Stalker vs AA Tier 5's

[Grailhawk]

AA Tier 5's

• Moonbow: This is SP free slayer arrows, and +3.15 elemental damage per hit.
• Arrow of Slaying: +250 base damage every 20 seconds, which is an average of +10 damage assuming a 1.25 rate of fire and reduced to an average of +6.49 damage per hit assuming 54% doubleshot
• Improved Elemental Arrows: +11 elemental damage per crit, which is assuming a 15% crit chance 1.65 damage per hit. And some nice effects
• Runebow: +2 Damage per hit

Damage per hit increase = 13.29
with a big burst and some nice effects form the elemental imbues.

Stalker Tier 5's

• Extra Favored Enemy: +2 damage per hit vs favored enemies.
• Heavy Draw: +5 damage per hit
• Strikes Like Lightning: +20% doubleshot
• Head Shot: 5[w] auto crit every 12 seconds, assuming 1d8 weapon and x4 crit multiplier that is +6 damage per hit assuming a 1.25 rate of fire and reduced to an average of +3.44 damage per hit assuming 74% doubleshot.
• Improved Archer's Focus: +5 Ranged Power

Damage per hit increase = 10.44
with a small burst, 5 Ranged Power and 20% doublestrike

IMO Stalker Tier 5 is better then AA for any one with at least 5 levels of ranger.

Math on Arrow of Slaying and Head Shot

lets assume an averge rate of fire of 1.25 (this is close to accurate for a bow) 

Doubeshot:
20% AA Capstone 
05% Shadow Arrows 
10% ED Feat 
09% ED PL 
08% Gear 
02% Ship Buff 
54% Total Constant 

1.25 * 1.54 = 1.925 Rate of fire base 
1.25 * 1.74 = 2.175 Rate of fire base with 74% doubleshot 

Arrow of Slaying: are +250 base damage every 20 seconds in 20 seconds you will fire 20*1.925 = 38.5 arrows. 
This means Slayer Arrows are an average of (250/38.5) +6.49 base damage.

Head Shot: 5[1d8] = 22.5; 22.5*4 = 90 every 12 seconds. In 12 seconds you will fire 12*2.175 = 26.1 arrows. 
This means Head Shot are an average of (90/26.1) +3.44 base damage

Any one else have a though on this.

[unbongwah]

• Improved Elemental Arrows: +11 elemental damage per crit, which is assuming a 10% crit chance 1.1 damage per hit. And some nice effects

Since you've posted to rgr forum, I presume we're talking pure rgr. Crit chance is 15% w/IC:Ranged + DWS lvl 12 core (18-20/x4); should be 20% w/Morphic Arrows + Pulverizer (presuming it still stacks), but gives up +5% doubleshot from Shadow Arrows.

Problem as we pointed out elsewhere is AP cost: 41/39 spread means you can't afford everything from DWS T5 + Mark of the Hunted, much less have any APs left over for Tempest or racial tree. But overall I like the concept here.

[Grailhawk]

Since you've posted to rgr forum, I presume we're talking pure rgr. Crit chance is 15% w/IC:Ranged + DWS lvl 12 core (18-20/x4); should be 20% w/Morphic Arrows + Pulverizer (presuming it still stacks), but gives up +5% doubleshot from Shadow Arrows.

Problem as we pointed out elsewhere is AP cost: 41/39 spread means you can't afford everything from DWS T5 + Mark of the Hunted, much less have any APs left over for Tempest or racial tree. But overall I like the concept here.

Changed the OP to use 15% crit rate is more acurate then 10% for sure.

Ya AP on a pure ranger are very tight. Elf AA multiclass probably prefers tier 5 AA for AP reasons. Something that's not an elf but has 5+ levels of ranger probably should think of switching to Stalker if its in AA tier 5.

