Level 30 and your Epic TRs

[Thrudh]

Because when I run good old Waterworks for the uptenth time, it has been 2-4 months since I ran Waterworks, so nostalgia kicks in and I can enjoy it.

This is me too... I do a heroic TR, then 2-3 epic TRs, then back to heroic... During the 2-3 epic TRs, I barely repeat anything. There's a ton of content in the 20-28 range, especially if you have reset all explorer/slayer areas.

Each TR takes me about a month...

So I run a heroic TR, get up to epic levels, run 2-3 epic TRs without repeating a quest, then heroic TR again... It is literally at least 3 months between each repeat of a quest for me. This game is not grindy at all with my playstyle... I change my character every heroic TR to something different and new, and the quests are not boring because I'm not repeating the same 30 best xp/min quests over and over every 5 days.

[Thrudh]

It was presented to them on the 2014 PC. Sadly the Dev's seem to think people ETR in off destinies for fun. The truth is people ETR in off destinies because they are forced to with nothing else in the game to do. This leads to EN 2X VON3/Wizking/Spies/Mirror daily LFM phenomenon where they simply log in do daily's and log out afterward as the most common way to compensate for not having fun in those destinies.

The problem has never been that those quests have great XP, the problem is that DDO is literally designed to be less fun for weeks and months at a time, and those quests are the path of least resistance in mitigating this unfun as quickly as possible with the lowest exposure time to the off destiny. The same way that standing on a bell minimized off Destiny XP exposure time, or cheezing the Drow priestess minimized it.

People do things the Dev's don't like, because the Dev's make systems the players don't enjoy so they just want to be done with it and get it out of the way.

The Dev's look at the symptoms (those quests) and say "we need to nerf that behavour" when they should be asking themselves what causes people to want to do that behavour. If the system of off destiny leveling was FUN a lot less people would be trying to mitigate it by running 4 to 8 EN's a day then logging.

I always liked the heroic and epic TR past-life system because they were so front-loaded. Easy to get 80% of the benefits with very little work, but there was ALSO something for the power-gamers to do. The problem is that the power-gamers apparently believe they MUST have their characters "finished" or the game is no fun.

The rest of us understand that "grinding" to "finish" a character is not fun, so we just play the game normally, enjoying the game-play of the hundreds of different quests using different characters that play differently each time through... The powergamers play the same wk/spies/von3 or saga quests over and over and over, and then blame the devs for their ridiculous stupid choices. But maybe you are right. Maybe the devs should have designed the game differently recognizing that a subset of powergamers really just cannot help themselves and are helpless to avoid unfun activities.

[Basura_Grande]

I always liked the heroic and epic TR past-life system because they were so front-loaded.

While that may have been true a few years ago that changed with ETR. Epic Completionist + all PRR, all damage, and all HP lives is more than a little more powerful. It's power addition is enough to break an semblance of class balance.

Ironclan's right on this, too much of this game is designed INTENTIONALLY to not be fun with the gratification delayed. ETRing in off-destinies just plain sucks, put enough stuff in a game like that and we should be shocked at DDO's rate of player attrition.

[SoulDuster]

Ah yes.

Here is the thing. People won't and don't. They find different games and then people like you complain the servers are empty and no one is playing.

This means less money for the game.

Which in turn means less content, which in turn will lead to even less players until the game spirals to death.

So yes "just suck it up" is a recipe for success.

No one is asking (at least I'm not) for past lives to be 'given' to them as you keep saying. I just want a system that is friendlier to new and casual players and allow them to catch up and enjoy the same game experience you do, without having to 'buy' your way to the top through the store.

LoL you won't ever find me complaining the servers are empty. I run with a pretty solid group.

Considering all heroic lives are much easier to obtain than when I did how much friendlier do you want it for the ' new and casual ' crowd of players.....

XP boost days, Party XP, More slayers than ever, More F2P quests than ever, Daily Dice rolls, Slayer Pots, XP Pots - All No TP Required....

Easier How much easier do you want or need it. ---( Silver Platter )---

Otto boxes - Only item listed TP is needed for.

Something Earned is certainly worth more than something given. You want something go earn it. If you can't earn it you don't deserve it.

