First impresions after the NERFS

[Jetrule]

My two main characters both feel a bit squishier and unaffected damage wise. even though I feared the tanklock would not be playable with reduced dps he felt about the same The reduced prr and mrr were from his medium armor were more noticeable for me than the dps loss. But he found himself at lvl 24 in a ee FOT and tanking the storm reaver sometimes or the truthful one sometimes or kiting dragons sometimes. It was harder to stay alive for sure. But lots of people were dying. Twice only the three E.S. floating warlocks were alive. and once only the other 2 were when i died. .

[Qhualor]

My 18 warlock/2 BF paladin lost a lot of dps because of the balance changes to caster warlocks. 5 more epic levels to go before she is done with the past life, but I have 1 more character doing BF warlock lives. I'll have to actually plan out some kind of 12 or 14 warlock and 8 or 6 paladin TWF build on him just to have some kind of decent dps. On the plus side, if I remember right, her MRR and PRR looked about the same.

[LightBear]

Being in the mids of a Bladeforged --16 sorc/2 monk /2 paladin this update sucks hard.
I still have 6 mil to finish this epic life, then I have to grind that epic life out again to be able to do an iconic tr.
Unhappy camper here as I kinda did the build wrong (took monk to late so that messed up some feats).

[Gothdom]

First impresions after the nerf. Try and keep it civil

Vanguard Pally: Took it hard. In EE quests, doing much less DPS taking longer to kill enemies, taking a lot more damage in the process. I think going THF will be the way to go now, since I can kill around 50% faster with a THF build now. Therefore the added protections from shield are no longer worth the loss in DPS, even against many enemies and ESPECIALLY against one or two. I really felt it was balanced before this huge nerf. Before the nerf I had much better defenses, and around 20% less DPS than when THF'ing. Now its the other way around. Revert this nerf please. S&B SHOULD be the paladins strongest stance, its Iconic to the class.


Rogues: Did not notice any real loss of DPS. Sneak is overwhelmingly the biggest part of my DPS, so a little less base DPS is hardly noticed. Nerf to MRR is hardly noticed either, since rogues typically take no damage or a lot of damage anyway.

Warlock: Still rip through heroics like a hot knife through butter. Now quite a bit less effective in Epics. Over all much worse than before, sine now there is little difference in heroic levels, and a big drop in DPS and survivability in Epics. I thought they were just right in Epics before this big nerf.


Haven t tried my other toons yet, but the above are/were the mains I currently play.

Please add your comments! Especially for other classes.

Is your rogue TWF? My Ranger in heroics has lost half damage on crits, but it's only level 6. I did some quick runs on lammania with a rogue, and that dip in melee power seemed to hurt on epics, since rogues are hyper squishy when hit.

Warlock: I agree with you, warlocks are hyperpowered still on heroics, but suffered a lot on epics. The big drop in survivability made me run for a TR.

[FifthTime]

Will be TRing out of my Warlock, they were mediocre in EE before the pass, now they are just another piking caster. I don't really care about Heroic content, that shouldn't be the bar at which a class is judged.

Sadly Turbine has decided that Casters should be useless in end game content.

It might be time for a break until they do the caster pass.

Thanks Turbine.

[patang01]

First impresions after the nerf. Try and keep it civil

Vanguard Pally: Took it hard. In EE quests, doing much less DPS taking longer to kill enemies, taking a lot more damage in the process. I think going THF will be the way to go now, since I can kill around 50% faster with a THF build now. Therefore the added protections from shield are no longer worth the loss in DPS, even against many enemies and ESPECIALLY against one or two. I really felt it was balanced before this huge nerf. Before the nerf I had much better defenses, and around 20% less DPS than when THF'ing. Now its the other way around. Revert this nerf please. S&B SHOULD be the paladins strongest stance, its Iconic to the class.


Rogues: Did not notice any real loss of DPS. Sneak is overwhelmingly the biggest part of my DPS, so a little less base DPS is hardly noticed. Nerf to MRR is hardly noticed either, since rogues typically take no damage or a lot of damage anyway.

Warlock: Still rip through heroics like a hot knife through butter. Now quite a bit less effective in Epics. Over all much worse than before, sine now there is little difference in heroic levels, and a big drop in DPS and survivability in Epics. I thought they were just right in Epics before this big nerf.


Haven t tried my other toons yet, but the above are/were the mains I currently play.

Please add your comments! Especially for other classes.

My Ranger took a shave; DPS wise the burst manyshot went from 4 per shot to 2 or 3 dependent on doubleshot. Tempest rangers are not really optimized like that. I tried to add more to the AA side but fundamentally it takes a much deeper investment to build that up. 2wf DPS went down a bit too - from more crits around 800-1400 to more 600-1k. Some of it was fewer crits over all (threat range change). Some of it changing some enhancements points around (mainly less deepwood concerning doublestrike) but primarily it was removing melee power and threat range. Damage mitigation was down as well; something I noticed as far as taking more incoming damage, spending more time healing and therefor less time fighting. I might have to rethink that build and go full AA.