[pelaaja]

I at least agree with OP with this one. As of now I still feel the AA T5 enhancements are... very lacklustery. With my 12 ranger/6 monk/2 rogue I rather pick up the T5 from the DWS tree, though I'm tempted to pick up still the Shadow Arrows from Elf AA tree. However if I pick that up that's all I can pick up if I do decide to stick with DWS being the T5 (14 Helf tree, 31 AA, 34 DWS). Even then picking up Shadow Arrows would make me lose two of the four great T5 enhancements from DWS: Heavy Draw and Improved Archer Focus most likely unless I throw out Head Shot.

[Requiro]

AA Tier 5's

• Moonbow: This is SP free slayer arrows, and +3.15 elemental damage per hit.
• Arrow of Slaying: +250 base damage every 20 seconds, which is an average of +10 damage assuming a 1.25 rate of fire and reduced to an average of +6.49 damage per hit assuming 54% doubleshot
• Improved Elemental Arrows: +11 elemental damage per crit, which is assuming a 15% crit chance 1.65 damage per hit. And some nice effects
• Runebow: +2 Damage per hit

Damage per hit increase = 13.29
with a big burst and some nice effects form the elemental imbues.

Stalker Tier 5's

• Extra Favored Enemy: +2 damage per hit vs favored enemies.
• Heavy Draw: +5 damage per hit
• Strikes Like Lightning: +20% doubleshot
• Head Shot: 5[w] auto crit every 12 seconds, assuming 1d8 weapon and x4 crit multiplier that is +6 damage per hit assuming a 1.25 rate of fire and reduced to an average of +3.44 damage per hit assuming 74% doubleshot.
• Improved Archer's Focus: +5 Ranged Power

Damage per hit increase = 10.44
with a small burst, 5 Ranged Power and 20% doublestrike

IMO Stalker Tier 5 is better then AA for any one with at least 5 levels of ranger.

Math on Arrow of Slaying and Head Shot

lets assume an averge rate of fire of 1.25 (this is close to accurate for a bow) 

Doubeshot:
20% AA Capstone 
05% Shadow Arrows 
10% ED Feat 
09% ED PL 
08% Gear 
02% Ship Buff 
54% Total Constant 

1.25 * 1.54 = 1.925 Rate of fire base 
1.25 * 1.74 = 2.175 Rate of fire base with 74% doubleshot 

Arrow of Slaying: are +250 base damage every 20 seconds in 20 seconds you will fire 20*1.925 = 38.5 arrows. 
This means Slayer Arrows are an average of (250/38.5) +6.49 base damage.

Head Shot: 5[1d8] = 22.5; 22.5*4 = 90 every 12 seconds. In 12 seconds you will fire 12*2.175 = 26.1 arrows. 
This means Head Shot are an average of (90/26.1) +3.44 base damage

Any one else have a though on this.

Yes. I see some math issue:

• Moonbow: It's only 2,45 more damage if you take Critical and Effects on Improved Elemental Arrows.
• Arrow of Slaying and Head Shot: These abilities are not proc on both arrows when Doubleshoot proc?
• Improved Elemental Arrows: Multiselector: Critical and Effects OR +2 dice.
• Runebow:It's +2 to base damage before critical are counted. I don't know of that is true for Heavy Draw or Extra Favored Enemy (not tested)
• Improved Archer's Focus: Also add +30 Ranged Power while you stand still (or wisely use aim shoot). Very useful against Single Boss fights.

You also don’t mention that DWS gets for free some good stuff if you are forced to melee.

I don't made math myself, but when I playing, with DWS T5 it’s much easier, then with AA T5.
So I agree that DWS T5 is much better then AA T5 (especially with new Manyshoot feat)

IMO: same is with Capstone.

[Grailhawk]

Yes. I see some math issue:

• Moonbow: It's only 2,45 more damage if you take Critical and Effects on Improved Elemental Arrows.

3 tiers of elemental arrows at +2d8 = 6d8 1 tier at +1d8 (first choice) = 7d8 = 31.5 avg damage. +10 Spell power increases th 31.5 by 3.15 not seeing how i messed that up?

• Arrow of Slaying and Head Shot: These abilities are not proc on both arrows when Doubleshoot proc?

Don't know doesn't really change anything though IMO.

• Improved Elemental Arrows: Multiselector: Critical and Effects OR +2 dice.