I rather enjoy playing my first life toons with no ED's and being fully capable of running EE quests. I didn't buy my way to the top. No one enjoys the game in the same way. Catch up ..... run faster if your racing ..... just cause you make it late to the Boston Marathon does not mean you get to handicap the people who got to the starting line first.

I'd be willing to bet I could run off a F2P toon to Heroic completionist in a single year with a single store purchase of 7.99 worth of points for Premium player only. Filling in ED's and obtaining my Epic completionist during the same time regardless of xp required. Only points I get to spend are what I obtain from Favor.

This sounds like and interesting challenge perhaps once I am prepared I will not only attempt this but certainly achieve it.

This would mean 15 heroic TR and 12 Etr no need for iconics those are optional.

Artificer needs 150 House C Favor - Free daily tokens no need to buy the class

Favored Soul 2500 Favor - Free class to play

Druid catch it on sale - Favor TP point purchase

Warlock catch it on sale - Favor TP point purchase

no need for 32 point build at start easy enough to get to 3rd life with no TP points spent.

Catch ED's on sale - Favor TP point purchase.

Any other packs on sale with favor TP point purchase.

I think this might be interesting to do a server with no guild, friends or people to drag me along as well. After all that would indeed set me up a truely new player.

Sure I know the quests, the xp locations but you have access to the wiki just like me.

Heading off to do some research for my next challenge I guess

I would also purchase WF for my own reasons. So at full TP pricing less than 6k TP to get premium I get 600 TP with 20% off sales I could obtain all my needs for this wtih free TP reaching 2500 favor over 7 lives and never spend another dime on DDO. Very easy very doable for anyone with the time that wants to put the effort forward. No extra packs but my base needs are met. After all wants, needs, desires, are not all that important to obtaining what your asking for. KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid is tried and true.

Care for a new challenge. SoulDuster's search for simplicity.

The kiss of death more xp needs will kill P2P DDO

Heroic XP curve dropped all Heroic XP needed by approximately 13.5%

Epic XP curve could be upped by about 13.5% and this sets level 30 xp at roughly 7.5mil

Not saying this is what should or will happened but it is fair in my eyes.

[Thrudh]

While that may have been true a few years ago that changed with ETR. Epic Completionist + all PRR, all damage, and all HP lives is more than a little more powerful. It's power addition is enough to break an semblance of class balance.

Maxing out EDs for fate points and twists, and even getting epic completionist isn't hard and gives you 80% of the power... Going on to max out the passive boosts (more hp, more PRR, etc) takes 2x as long for just 20% more benefit.

The game is so easy, none of that is required.

Ironclan's right on this, too much of this game is designed INTENTIONALLY to not be fun with the gratification delayed. ETRing in off-destinies just plain sucks, put enough stuff in a game like that and we should be shocked at DDO's rate of player attrition.

I think the devs thought they were being nice by putting it in so powergamers would have some extra gains while TRing farther than most of us... What they didn't realize was that powergamers would be compelled to do it, and ruin their own fun, night after night.

Also it's very easy to meta-game around off-destiny leveling... I'm amazed how BAD some powergamers are at meta-gaming this game... Who actually grinds through 3-9 arcane lives as a melee? Use saga xp there, slayer/explorer xp (There's a ton of this!), an occasional spies/wiz-king/von3 run (you don't have to do these every night!). First-time challenges give out good xp. The new Mabar event handed out a decent amount of xp, especially the first run through, and the quests are so easy you could easily do them in an off-destiny.

The real trick is to alternate running in your primary destiny with the stuff above in the off-destiny. For some reason some powergamers think they have to get 6 million exp straight in off-destiny and then come here and complain about it.

I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved... I think the suggestion that people could gain off-destiny xp (once all EDs are capped) at 25% or something while in your primary destiny is a good one.

But even with the current system there's no reason to have zero fun night after night after night grinding. There are easy workarounds for anyone who takes 10 seconds to think about it.

[Basura_Grande]

Maxing out EDs for fate points and twists, and even getting epic completionist isn't hard and gives you 80% of the power... Going on to max out the passive boosts (more hp, more PRR, etc) takes 2x as long for just 20% more benefit.

You're dismissing 9 EPLs as nothing - and you pretend to be a casual player?

Come to the darkside!!!!!

