Fighter Feats

[Blastyswa]

This is my current feat list for my 18/2 Fighter Paladin.

1.Magical Training

Human. Force of Personality

Fighter. Shield Mastery

Fighter. Improved Shield Bash

3. Power Attack

Fighter. Khopesh Proficiency

6. Cleave

Fighter. Great Cleave

Fighter. Weapon Focus: Slashing

9. Weapon Specialization: Slashing

Fighter. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing

Fighter. Improved Critical: Slashing

12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

15. Empower Heal

Fighter. Improved Shield Mastery

18. Quicken

Fighter. Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing

Fighter. Stunning Blow

21. Overwhelming Critical

24. Shield Deflection

26. Toughness

27. Epic Toughness

28. Two-Weapon Fighting (Doublestrike)


My question is what exactly I'm supposed to be dropping to pick up 8 more feats (Look at upcoming balance changes if you have no idea what I'm talking about) or 5 at least with top tier tactics boost and all the PRR/MRR bonuses. For a TWF or SWF build they don't need the shield feats, but would only be gaining one feat that way. I could potentially drop the Toughness/Epic Toughness combo for a loss of about 110 health (80 +40%) and gain one normal feat and one ED feat, or I can gimp saves, drop stunning blow, or lose some DPS. All in all, I'm not really seeing where the developers saw an opening in pure fighters for these feats. I can't really drop force of personality, since with the upcoming divine grace nerf my workable saves will be dropped substantially, even more so if I pull points out of charisma or drop FoP.

Just leave PRR/MRR on armor like they are already. Alternatively, if paladins being survivable is really that big of an issue, autogrant the proposed feats to fighters.

(Let it be noted that this particular build is a tanky defense one. It has quite a bit of emphasis on defense through feats; however, it does not have ranged, which many fighter builds attempt to incorporate and will now be hard pressed between defense or choices.)

[Hobgoblin]

This is my current feat list for my 18/2 Fighter Paladin.

1.Magical Training

Human. Force of Personality

Fighter. Shield Mastery

Fighter. Improved Shield Bash

3. Power Attack

Fighter. Khopesh Proficiency

6. Cleave

Fighter. Great Cleave

Fighter. Weapon Focus: Slashing

9. Weapon Specialization: Slashing

Fighter. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing

Fighter. Improved Critical: Slashing

12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

15. Empower Heal

Fighter. Improved Shield Mastery

18. Quicken

Fighter. Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing

Fighter. Stunning Blow

21. Overwhelming Critical

24. Shield Deflection

26. Toughness

27. Epic Toughness

28. Two-Weapon Fighting (Doublestrike)


My question is what exactly I'm supposed to be dropping to pick up 8 more feats (Look at upcoming balance changes if you have no idea what I'm talking about) or 5 at least with top tier tactics boost and all the PRR/MRR bonuses. For a TWF or SWF build they don't need the shield feats, but would only be gaining one feat that way. I could potentially drop the Toughness/Epic Toughness combo for a loss of about 110 health (80 +40%) and gain one normal feat and one ED feat, or I can gimp saves, drop stunning blow, or lose some DPS. All in all, I'm not really seeing where the developers saw an opening in pure fighters for these feats. I can't really drop force of personality, since with the upcoming divine grace nerf my workable saves will be dropped substantially, even more so if I pull points out of charisma or drop FoP.

Just leave PRR/MRR on armor like they are already. Alternatively, if paladins being survivable is really that big of an issue, autogrant the proposed feats to fighters.

(Let it be noted that this particular build is a tanky defense one. It has quite a bit of emphasis on defense through feats; however, it does not have ranged, which many fighter builds attempt to incorporate and will now be hard pressed between defense or choices.)

maybe magic trainin, quicken, emp heal, the 2 toughness feats?

i mean you are a mostly fighter right?

they cant deal that much good?

i don't know your build specs, so may be off there.