My vaguard fighter/Warlock sucks. Not as bad as say can't play it - far from it. But damage mitigation is down, DPS is down and over all burst just feels useless compared to simply adding cleaving. He's going to change over to pure Vanguard (due to so much gear in armor and shields) with some of those armor and dc feats.

The pure warlock is getting tedious. I don't know why they keep nerfing the chain that can only hit 3 targets, slow firing so it misses a lot and having a targeting cycle that is slow and frustrating before it fires. Meanwhile cone shape remains the same. So something that can only hit 3 targets (providing he target gets hit in the first place) get smacked while the cone shape that can destroy entire mobs without missing didn't. I guess they want me to play cone shaped.

Honestly; this change is the most baffling and make the least amount of sense. It's not like Warlocks are super in Epic. Sure - we saw a lot of melee/ES hybrids but ranged are really not that good. My Shiradi sorc cost blast most mobs to oblivion long before the Warlock can. I know that some players who don't play Warlock think they're so super because of the cheap pew pew - but maybe they should try one. The crits slid from the reliable 800 range to the 600 range on crit. And that becomes REALLY trite against red named piles of HP in ToEE and such.

As far as outside pally hybrids the rest of the shave isn't all that severe (and I never thought it was). I can say this tho - there's less desire to play certain hybrids now than before. Which is unfortunate. But whatever.

[unbongwah]

I think a better way to fix the heroic problem is to only allow maximize/empower on SLAs UNTIL they reach character level 20. Getting 225 spellpower in heroics on those is too much.

That's completely inconsistent with how all other PrE SLAs work, though. If the problem is level scaling - too powerful in heroics, too weak in epics - they should fix that without breaking consistency (IMO).

I would only run warlock on a maxed out toon after the changes.

So, just another caster, then?

[patang01]

No change at all in my play style on any of my toons

level 28 pure S&B fighter lost about 30 points in both PRR and MRR = a few percentage points of damage reduction. I was 68% damage reduction in PRR before the patch, now I am 66%.

Level 28 assassin, no noticeable change.

Level 28 rogue/ arti, 18/2 split repeater user, no noticeable change.

Are the new fighter feats working as intended, I might look at picking a couple of them up to improve either my PRR/MRR or my tactical DCs

They worked on Lam. I did a pure Vanguard to test and took 2-3 of the armor feats and 2 of the DC feats. The tacticals were landing reliably on EE (don't know with level 30 ones tho so don't quote me on it) the armor after the armor feat was 200PRR and something like 160 or whatnot MRR. That's some past lives and all the relevant gear. So the feats work. I can see a few going full fighter (or deep investment) just for that while sliding to evasion for the low PRR and MRR. My ranger is sorta there. PRR and MRR went down and that hurts more for skirmishers builds. And with lower saves due to change to divine grace the evasion part is not always solid in upper end EEs. Overall triple slapped for him. The Vanguard as long as you invest in the new feats will be stronger. Yes - lower DPS (by whatever percentage) but it can be recovered with a functional stunning shield and blow in EEs (even improved trip).

But is this the rebirth of tanking? Nah, don't think so.

[patang01]

That's completely inconsistent with how all other PrE SLAs work, though. If the problem is level scaling - too powerful in heroics, too weak in epics - they should fix that without breaking consistency (IMO).

So, just another caster, then?

That was stated numerous times but it seems they tried to fix the issue of heroic (which is easy in almost all classes) quests and Warlocks by hurting Epic. It's not a smart move. It would be better if they coded it so Epic levels increases it while keep it reasonably lower in Heroic. Yes, that would hurt hybrids somewhat unless they invest deeper but it seems the real reason for the Warlock nerfs was the heroic situation AND the powerful hybrids anyways.

[Mithis]

I have not been able to play all of my characters yet but so far:

Barbarian (THF level 13 Pure) is feeling the loss of MRR. Blood Strength is providing less healing of course but the 1s. cooldown is not having that big of an effect at this level.

Warlock (level 8 Pure) DPS is down but still able to handle quests well...just a bit more kiting required. Didn't have much MRR or PRR to begin with so not feeling the difference...no idea how this will play out over time.

Cleric (SWF +orb level 28 14 clr, 4 ftr, 2 pal) took advantage of Fred and swapped out a good half dozen feats. MRR is down and can feel it but was able to keep loss minimal to PRR through feats and EnH. Lost a few points to saves due to DG change but will likely keep (2) Paladin anyway.