I think the special effects from the elemental arrows probably out weight the bonus of +2 dice could be wrong on that but I'm going with it for this debate. Even if they aren't the +2 dice dont add enough to make AA a better tree or better tier 5's.

• Runebow:It's +2 to base damage before critical are counted. I don't know of that is true for Heavy Draw or Extra Favored Enemy (not tested)

Heavy Draw is +5 damage just like power attack yes it is before critical hits. Same for Favored Enemy.

IMO: same is with Capstone.

So you are saying that Stalker Capstone is better then AA? 20 Ranged Power could be in some situations better then 20 Doubleshot this would be very true for situations where you have alot of doubleshot but very low RP.

[Requiro]

3 tiers of elemental arrows at +2d8 = 6d8 1 tier at +1d8 (first choice) = 7d8 = 31.5 avg damage. +10 Spell power increases th 31.5 by 3.15 not seeing how i messed that up? My mistake. Forgot that it's now 1d8 not 1d6.

Don't know doesn't really change anything though IMO. Well it change. In your calculation, IF they proc on doublestrike, you shouldn't divine by doubleshoot % chance.

I think the special effects from the elemental arrows probably out weight the bonus of +2 dice could be wrong on that but I'm going with it for this debate. Even if they aren't the +2 dice dont add enough to make AA a better tree or better tier 5's. That was continuation of my first mistake.

Heavy Draw is +5 damage just like power attack yes it is before critical hits. Same for Favored Enemy. If it's true, DWS is even better. Also Heavy Draw and FA have some improvment option.

So you are saying that Stalker Capstone is better then AA? 20 Ranged Power could be in some situations better then 20 Doubleshot this would be very true for situations where you have alot of doubleshot but very low RP.

That's not even that. 20 RP alone in most cases is worst then 20 doubleshoot. The power is in always in PBS range and new additional +3 SA dice.

Always in PBS range mean that (minimum) 60% time (4 second every 6 second from Sniper Shot bluff activation and extra 6 second blind from Head Shoot) you get minimum 6 dice SA attack (avg. +21 damage) scaled by 150% Ranged Power. You have minimum 25 Ranged Power thus you have avg. + 28,8dmg. With 60% time it's avg. +17,3 dmage every hit against no fortification targets.

And you get even more bonuses: Melee Power, Survivability, and at least always get +1[W] from PBS.
Also SA get better scaling (150%) with RP then Elemental Arrow with SP (100%).

Of course Doubleshoot can be used well with lots of “on hit effect”, but it's too high math for me.

I like Doubleshoot, but IMO DWS Capstone is just winner.

[unbongwah]

So you are saying that Stalker Capstone is better then AA? 20 Ranged Power could be in some situations better then 20 Doubleshot this would be very true for situations where you have alot of doubleshot but very low RP.

I was thinking on my AA rgr build that the advantage to DWS capstone is it frees some APs so I could invest in Tempest for a bit more melee DPS: e.g., 42 APs DWS (all T5s + capstone), 31 APs AA (Shadow Arrows), 6 APs Tempest (first two cores), 1 AP human (Dmg Boost). While we've been focusing on ranged benefits, DWS provides +30% Doublestrike (Killer+SLL), +25 Melee Power, and +7d6 SA, all of which help melee as well. This configuration might be lower ranged DPS than AA capstone, but it provides a stronger melee backup. Or turn that around and make it 31 APs Tempest (Whirlwind) and 6 APs AA if you wanted melee-primary, ranged-secondary.

Who knew rgr would have too many good enhancements rather than too few?

[Grailhawk]

Well it change. In your calculation, IF they proc on doublestrike, you shouldn't divine by doubleshoot % chance.

I don't think you understand what I was doing, I divined by the double shot because I wanted to see what the average increase to damage per hit is. If you were to turn Arrow of Slaying in to just +x damage on every attack you make how much would it be?

