Level 30 and your Epic TRs

[EllisDee37]

Don't know why you brought up heroic. I was talking about epic. You really are saying there was no discussions on some people not liking the raise in xp and reincarnating saying how painful it would be?

Yes, I really am saying that. The xp requirements for ETR were never raised. Ever.

[Qhualor]

We did not all know cap was going up to 30 for several years. YOU and probably anyone that regularly reads all of the forums did. I found out maybe 6 months ago from a random post I read. How many casual players do you think constantly read all of the forums? There's nothing in game that lets casual players know about this.

There in lies the problem. Maybe the devs are hoping word of mouth will get information out into the game.

[Qhualor]

Yes, I really am saying that. The xp requirements for ETR were never raised. Ever.

There is a wiki page that shows how much xp is needed for each level. I suggest looking it up.

[EllisDee37]

There is a wiki page that shows how much xp is needed for each level. I suggest looking it up.

Why? ETR has always required 6.6 million xp. It's never been raised.

[Qhualor]

Why? ETR has always required 6.6 million xp. It's never been raised.

The levels have raised. That's the point I'm trying to make. When cap went to 28, some people wanted to reincarnate at 25. The same is being said now that some are suggesting to reincarnate at 28 when cap goes to 30. They dont want to have to go an extra 2 levels. It doesn't matter if it's the same xp to reincarnate, it's the raising of levels. With those levels comes xp that you need to earn to get to the next level.

[EllisDee37]

To recap, the "punishment argument" goes like this: Veterans were able to gain epic past lives for 6.6 million xp each for two years. If that's now raised to 10+ million, the only result is a punishment to newer and casual players who now have to grind almost twice as much for the same result.

In response, you said:

It's not a punishment. We have known a couple years that cap will be eventually 30. The same "punishment" argument was used when cap became 25 and again at 28. Past lives are optional, not a requirement. It's up to the individual player if they think it's worth the grind.

Which is just wrong on so many levels.

First, nobody ever said that when the level cap was raised from 20 to 25. I can't believe you cited that. There was no epic xp at all when the level cap was 20. Epic xp was first introduced when the cap went to 25. I can't figure out why you think people made this argument when the cap went to 25.

When the cap was 25, there was no point in gaining epic levels. Nobody felt they had to grind epic levels. The grind was for fate points. The problem was that epic levels were largely pointless. A level 20 with destinies and twists squared away was far mor powerful than a 25 without them.

When the cap was raised to 28, they added ETR for the first time. Now, finally, we had a reason to level to cap.

Now with the raise to 30, for the first time ever, we're having to run more xp for the same past life benefits than we used to. That's never happened before, not even for heroic TR. Past life requirements have gone down, but they've never gone up.

EDIT: I only joined the game in 2011, so if we could TR when the cap was 12 or 16, I stand corrected. That was before my time.

[Loromir]

When cap went to 28, some people wanted to reincarnate at 25.

Epic and Iconic Reincarnation was not possible when cap was 25. So no would could legitimately claim it was punishment.

[Loromir]

EDIT: I only joined the game in 2011, so if we could TR when the cap was 12 or 16, I stand corrected. That was before my time.

Reincarnation didn't exist before lvl cap of 20.

[Shoemaker]

Okay... So, I've done the maths...

Level	Current System	Proposed System	Scaled to make new 30 == current 28
Increment =	150K per level	125K per level	101.53846K per level
Base for	level 21	times 2	is increment
21	300,000 / 300,000	250,00 / 250,000	203,077 / 203,077
22	450,000 / 750,000	375,000 / 625,000	304,615 / 507,692
23	600,000 / 1,350,000	500,000 / 1,125,000	406,154 / 913,846
24	750,000 / 2,100,000	625,000 / 1,750,000	507,692 / 1,421,538
25	900,000 / 3,000,000	750,000 / 2,500,000	609,231 / 2,030,769
26	1,150,000 / 4,150,000	875,000 / 3,375,000	710,769 / 2,741,538
27	1,300,000 / 5,450,000	1,000,000 / 4,375,000	812,308 / 3,553,846
28	1,450,000 / 6,600,000	1,125,000 / 5,500,000	913,846 / 4,467,692
29	1,600,000 / 8,200,000	1,250,000 / 6,750,000	1,015,385 / 5,483,077
30	1,750,000 / 9,950,000	1,375,000 / 8,125,000	1,116,923 / 6,600,000

So, my proposal is that they shave 25K off per level (doubled for 21 of course). Using my proposed system, level 29 will still be above the current level 28 (even if only by 150K) and I don't think that 1.375M is too much XP to get from 29 to 30 (it's less than the current 1.45M to get from 27 to 28). This proposal will also make up for some of the XP lost by being unable to bank it waiting for this cap increase.

