used enchantment DC at worked really well at the time warlock came out. However, DC requirements jumped with eShavarath and now alot of the end game content also have spell penetration requirements.

The problem warlocks have is that their best destiny for DC is exalted angel, but you don't get any bonus caster levels there which add to spell penetration. If you go to an arcane destiny you lose the DC bonuses from Exalted Angel. Also, warlocks have no quality or spooky bonuses to charisma and that is the only stat that doesn't either have spooky or quality bonus available with a single or 2-piece set. So for int you can get a cloak with +3 quality bonus and get a +2 spooky int bonus from an augment. Wizards have all the bonus feats so if you want to make an enchanter wizard is much better.

Also warlocks have 2 feats for Eld Blast dice at epic levels and you really need those for dps. So with all the great epic feats for casters, it's going to be really tight to fit in DC and dps.

So all in all feat-starved warlocks don't make very good DC casters except for evocation which is basically their blast and any related aura/slas. They can get a really high eld blast DC with evocation augmentation.

Warlocks are great blasters and I have been toying with the crazy idea of taking the ED feat dire charge and gearing up stunning items and one twist for that rather than enchantment or even Evards. Evards worked well prior to U29, but doesn't work well in U29 LE content. Saves and SP requirements were reduced from the original lam build, but not stats.

So if you want a solid dps survivabile blaster - warlock is it. If you want an enchantment DC caster with solid DPS warlock is not the best for that.

However, with the addition of the feat master of knowledge - Archmage wizard can be exactly that and I have been noodling on an 18 wizard 2 fvs archmage high DC enchanter/blaster using master of knowledge, arcane bolt/blast, magic missle and chain missle slas, arcane pulse, etc. along with cold damage from draconic. I think that will be a much better build than a warlock enchanter. 2 fvs gets you a little damage and just reward, scourge for a small dps boost and spell point regen from the lot cost SLAs and unmeta'd low cost magic missle, chain missle, force missle non-sla spells. I am not sure how feasible it will be without the past lifes for spell pen bonuses, but with the past lifes it will certainly be a solid build.