To figure this out you need to know how many attacks are made in 20 seconds (cooldown time for Arrow of Slaying) double shot adds attacks so we need to factor those attacks in. To make this really simple lets say you make 40 attacks in 20 seconds since Arrow of Slaying adds +250 damage to 1 attack you can say that Arrow of Slaying on average increases you damage per hit by 250/40 = 6.25. Which is what I did and why i divine by the doubleshot number as well.

It does matter a little bit if the Arrow of Slaying can double shot if it can double shot then I shouldn't say its only +250 it should be treated as 385 (1.54*250 = 385 since 54% of Arrow of Slaying activations will double shot). 384/40 = 9.625. Same will apply for Headshot if it can doubleshot.

Does that make more sense as to what I'm doing?

[Requiro]

I don't think you understand what I was doing, I divined by the double shot because I
wanted to see what the average increase to damage per hit is. If you were to turn Arrow of Slaying in to just
+x damage on every attack you make how much would it be?

To figure this out you need to know how many attacks are made in 20 seconds (cooldown time for Arrow of
Slaying) double shot adds attacks so we need to factor those attacks in. To make this really simple lets say
you make 40 attacks in 20 seconds since Arrow of Slaying adds +250 damage to 1 attack you can say that Arrow
of Slaying on average increases you damage per hit by 250/40 = 6.25. Which is what I did and why i divine by
the doubleshot number as well.

It does matter a little bit if the Arrow of Slaying can double shot if it can double shot then I shouldn't say
its only +250 it should be treated as 385 (1.54*250 = 385 since 54% of Arrow of Slaying activations will
double shot). 384/40 = 9.625. Same will apply for Headshot if it can doubleshot.

Does that make more sense as to what I'm doing?

Exacly, that was my statment. If these abilities can proc on Doubleshoots, then correct math for Arrow of
Slaying is just 10 damage and Head Shoot just 6.

But it;s even more inacurate. +250 damage from Arrow of slaying are multiplier by criticals hits. So for
critical threat like 17-20 with x4 multiplier is not +10 more damage but: ((250x4x4)+(250x15)) / 20 = 387,5
average damage per Arrow of Slaying. So correct number is not even 10, but 15,5 (same critics math for other
abilities)

Overall IMO correct math, should be: (bow is 1d8, with 17-20 x4, RoF: 1,25 arrow per second, Damage bonus:
+30):
AA

• Base damage: 53,4 (average damage per hit)
• Moonbow: +3,15 (elemental damage)
• Arrow of Slaying: +15,5 (average damage per hit)
• IEA: +3,3 (elemental damage)
• Runebow: +3,1 (normal damage)
• SUM:+25,05
• SUM TOTAL:78,45
• Side Note: Almost free in SP Arrows of slaying from Moonbow, Some nice effect from IEA, +2 to hit from
  Runebow, 7 AP

DWS

• Base damage: 53,4 (average damage per hit)
• Extra FA: +3,1 (against FA, normal damage)
• Heavy Draw: +7,75 (normal damage)
• Strikes Like Lightning: 20% doubleshoot (Sum multiplier x 1,2)
• Head Shoot: +9,97 (average damage per hit, normal damage)
• IAF: (moving) +3,7 or (still) 25,9 (average damage from base and T5 abilities, normal damage)
• SUM: (moving) + 29,42 or (still) +56,06
• SUM TOTAL: (moving) 82,82 or (still) 109,46
• Side Note: Additional FA, Draw can be upgraded, +10% doublestrike, Head Strike, +5 Melee Power, 10 AP

Math

Moonbow: 10 Spell Power: 7d8=~31,5; 31,5x0,1=3,15 (average damage per hit)
Arrow of Slaying: +250 damage per 20 second:  ((250x4x4)+(250x15)) / 20 = 7750 / 387,5 (average damage per  
hit). 387,5 / 20 = 19,375; 19,375 / 1,25 = 15,5 (average damage per arrow)
IEA: 3d10 elemental damage per critical: 33/2=16,5; 16,5x4=66; 66/20=3,3 (average damage per hit)
Runebow: +2 enhancement: ((2x4x4)+(2x15)) / 20 = 3,1 (average damage per hit)