[Gurei23]

~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

If you feel like you have to WARN your player base before you make a change, chances are the change isn't in the player's best interests. I sincerely hope you take the thread I made 6 weeks ago seriously, Varg didn't want it discussed until it was being discussed by the devs, so here it is. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...TR-ITR-Concern

It's not a punishment. We have known a couple years that cap will be eventually 30. The same "punishment" argument was used when cap became 25 and again at 28. Past lives are optional, not a requirement. It's up to the individual player if they think it's worth the grind.

This is a point Cordovan made in Twitch and it's about 1% relevant to the complaints and offers nothing but a fake argument for going through with a bad choice. There was no ERing or IRing when the cap was 25, there was no EPL or IPL until an update AFTER the level cap increase, lv 28 was established BEFORE ER/IR was implemented.

[maddong]

It wouldn't kill you to keep itr/etr at level 28. It is easier for people to fix characters that have been nerfed that way. You still have to bring at least 1 character to endgame to farm heart seeds unless heaven forbid the change leads to people spending tp at level 28 for their heart.

Not to mention the goodwill you get from the playerbase for not increasing their required level to itr/etr.

[FranOhmsford]

You probably wouldn't have.

When the cap was 25, we couldn't ETR. There was no point in gaining epic levels, really, other than getting the feats and higher ML gear. It certainly wasn't worth grinding out xp to level in epics. (Fate points was why people used to grind epics.)

When 28 was introduced and epic xp to cap went up from 3 million to 6.6 million, they finally gave us something to do: ETR. We were never able to ETR for only 3 million xp, the xp needed was never raised. (Until u29, sounds like.)

And all those people who did grind out their destinies and fate points while cap was 25 didn't have to worry about them when cap went up to 28.
So then with cap 28 they went straight to grinding out E-TRs.
There were also Cheese methods available - Rusted Blades!

Now those people when cap goes up to 30 will not need to worry about any of that - The grind is already done!
The rest of us however....!

[SoulDuster]

[QUOTE=GeoffWatson;5714071]How much more?
Levels 26-28 are already a grind on an ER, though IRs aren't as bad with the first time bonuses.
If the original plan of 3 million extra XP needed is still happening, that will be enough for me to quit

I run my toon to 20 in 3-5 days with all the 30 pots i have rolled 5 ship buff and 5 masters gift.

I run my toon to 28 in less than 48 hours the same way.

Never run any heroic quests that are epic capable.

Pulled 451K out of von5 first time thats huge xp for a 30 minute run with First time bonus BB and 40% on top of it.

If you can't save your virgin XP BB EE for Epic you should look at where your wasting your xp.

I did 9 ETR one life 9th was a grind but new xp available now so easy enuf once again.

Hit 20 Run all first time EE BB ETR IR whatever Run all EH or slayers you setup for quick leveling so much xp in this game it's not funny

20xp cap should be 5million

30xp cap should be 10million

unfortunately Turbine lowered this xp with Ottos boxes in mind

First life toon 1.9 mil xp - 1 otto box done 1 hour life TR reset timer provided

Second life 2.85 mil xp - 1 otto box small xp pot 1 hour life TR reset timer provided

Third life 3.8 mil xp - 1 otto box 50 pot 1 hour life TR reset timer provided

4th life toon 3.8 mil xp 36 point build 3 past lives

Wonder why the xp curve got lowered do some basic math it made Turbine money plain and simple

I ground out over two dozen lives at 4.3mil running to 20 and tr'ing immediately without any greensteel any otto's and no 50 pots I finished 7 lives to my guildies 1 TR mind you I was laid off and had a very effective system still do still works day in day out.

Quit wasting your Epic XP and it's easy to cap 28 I average over 200k per hour.

I am by no means an Uber or Elitist player I die plenty but I get back up and run it again and again til I figure out what works for me and my builds.

If you want to run with the Big Dogs Lead Follow or Get Outta the way.