[Kompera_Oberon]

My question is what exactly I'm supposed to be dropping to pick up 8 more feats (Look at upcoming balance changes if you have no idea what I'm talking about) or 5 at least with top tier tactics boost and all the PRR/MRR bonuses. For a TWF or SWF build they don't need the shield feats, but would only be gaining one feat that way. I could potentially drop the Toughness/Epic Toughness combo for a loss of about 110 health (80 +40%) and gain one normal feat and one ED feat, or I can gimp saves, drop stunning blow, or lose some DPS. All in all, I'm not really seeing where the developers saw an opening in pure fighters for these feats. I can't really drop force of personality, since with the upcoming divine grace nerf my workable saves will be dropped substantially, even more so if I pull points out of charisma or drop FoP.

Agreed. The Fighter's only class ability is having a pile of Feats. They have a crappy skill list, poor skill points, and their only ability which is distinct from some other class is the ability to use Tower Shields, which is in itself merely a Feat already applied for the character.

Introducing a bunch of "must have" Feats is very poor game design. It will only serve to force players into cookie-cutter builds in order to remain relevant.

From my post in The Balance Change post:


Fighters do need more meaningful Feats, since this is pretty much their sole class ability and Feats don't match up to many/most other class abilities. But these seem both lackluster and will eat up those Feats rapidly. Design Feats which scale with level, not Feats which need to be stacked up on each other to remain meaningful as the Fighter levels.

I am aware that the various weapon style Feat chains come directly from PnP D&D, but there's nothing stopping you from moving away from that source. If a weapon style Feat scaled with Fighter level a Fighter could take TWF and have it provide the benefits of ITWF/GTWF as they leveled without having to continue to advance it at a cost of more feats, which only serves to reduce that class ability of having more Feats in the first place.

I hope I'm being clear here. A system which says to the Fighter "Hey, you get piles of Feats, enjoy!" and then essentially forces the Fighter to spend those Feats on a few clearly superior Feat chains essentially eliminates the advantage of that class ability. More Feats should allow a Fighter to customize their build, spend a few or several on non-traditional choices so that they stand out from their peers. More Feats should not just offer a Fighter another shoehorn to spend their Feats on so they again are all just carbon copies of each other.

The same of course applies to the THF and SWF chains. If it's too difficult to make this work since other classes can take those chains as well, then block Fighters from taking the existing Feats and design Fighter only Feats which mirror the weapon style chains but don't require a constant investment of more Feats to keep them relevant.

And while were talking about Feats and balance, there are a whole lot of Feats which probably have a very minimal presence in the game, and then perhaps only because a player may not realize just how nigh-useless the Feat is when compared to their other Feat choices. Some balance attention is well warranted there.

[Vyrzain]

................

A system which says to the Fighter "Hey, you get piles of Feats, enjoy!" and then essentially forces the Fighter to spend those Feats on a few clearly superior Feat chains essentially eliminates the advantage of that class ability.
More Feats should allow a Fighter to customize their build, spend a few or several on non-traditional choices so that they stand out from their peers.

More Feats should not just offer a Fighter another shoehorn to spend their Feats on so they again are all just carbon copies of each other.

The same of course applies to the THF and SWF chains.

If it's too difficult to make this work since other classes can take those chains as well, then block Fighters from taking the existing Feats and design Fighter only Feats which mirror the weapon style chains but don't require a constant investment of more Feats to keep them relevant.

And while were talking about Feats and balance, there are a whole lot of Feats which probably have a very minimal presence in the game, and then perhaps only because a player may not realize just how nigh-useless the Feat is when compared to their other Feat choices. Some balance attention is well warranted there.

/Agree

[Jeromio]

maybe magic trainin, quicken, emp heal, the 2 toughness feats?

i mean you are a mostly fighter right?

they cant deal that much good?

i don't know your build specs, so may be off there.

This was my thought as well when reading through the feat list.

And who says that you must have all 8 new feats? It's a matter of choice.
If you want max defence, take all 4 new MRR feats. If you want max DC for combat feats, take all 4 new DC feats. Or you could mix it, taking 2 of each.

[Blastyswa]

maybe magic trainin, quicken, emp heal, the 2 toughness feats?

i mean you are a mostly fighter right?

they cant deal that much good?

i don't know your build specs, so may be off there.