DWS
Extra FA: +2 damage against FA: ((2x4x4)+(2x15)) / 20 = 62 / 3,1 (average damage per hit)
Heavy Draw: +5 damage: ((5x4x4)+(5x15)) / 20 = 155 / 20 = 7,753,1 (average damage per hit)
Strikes Like Lightning: Sum multiplier x 1,2
Head Shoot: +5[W], autocrit once per 12 second: ((5x4,5x4)+|((((30x4x4)+(30x15))/20)-((30x19x4)/20))|)x(19/20)= (90 + |46,5 - 114|)*(19/20) = (90 + 67,5)*(19/20) = 149,625 (average damage per hit); 149,625 / 12 = 12,47; 12,47 / 1,25 = 9,97 (average damage per arrow)
IAF: (moving) +5 Ranged Power: (0,05*3,1)+(0,05*7,75)+(0,05*9,97)+(0,05*53,4) = 3,7
IAF: (still) +35 Ranged Power with Archer Focus: (0,35*3,1)+(0,35*7,75)+(0,35*9,97)+(0,35*53,4) = 25,9

This color: Subject to RoF: With higher RoF, lower additional damage per arrow. 
This color: SUbject to RoF and Additional Damage. With higher RoF, lower additional damage per arrow, but more additional base damage means better additional damage per arrow from this ability.

I think the result is obvious. DWS T5 >> AA T5 any time.

[Grailhawk]

Exacly, that was my statment. If these abilities can proc on Doubleshoots, then correct math for Arrow of
Slaying is just 10 damage and Head Shoot just 6.

But it;s even more inacurate. +250 damage from Arrow of slaying are multiplier by criticals hits. So for
critical threat like 17-20 with x4 multiplier is not +10 more damage but: ((250x4x4)+(250x15)) / 20 = 387,5
average damage per Arrow of Slaying. So correct number is not even 10, but 15,5 (same critics math for other
abilities)

Overall IMO correct math, should be: (bow is 1d8, with 17-20 x4, RoF: 1,25 arrow per second, Damage bonus:
+30):
AA

• Base damage: 53,4
• Moonbow: +3,15 (elemental damage)
• Arrow of Slaying: +15,5 (average damage per hit)
• IEA: +3,3 (elemental damage)
• Runebow: +3,1 (normal damage)
• SUM:+25,05
• SUM TOTAL:78,45
• Side Note: Almost free in SP Arrows of slaying from Moonbow, Some nice effect from IEA, +2 to hit from
  Runebow, 7 AP

DWS

• Base damage: 53,4
• Extra FA: +3,1 (against FA, normal damage)
• Heavy Draw: +7,75 (normal damage)
• Strikes Like Lightning: 20% doublestrike (Sum multiplier x 1,2)
• Head Shoot: +9,97 (average damage per hit, normal damage)
• IAF: (moving) +3,7 or (still) 25,9 (average damage from base and T5 abilities, normal damage)
• SUM: (moving) + 29,42 or (still) +56,06
• SUM TOTAL: (moving) 82,82 or (still) 109,46
• Side Note: Additional FA, Draw can be upgraded, +10% doublestrike, Head Strike, +5 Melee Power, 10 AP

Math

Moonbow: 10 Spell Power: 7d8=~31,5; 31,5x0,1=3,15 (average damage per hit)
Arrow of Slaying: +250 damage per 20 second:  ((250x4x4)+(250x15)) / 20 = 7750 / 387,5 (average damage per  
hit). 387,5 / 20 = 19,375; 19,375 / 1,25 = 15,5 (average damage per arrow)
IEA: 3d10 elemental damage per critical: 33/2=16,5; 16,5x4=66; 66/20=3,3 (average damage per hit)
Runebow: +2 enhancement: ((2x4x4)+(2x15)) / 20 = 3,1 (average damage per hit)