Pike if you like but you deaths don't cost me XP anymore anyway

[Uska]

If you feel like you have to WARN your player base before you make a change, chances are the change isn't in the player's best interests. I sincerely hope you take the thread I made 6 weeks ago seriously, Varg didn't want it discussed until it was being discussed by the devs, so here it is. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...TR-ITR-Concern





This is a point Cordovan made in Twitch and it's about 1% relevant to the complaints and offers nothing but a fake argument for going through with a bad choice. There was no ERing or IRing when the cap was 25, there was no EPL or IPL until an update AFTER the level cap increase, lv 28 was established BEFORE ER/IR was implemented.

they stated right from the start when the cap was raised you would have to be cap'd to ETR it has been a known fact since ETR existed and its also know that more levels should take more xp

[Uska]

It wouldn't kill you to keep itr/etr at level 28. It is easier for people to fix characters that have been nerfed that way. You still have to bring at least 1 character to endgame to farm heart seeds unless heaven forbid the change leads to people spending tp at level 28 for their heart.

Not to mention the goodwill you get from the playerbase for not increasing their required level to itr/etr.

IT would be wrong to do so right from the very first its was stated ETR should be cap and that shouldnt change.

[Mirta]

Okay... So, I've done the maths...

Level	Current System	Proposed System	Scaled to make new 30 == current 28
Increment =	150K per level	125K per level	101.53846K per level
Base for	level 21	times 2	is increment
21	300,000 / 300,000	250,00 / 250,000	203,077 / 203,077
22	450,000 / 750,000	375,000 / 625,000	304,615 / 507,692
23	600,000 / 1,350,000	500,000 / 1,125,000	406,154 / 913,846
24	750,000 / 2,100,000	625,000 / 1,750,000	507,692 / 1,421,538
25	900,000 / 3,000,000	750,000 / 2,500,000	609,231 / 2,030,769
26	1,150,000 / 4,150,000	875,000 / 3,375,000	710,769 / 2,741,538
27	1,300,000 / 5,450,000	1,000,000 / 4,375,000	812,308 / 3,553,846
28	1,450,000 / 6,600,000	1,125,000 / 5,500,000	913,846 / 4,467,692
29	1,600,000 / 8,200,000	1,250,000 / 6,750,000	1,015,385 / 5,483,077
30	1,750,000 / 9,950,000	1,375,000 / 8,125,000	1,116,923 / 6,600,000

So, my proposal is that they shave 25K off per level (doubled for 21 of course). Using my proposed system, level 29 will still be above the current level 28 (even if only by 150K) and I don't think that 1.375M is too much XP to get from 29 to 30 (it's less than the current 1.45M to get from 27 to 28). This proposal will also make up for some of the XP lost by being unable to bank it waiting for this cap increase.

Not too shabby. I could see this working well.

How about ER requires 6.6 million karma xp only?
Once you over level 20, you can ER anytime if you have 6.6 million karma.

This. Why do we need to be max level when it only takes 6mil karma anyways? There is no legitimate reason not to let us bank karma and spend it at will. Hell, it would probably even encourage people to run more stuff at cap, including raids.

[SoulDuster]

Took me 2 count them 2 Iconic Shadari-Ki lives to cap my rouge toon ED's completely out in all 12 spheres.

Remove the word CAN'T from your vocabulary

casual players should be the last players worried about xp bb or anything else in this game

they come they go they return that is why they are casual

I ground out my triple in 17 months minus my warlocks now but ETR's are far more important at this stage of the game anyway

[JOTMON]

~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

would be nice if you could set it up so that we can take multiple spheres and cash them in when doing a n ER from 30 back to 20.
I am running into situations where all my spheres are capped and every time I ER I am wasting/losing XP.

[Qhualor]

Epic and Iconic Reincarnation was not possible when cap was 25. So no would could legitimately claim it was punishment.

This is a point Cordovan made in Twitch and it's about 1% relevant to the complaints and offers nothing but a fake argument for going through with a bad choice. There was no ERing or IRing when the cap was 25, there was no EPL or IPL until an update AFTER the level cap increase, lv 28 was established BEFORE ER/IR was implemented.