Downside is that not having the metamagic feats is a big hit to survivability/soloability, even if not tanking since fighter has limited spellpoints and limited spellpower. I'll probably drop the toughness feats for one of the PRR/MRR feats, which will be 120 health for 12 PRR/MRR. Will have to see how it actually compares.

[Blastyswa]

Agreed. The Fighter's only class ability is having a pile of Feats. They have a crappy skill list, poor skill points, and their only ability which is distinct from some other class is the ability to use Tower Shields, which is in itself merely a Feat already applied for the character.

Introducing a bunch of "must have" Feats is very poor game design. It will only serve to force players into cookie-cutter builds in order to remain relevant.

From my post in The Balance Change post:


Fighters do need more meaningful Feats, since this is pretty much their sole class ability and Feats don't match up to many/most other class abilities. But these seem both lackluster and will eat up those Feats rapidly. Design Feats which scale with level, not Feats which need to be stacked up on each other to remain meaningful as the Fighter levels.

I am aware that the various weapon style Feat chains come directly from PnP D&D, but there's nothing stopping you from moving away from that source. If a weapon style Feat scaled with Fighter level a Fighter could take TWF and have it provide the benefits of ITWF/GTWF as they leveled without having to continue to advance it at a cost of more feats, which only serves to reduce that class ability of having more Feats in the first place.

I hope I'm being clear here. A system which says to the Fighter "Hey, you get piles of Feats, enjoy!" and then essentially forces the Fighter to spend those Feats on a few clearly superior Feat chains essentially eliminates the advantage of that class ability. More Feats should allow a Fighter to customize their build, spend a few or several on non-traditional choices so that they stand out from their peers. More Feats should not just offer a Fighter another shoehorn to spend their Feats on so they again are all just carbon copies of each other.

The same of course applies to the THF and SWF chains. If it's too difficult to make this work since other classes can take those chains as well, then block Fighters from taking the existing Feats and design Fighter only Feats which mirror the weapon style chains but don't require a constant investment of more Feats to keep them relevant.

And while were talking about Feats and balance, there are a whole lot of Feats which probably have a very minimal presence in the game, and then perhaps only because a player may not realize just how nigh-useless the Feat is when compared to their other Feat choices. Some balance attention is well warranted there.

Agreeing with your agreement. Another thing that I didn't mention in the OP but feel is needed to say now is that Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Focus are practically needed for fighters as well in order to get the Keen Edge bonus. In theory, that can be dropped, especially since it will be reduced in power with the improved critical chances, but it's still the biggest DPS improvement for most fighters. Thinking about it now, if these fairly useless feats (+2 melee power still translates to 2-4 extra damage in most situations) were no longer requirements for keen edge, that alone would probably fix this issue. I still don't think that switching all the PRR/MRR bonuses into feats is a good idea, but that would be a workable compromise.

[MysticRhythms]

My question is what exactly I'm supposed to be dropping to pick up 8 more feats (Look at upcoming balance changes if you have no idea what I'm talking about) or 5 at least with top tier tactics boost and all the PRR/MRR bonuses.

Cleave/Great Cleave on a Khopesh build are marginally useful. Which then brings Power Attack into question. Then again, who says you need all 8 feats? Take the top tier tactics feat and the high end PRR/MRR feats.

Or just consider that you might need to sacrifice DPS to get good defenses. That should be a hard decision to make rather than "having everything."

[Blastyswa]

Cleave/Great Cleave on a Khopesh build are marginally useful. Which then brings Power Attack into question. Then again, who says you need all 8 feats? Take the top tier tactics feat and the high end PRR/MRR feats.

Or just consider that you might need to sacrifice DPS to get good defenses. That should be a hard decision to make rather than "having everything."