Yet to be tested:
Shuriken thrower (level 28)
Mech. repeater (level 23)
Pure BF Warlock (level 22)

Retired and awaiting TR or pass (not due to changes)
TWF Rogue (level 25)
Wolf for Druid (level 11)

[Ghoulstorm]

I haven't checked out all of my toons yet, but my vanguard pally took it on the chin hard. My vaunted survivability took a big hit with my MRR now in the gutter and dps is markedly lower. I'll probably end up doing what they clearly want me to do and swapping to thf, but I never really liked thf and I'd have to farm out new gear, so maybe I just end up shelving him to collect dust instead.

[Tahkhesis]

I gotta put "nerfs" in quotes (as I guess I did).

My main Tahkhesis (28 Tempest) does a little less DPS per hit, but actually crits a bunch more and maybe more then her Bard build (which was like 2 crits per 3 hits or something stupid)...Her MRR didn't really drop too much either.

Haxan (12 fighter/2 rogue/6 bard) also crits more and actually seemed to gain some DPS.

Still in progress on my other 2 alts, but so far so good. Plus the whole "you can see what tomes you've used" and the whole "the golem heart actually says it stacks" things are pretty damned terrific.

Also, getting free feat changes and 2 +5 hearts was pretty sweet. I'd give this update a 4/5. Would totally do.

[Pnumbra]

The changes to the ES tree and its ability to be a viable melee version of the Warlock took a big hit. Pre-nerf the lack of equipment that bolstered force/light lore was compensated by the innate spell power boost from the class enhancements. Post-nerf this synergy has been removed and the affect of limited support from gear has reduced the effectiveness of the class.

The issue was never epic warlocks, but heroic warlocks, and the fix did not require reducing epic warlock effectiveness. I have posted that simple changes to the CE would solve the problem. For example;

Pre-Nerf:
Eldritch Aura: Stance: While this is active, your Eldritch Blast changes into an aura that deals the same damage as your Eldritch Blast to all foes in range every 5 seconds, and scales with 150% spell power. You cannot fire Eldritch Blasts while in this stance, but may attack normally with weapons and cast spells. Stance cool down: 8 seconds.

Post Nerf:

Eldritch Aura: Stance: While this is active, your Eldritch Blast changes into an aura that deals the same damage as your Eldritch Blast to all foes in range every 5 seconds, and scales with 100% spell power. Levels 20+ scale with 150% spell power. You cannot fire Eldritch Blasts while in this stance, but may attack normally with weapons and cast spells. Stance cool down: 8 seconds.

The approach could have been taken with all the CEs that were over performing in the heroic tier.

I spent four hours last night test out the changes without making any alteration to my character. Since I wear medium armor I expected the armor changes to be dramatic and they were when it came to MRR - dropping from 100 to 66. How did that balance the game? My PRR dropped only slightly and i was able to mitigate the extra damage taken with a few tactical changes to combat. I now play more like a caster than a melee, retreating and tunneling foes instead of standing firm and blocking for the true casters in the group. As I told them last night, "watch your backs because I can't." So my days of tanking are over and I am relegated to a position between caster and melee. I am currently not sure how to navigate this new road, but it is undesirable to say the least. Spamming Evard's is so depressing and mind numbing for an ES melee type. I am an arcanist who enjoys a bit of the rough-n-tumble.

Pre-nerf I could playfully challenge my paladin/barbarian/swashbucklng friends - talking smack about kill counts (we don't care about them) and who can kill a particular mini boss faster...those days are over...thus a fragment of enjoyment gone. I actually feel bad about not being able to protect my artificer friend now. With these nerf, she is getting her butt handed to her left and right. In Tavern Brawl (hard) Abashi were 1-2 shooting her so much we left her dead until the boss was killed and mobs cleared. How is that balancing the game? Pre-nerf she could hold her own very well.

If I remember correctly, warlock was released in mid June around the 18th. Here we are four months post release and you have nerf the class twice. This makes me question the amount of careful consideration you gave to player feedback and testing. While splashing a few levels of bard or paladin into the mix makes me vomit in my mouth, I have considered it. Why, that is your part; because in order to compete and gird up to the current monster power, steps must be taken. I noticed you did not alter the content for balance, just the players. So those outrageous HP mobs will now be more of a threat due to decreased DPS - that's balance?

[Mellkor]

Is your rogue TWF? My Ranger in heroics has lost half damage on crits, but it's only level 6. I did some quick runs on lammania with a rogue, and that dip in melee power seemed to hurt on epics, since rogues are hyper squishy when hit.

Warlock: I agree with you, warlocks are hyperpowered still on heroics, but suffered a lot on epics. The big drop in survivability made me run for a TR.