[EllisDee37]

Epic XP curve could be upped by about 13.5% and this sets level 30 xp at roughly 7.5mil

Not saying this is what should or will happened but it is fair in my eyes.

Agreed. I think 7.5 million to get to 30 is what it should be.

[Anaximandroz]

I only thinks the xp from 28 to 30 will feel wasted, because what you want is 6 millions karma to Er (if you are in the tr train that 600k over already feel that way). Maybe if they make the cap 8 million and give one more destiny n each sphere...

[sjbb87]

Some points...
The turbine made it clear that with the epic reincarnations, when I got to level 30 would also rise to the level ER.
Already "late" a year that increase the level to 30.
If not picked up their Epic past life ... I am sorry ....

But I believe it should rebalance the xp curve

[Gljosh]

The way I have played this game....

Pre Motu play to 20 get some more favor, skip raids Heroic TR.
Post Motu play to 25, max out Destinies while getting my 20 Shroud completions, Heroic TR.
Post ETR, play to 28-ETR, play to 28 ETR, pay to 28 ETR, play to 28 ETR (currently I have 9/7/7/5 for ETRs), while getting some Raid completion, ITR or Heroic TR. Finally got 20 FoTs, close to 20 Chronos, far away from 20 Thunder Peaks.

ETRs made a great way for me to run more of the Epic Raids. I play on Orien and it gets hard to fill out raids (when I am playing) once the raid is a few months old, thank you Raid Bypass timers.

I am still waiting to hear the "benefit of raising the level cap". The current complaints are that most content is easy, how would adding two more levels of player power fix this? I remember quests being "end game" and once the level cap was raised they became laughably easier. Old Shroud runs almost required 2 healers and post in chat boss beaters for hard, now as long as you can cast Cocoon and have someone toss out some scrolls Elite is a cake walk.

[eachna_gislin]

If you're not a reigning monarch is is HIGHLY inappropriate to use the words "us" and "we" to describe YOUR PERSONAL opinion. Speak for yourself and ONLY for yourself.

Under both British and American English standard usage rules, it's appropriate to use the plural to indicate an individual is part of a group. They do not have to be a designated speaker for the group.

[RobbinB]

You're dismissing 9 EPLs as nothing - and you pretend to be a casual player?

Come to the darkside!!!!!

Truth. If I played only a single character, I would have about 25 epic past lives (so epic completionist and then some, yay!). Since I am compelled to play multiple characters (10 in total) because I like to have fun, the most EPLs I have on any one character is currently 6, so only half way to epic completionist. (And this pace will definitely slow down if they simply add a boat-load of xp per past-life.)

I play for an hour or 2 at least 6 days I week so I don't consider that casual either.

[RobbinB]

Varguile, something you guys might want to consider: Allow us to empty out multiple spheres for multiple PL feats on a single ETR. That way the XP we need to earn from 6,000,001 thru whatever you guys choose for the new cap doesn't feel like it's wasted.

I would definitely be ok with this and if they did this I wouldn't complain any longer about having to earn 2 extra levels before ETR becomes an option (although I think some players would still not be happy).

One of the things I hate about ETR is I have to spend the equivalent of one night of game time just going through that process, which really sucks when sometimes I'm just recreating the exact same toon. Having to do that 4 times less often would actually be pretty cool.

[elvesunited]

Well I've Iconic Reincarnated one high level and Epic-True Comboed another. So my highest level character currently is 23. So here is my hopes for the cap increase.

1) It isn't another false alarm.
2) That items max out minimum level at 28. Give us at least 2 levels to enjoy them before capping out.
3) New feats. Epic Destiny or otherwise. ( maybe some that require all three destinies in a sphere to be capped )
Example : Mythic spell focus : +2 DC ( requires level 29 + Epic spell focus )
4) Extra reward for iconic/true reincarnating from 30. ( maybe 2 extra build points to a max of 38 )

[Starla70]

A heads up as to when this will happen is much needed I agree.

[Kieriyn]

This interesting, but doesn't answer any questions or calm any fears.

I still want to know how you plan to balance newer/casual players who are indirectly punished by not grinding out past lives this very moment?

This is a false equivalence- lack of a temporary benefit does not equal punishment.