Well its designed with momentum swing, which necessitates taking Cleave/Great Cleave in order to get good DPS. Power Attack is also a +5 damage bonus at the beginning, which is increased by melee power and tripled on criticals. I'm already expecting DPS to drop substantially, not even including the improved critical changes. The other issue though is that for some reason all MRR type defenses are being relegated into fighter, where previously it was intended as a bonus to Heavy Armor builds. The option to have workable (In difficult content) damage reduction is removed for other classes using heavy armor, and expensive for fighters. My current plan is likely just going to be dropping keen edge; no longer using the entire Weapon Focus: Slashing line will drop damage substantially (+6 melee power, +4 damage, +1 crit threat) but free me up to take 2 stacks of tactics (I'll have to see if that makes stunning blow relevant in new quests or not) and 2 stacks of PRR/MRR (Which, for the cost of two feats, will still get me less defense than was granted for free before these changes).

I'm just still not seeing the logic in the decision to necessitate taking multiple feats to have relevant DCs and defenses where previously these bonuses were provided for free, and relegating the ability to get EQUAL defense as before to a class that has not been shown to be overpowering through the taking of 4 feats.

[Arlathen]

This is my current feat list for my 18/2 Fighter Paladin.

1.Magical Training

Human. Force of Personality

Fighter. Shield Mastery

Fighter. Improved Shield Bash

3. Power Attack

Fighter. Khopesh Proficiency

6. Cleave

Fighter. Great Cleave

Fighter. Weapon Focus: Slashing

9. Weapon Specialization: Slashing

Fighter. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing

Fighter. Improved Critical: Slashing

12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

15. Empower Heal

Fighter. Improved Shield Mastery

18. Quicken

Fighter. Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing

Fighter. Stunning Blow

21. Overwhelming Critical

24. Shield Deflection

26. Toughness

27. Epic Toughness

28. Two-Weapon Fighting (Doublestrike)


My question is what exactly I'm supposed to be dropping to pick up 8 more feats (Look at upcoming balance changes if you have no idea what I'm talking about) or 5 at least with top tier tactics boost and all the PRR/MRR bonuses. For a TWF or SWF build they don't need the shield feats, but would only be gaining one feat that way. I could potentially drop the Toughness/Epic Toughness combo for a loss of about 110 health (80 +40%) and gain one normal feat and one ED feat, or I can gimp saves, drop stunning blow, or lose some DPS. All in all, I'm not really seeing where the developers saw an opening in pure fighters for these feats. I can't really drop force of personality, since with the upcoming divine grace nerf my workable saves will be dropped substantially, even more so if I pull points out of charisma or drop FoP.

Just leave PRR/MRR on armor like they are already. Alternatively, if paladins being survivable is really that big of an issue, autogrant the proposed feats to fighters.

(Let it be noted that this particular build is a tanky defense one. It has quite a bit of emphasis on defense through feats; however, it does not have ranged, which many fighter builds attempt to incorporate and will now be hard pressed between defense or choices.)

I'm assumiong a Vanguard Fighter? I think I would look at dropping:

1. Quicken - Can't take this unless you have atleast 4 Paladin levels and ability to cast Paladins spells, IIRC
2. Empower Heal - Same reason as above
3. Toughness - Stalwart Defender enhancements can easily make up for the loss of these hit points through Tenacious Defense, and you can gain PRR/MRR through the new feats.
4. Epic Toughness - Same Reason as above
5. Shield Deflection - Swap it for a MRR feat - I'd rather be swinging with more MRR than stood there actively blocking
6. Force of Personality - You already have Divine Grace, and with certain items out there in the game (Spell Absorption, Perma-FoM) this is somewhat redundant if you ask me
7. Greater Weapon Focus - You can lose 2 Melee Power and gain 50% Helplessness for trash killing by having a viable Stunning Blow. Its not needed for Kensai
8. Superior Weapon Focus - Same Reason as above

There's 8 feats right off the bat, although personally I'd swap Khopesh feat for either B.Sword or DAxes and take the Two Handed Fighting feats as well somewhere, depending on if you like lots of Crits or Bigger Crits. This way you can add up the extra AoE DPS of doing Glancing Blows into the equation as well.

So, Swap Khopesh to DAxe/BSword, remove the 8 above feats and slot 3x THF feats, PTHF, then top 2x DC Feats and top 2x PRR/MRR Feats. That's +14 to Tactics and +21 PRR/MRR.