I play several rogues of various varieties, including a twf assassin. I did not notice any loss in DPS on any of them because sneak is the overwhelming damage source from all of them, so the loss of 6 weapon power was inconsequential. I would probably do almost the same dps with a butter knife

[slarden]

I play several rogues of various varieties, including a twf assassin. I did not notice any loss in DPS on any of them because sneak is the overwhelming damage source from all of them, so the loss of 6 weapon power was inconsequential. I would probably do almost the same dps with a butter knife

6 melee power represents a 6% bonus of base damage and 9% bonus of sneak damage. Rogues arguably benefit more from melee power than most other builds.

[Strider1963]

Level 10 ranger: Nothing changed in melee, multishot is fairly useless at this level, going from 2 arrows to mostly one.
Level 15pally, monk, 3 ftr....swf no big difference that I see in dps (though im not an uber player), however, whats the deal with everytime you change weapons, you have to reapply holy sword??/ Did pallys have too many spellpoints so they nerfed it? Now that just makes the game more annoying.

[Hawkwier]

Currently just playing 2 characters that are both staying in epics for awhile: 2nd heroic tr pure cleric( 3divine and 3primal epic pl's ) and a dex based bard swashie with evasion and fighter stance( 12heroic and 28epic pl's ) - both reltively well geared but the bard had an obviously better survivabilty to begin with.


After U28.1 patch:

L20cleric > i could not have cared for the prr all that much but if it wasn't for the mysterious cloak mrr would be a solid 0, so having horribly bad saves just made wearing heavy armor a reasonable choice for once at that point. I am aware of sheltering items that give +35 at L28 and +15 bonus from a tower shield, but at this point i don't want to bother with rearanging and farming for a new gear setup every time a change like this happens.

15bard/3fighter/2rogue > barely noticed any changes in resistance ratings, in fact mrr( lost about 15 ) didn't even matter to this specific build since i would evade 90% of the aoe's anyway - main threat in eh-ee's from casters were magic missiles( we know mrr does't do slack against that ) or getting cc'd. Before patch dps was about 1100 (+2300 on a frozen mob )on divine crusader with CITW weapons, will have to check how much i've lost after the IC change once i'll be available for PSWF feat again.

Conclusion: the balance patch made almost no difference to a character that inherently had better defense and made my wimpyer character more wimpy.

Just my two cents, but i think that previous mrr bonus from heavy armor was pretty fair if you have the profficiency, since that was the balancing part back when evasion characters made more sence years ago, after all a well made rogue or monk splasher is gona ignore at least 1/6 physical hits from passive dodge alone and evade or even just take half damage on a failed save from magical damage and the gaps can be filled with proper equipment and enhancements for the most part. This patch just looks like throwback to appeal to evasion characters again and although i'm fine with most of the changes it just looks like a full circle in that sense. I realy enjoy playing DDO, but i can't wrap my head around the idea that the game is over 9 years old and players still have to be beta testing it every time a new update with an old concept is prematurely added to the game.

+1 for THIS ^^^

A well balanced and mature post for a first time poster - Forumites take note - these changes may elicit good comment from the hitherto silent majority of experienced players, who ordinarily choose not to engage with egocentric forum petty hysteria!

[slarden]

+1 for THIS ^^^

A well balanced and mature post for a first time poster - Forumites take note - these changes may elicit good comment from the hitherto silent majority of experienced players, who ordinarily choose not to engage with egocentric forum petty hysteria!

The so-called "hysteria" you speak of resulted in alot of good changes before the balance pass went live:
1) swashbuckler crit range was fixed so rapier wasn't the only usable weapon
2) assassin crit range for dagger was fixed so dagger wasn't worse than kukri
3) named item crit range was adjusted
4) twf paladin remained an option as holy sword was changed to apply to non-shield offhand weapon
5) holy sword continues to apply to longbow which is a favored weapon for one diety

So overall, I think alot of the good feedback was addressed by the devs and without this feedback (aka as "hysteria" to hawkier) the update would have broken many builds.

Whether the feedback is acted on by the devs or not - keep it coming. This release was much better because of it.

[Cantor]

I noticed you did not alter the content for balance, just the players.

I think that's kinda the point. I think it's as much about PvE balance as anything. When is the last time you even thought about anything in any quest that wasn't EE, and then not even much. Players have been too OP, does this fix it, no. but it scales it back some.

[RapkintheRanger]

Manyshot is now pewing results like 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3, 2 ,2 1 ,2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2 for 20 seconds, instead of 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 ect then double shot cool down. Makes my AA play very disappointing. My AA is 7 years old and has always been my fav most playable EE toon, now hes in the toilet.

I agree. The AA is not a catastrophy, but not good either. the best thing about my character was burst dmg. I dont think the overall increase in DPS makes up for the loss of burst DPS.

math wise, i think it is less dmg
fun wise, it is certainly less fun

I wish i could get greater burst out of many shot.... AND SO DEAR DEVS ... if i can't have a better many shot, when you look at the AA tree, can you find me some more burst DPS?