DWS
Extra FA: +2 damage against FA: ((2x4x4)+(2x15)) / 20 = 62 / 3,1 (average damage per hit)
Heavy Draw: +5 damage: ((5x4x4)+(5x15)) / 20 = 155 / 20 = 7,753,1 (average damage per hit)
Strikes Like Lightning: Sum multiplier x 1,2
Head Shoot: +5[W], autocrit once per 12 second: ((5x4,5x4)+|((((30x4x4)+(30x15))/20)-((30x19x4)/20))|)x(19/20)= (90 + |46,5 - 114|)*(19/20) = (90 + 67,5)*(19/20) = 149,625 (average damage per hit); 149,625 / 12 = 12,47; 12,47 / 1,25 = 9,97 (average damage per arrow)
IAF: (moving) +5 Ranged Power: (0,05*3,1)+(0,05*7,75)+(0,05*9,97)+(0,05*53,4) = 3,7
IAF: (still) +35 Ranged Power with Archer Focus: (0,35*3,1)+(0,35*7,75)+(0,35*9,97)+(0,35*53,4) = 25,9

This color: Subject to RoF: The better RoF, the worst additional damage per arrow.

I think the result is obvious. DWS T5 >> AA T5 any time.

If you are saying you need to factor crits in then you also need to factor in Ranged power as it multiplies things.

Its not inaccurate to compare the base increase before crits. I'll except that I should have separated out base damage from effect damage but given that both builds will likely have the same crit profile it isn't need to multiply the values because it cancels out.

Your adding needless complications by multiplying the value if we assume equal crit profile and equal ranged power we can know which is better just by looking at the base number.

A more accurate picture then what I presented could have been done by separating out base (critable, RP increased) damage from effect damage.

[Requiro]

If you are saying you need to factor crits in then you also need to factor in Ranged power as it multiplies things.

Its not inaccurate to compare the base increase before crits. I'll except that I should have separated out base damage from effect damage but given that both builds will likely have the same crit profile it isn't need to multiply the values because it cancels out.

Your adding needless complications by multiplying the value if we assume equal crit profile and equal ranged power we can know which is better just by looking at the base number.

A more accurate picture then what I presented could have been done by separating out base (critable, RP increased) damage from effect damage.

I don't think so.
Critical profile work differently on AA abilities and DWS abilities. It's all in my post (math).

I do factor in Ranged Power same as Spell Power in my math, but just from T5 abilities.

[Grailhawk]

I don't think so.
Critical profile work differently on AA abilities and DWS abilities. It's all in my post (math).

I do factor in Ranged Power same as Spell Power in my math, but just from T5 abilities.

What I mean by they cancel out

17-20/x4 crit proile = 0.75 + 0.2(4) = 1.55 crit power

Arrow of Slaying
20*1.25 = 25 shots fired
250/25 = 10
10 * 1.55 = 15.5

Heavydraw
5 * 1.55 = 7.75

15.5 > 7.75
10 * 1.55 > 5 * 1.55
10 > 5

Hence it cancels out when what you are doing is comparing things.


Headshot is differnt sence it auto crits every time.

Headshot
5[1d8] = 22.5 avg
22.5 * 4 = 90 after auto crit
12*1.25 = 15 shots fired
90/15 = 6 damage per hit

Thinking about this more headshot is wrong it should be 4*4.5 = 18 * 4 = 72 average damage increase 72/15 = 4.8 damage per hit increase since any attack you make will have automatic 1[w]


Headshot is that simple I'm not sure how you get it to 9.97 are you multiplying it by ranged power why are you not also multiplying arrow of slaying?

Head Shoot: +5[W], autocrit once per 12 second: ((5x4,5x4)+|((((30x4x4)+(30x15))/20)-((30x19x4)/20))|)x(19/20)= (90 + |46,5 - 114|)*(19/20) = (90 + 67,5)*(19/20) = 149,625 (average damage per hit); 149,625 / 12 = 12,47; 12,47 / 1,25 = 9,97 (average damage per arrow)

You are again making something way more complex then it is. You dont need to average out the damage over all possible out comes of the die roll (unless you want to factor in failed crit confirmations?) Headshot is a increase of +4w its not a buff so there's no need to factor out the damage you would have done if you didn't auto crit.