I know this. Producer Glin told us the future plans of epic, iconic and heroic reincarnation back in june 2013 for level 28 https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=reincarnation there were posts made by some players that said it would be too grindy to have to level to 28 to reincarnate and wanted to be able to do it at level 25. there were many posts after this announcement while cap was still level 25 over the next several months about this.

this is the point I am making. that players disliked the increased levels so they can do a reincarnation. again, now with level 30 almost here, the same thing is being said. players dislike having to earn 2 more levels to reincarnate and want to continue doing it at level 28.

[Blastyswa]

~ Just a reminder that epic levels are increasing to level 30 with Update 29, so if you are working on an Epic character for the purpose of a true reincarnation you might want to level before update 29 as it will be take more XP when you can go to level 30.

~ Yes, we have read the question about what happens when a level 28 character starts a reincarnation and then the level is increased. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

(Last two paragraphs are my suggestions if in a rush, everything before it is support)
I very much hope the xp needed, at least for Epic Reincarnation, stays at 6.6m. As it is, I can take a character from level 20-28 with about 30 hours of gameplay at my best judgement. That's with ENx2 Von 3, 4, Spies, Wiz-King, OoB, WGU, Mirror, an EE GH Pass, and some other eveningstar saga questing typically. While I don't think it is particularly difficult to get to that amount of xp, it is also not very fun. I'm actually leaving my mega completionist character (3x heroic/iconic, 1x epic) at only one epic completionist pass through ETRs, just because of how utterly boring it is. It's not much fun, nor is it practical, to run more difficult content for far less xp/min when the sole purpose of leveling is just to repeat the process, and I still have a dozen alts that need epic completionist.

When the level cap is raised, which I very much look forward to, I hope that Epic Reincarnation is not killed in the process. There simply is not enough xp in the game as is to make it fun to go from 20-28, much less 20-30. Let me emphasize the word fun in that statement. It is certainly possible to put in 3 hours a day for about a week doing ENx2 quests, and reincarnate fairly often. At that rate it would take approximately 3 months to get epic completionist, about the same time it takes to make a Mortal Fear item without raid timers/friends passing ingredients. That time table is perfectly acceptable; however, keep in mind that at this point the game becomes less of "Can't wait to go play some DDO" and more like "Sorry, I need to get my 3 hours in for a past life". I personally am not a fan at all of the second scenario.

I would hope that when the level cap rises, which it most certainly will and which is most certainly welcomed, it will be accompanied by one of three things. One way to make/keep epic reincarnation reasonable would be simply to rebalance the currently needed xp all the way to level 30, and perhaps make it a little less curved. This would make epic reincarnations essentially take the same time, operating under the assumption that most players can complete menial xp grinding quests in similar times even with suboptimal gearing (being lower level). A second way, one which I consider preferable to the first, would be keep epic reincarnation at 28 and increase the level cap to 30. This would keep epic reincarnation completely unchanged, and make levels 29-30 the levels of the endgamer; I would even be in favor of then making those levels either take quite a bit more experience (less preferable) or do something like make each quest only count for experience once per day, or once period, in those levels. This would help to make level 30 mean more that the character at that level is parked, and didn't just run the xp train a few extra days.

The other option, which has likely been stated before and that I believe would be the optimal solution, in addition to being able to be implemented alongside another change, would be to raise the experience of other quests. The nerfing of the current xp farm quests would not be an acceptable solution; questing is done on these quests primarily because the xp for time from then vastly exceeds that from many other quests. Increasing experience on other quests would be a good way to make epic reincarnations have more than one good way to do them; instead of everyone running variations on the same 10-20 quests, other quests could be ran as well. To accomplish proper xp scaling, I would take a sampling of several thousand random players from the active playerbase from levels 20-28 (Not from the forums, and not volunteers) give them a special login key to Lammania while it is down for everyone else, and give them a week or so with the request that they try and run as many different quests as they can. Characters from the live server would be copied over for them to use; after the end of the week, if they ran on the server, offer something along the lines of an epic experience stone as recompense for doing so. Basically, give the testers a free ETR for running all the quests. Then, using the information from the completion times of quests, which would range from short to long due to the random sampling method getting semi-casuals, forum paladins, and average players alike, determine xp amounts for each quest that would give them all similar xp/minute. This is not reducing quests to all being the same or anything silly like that; instead, what it does is makes running the snitch just as good on xp (typically) as running devil assault, or chains of flame, or Tomb of the Wizard King. In the end, that leads to more options in questing, as people can run other quests without feeling a sense of "wastage" because they aren't maximizing the xp they get in that time.

That's my two cents on this matter.