The fact is that we've known for some time that this was coming, and the devs are just giving us the courtesy of an explicit warning so we can get a couple of ETRs in before the cap goes up. The same kind of demands for accommodations were made when the level cap went up from 20 to 25 for Cannith Crafting weapons whose ML should have exceeded 20, but was capped. People whined that Turbine had. to. do. something. when they announced that the 1st new base in awhile (Artificer) was released- even though they knew ahead of time that the completionist feat would disappear when new classes came out until they finished the additional life. Turbine did the right thing and stuck to their guns in those instances, and hopefully will again.

[S3R3N1T7]

think it's time for me leave ddo because

monster chmpion splint new time player (stupidely implemented for content small portion of player elitist (no option for actived them if player want play with them because they know mass player don't want play with them)

and now lvl 30 splint new time player (new time elitist player will be happy but casual player leave the game now because they understand the game will become only for elitist player )

now ddo is not fun and i leave the game i will come show if they understand the error they do and correct the line of developpement or not ^^


because a mmo rpg need lot of player or he die and ddo is on on the die road

i have take good time with this game but champion kill my fun and know i show the lvl 30 who will broke definitively interaction with casual player, normal player and elitiste player.

[noinfo]

Further back, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5100345

I'm open to change. How about the L30 cap be scrapped altogether and leave things as they are and direct those energies to more new content?

Or go ahead with the level cap increase and scrap TR etc all together? No?

Sorry many of us want something to do at end game and progressing that does NOT involve regression.

[dunklezhan]

I always liked the heroic and epic TR past-life system because they were so front-loaded. Easy to get 80% of the benefits with very little work, but there was ALSO something for the power-gamers to do. The problem is that the power-gamers apparently believe they MUST have their characters "finished" or the game is no fun.

The rest of us understand that "grinding" to "finish" a character is not fun, so we just play the game normally, enjoying the game-play of the hundreds of different quests using different characters that play differently each time through... The powergamers play the same wk/spies/von3 or saga quests over and over and over, and then blame the devs for their ridiculous stupid choices. But maybe you are right. Maybe the devs should have designed the game differently recognizing that a subset of powergamers really just cannot help themselves and are helpless to avoid unfun activities.

You just put into words what I've suspected for a good long while (though I'm not sure I'd be quite so critical of others' choices, personally, those powerlevel folk seem to be enjoying themselves to me everywhere except the forums). Bolded section describes me. Drives some of my guildies nuts because I haven't built up the power levels required to blast my way through EE and yet I simply don't seem to care about levelling as fast as possible in order to do that by running what they sometimes now describe as 'dailies' - by which they mean VoN, WizKing, Spies.

As it happens, for similar reasons I don't care about tiny incremental gains like spooky augments either, that's also a mystery to the powergamey set. I've tried to explain that unless I can gain another +6-8 to relevant stats from somewhere first, +2 is going to be irrelevant to me as I don't have a multi-life caster, decked out with tomes and gear anyway let alone in Epic. In heroic I dont' ahve problems with my DCs and such and can't use those augments, so Epic is the only place the resultant +1DC might matter, except that it's epic, so it will only matter after I've got some of my casters past their 2nd and 3rd lives at least, and after Turbine have done a caster pass. We don't know what that will look like yet so even that's a big assumption. That's my casters. I can use a +2 spooky for an assassin though, right? Well, sure, but I can't imagine my 1st life assassin with a +2 tome at L23 is going to care about another +1 assassinate DC since its still not going to work unless they roll a 1 on their save most of the time by all accounts. "But you can keep those augments till you do have someone!" sure, but by the time that happens we'll have had another two or three night revels, assuming the game is still here. So why take up the bank space? "I'll get there eventually, and will cope till then, for now I'd rather have something useful now" is utterly incomprehensible thinking to at least one guildie I know, and he's not even that powergamey

On that note, I really fail to understand why those augments couldn't have been ML4 (min level to run Revels). I mean +2 to a stat? Really? Is it that powergamey even at L1?

[Silverleafeon]

According to Cordo's live cast on Friday this topic is under discussion with Player's Council as well as internal discussions atm.

Agreed. I think 7.5 million to get to 30 is what it should be.

Aye I agree, but willing to go as high as 8 million (top barter).