Raid XP.

[FranOhmsford]

Yesterday I logged on to find an EE CitW LFM up - I jumped at the chance to get my Favour and after 20-30 minutes filling and over an hour in the Raid {Oh and I won the Death Count with 11 too - Yay me!} we got 75k!

Yep that's right - SEVENTY FIVE THOUSAND XP for an EE 1st Time BB run!

In an HOUR LONG RAID!

I can get that in 10 minutes running a second daily VoN 3 {the first will give far more}!

VoN 5 gives about 250k 1st time E-BB without using a Pot - That's the sort of XP we should see from EE-CitW! Maybe then more people would run this Raid!


CitW is a great Raid - It's a TRUE Raid, It feels like a RAID! The problem is the rewards are far far too weak!

[stoopid_cowboy]

With the exception of Von5, all epic raids need to have their XP doubled and in some cases tripled!
CiTW has been stupidly low since day one. FoT is too low, and I won't even start with LoB and MA...

C'mon Turbine, give us a reason to run raids other than loot and comm farming.

[Qhualor]

Von 5 xp should see a big nerf hammer. The challenge no longer matches the xp.

[Basura_Grande]

Raids should be about loot, not XP. It's kinda annoying when people hit your EE Defiler LFM in tier 3 Magister.

[FranOhmsford]

With the exception of Von5, all epic raids need to have their XP doubled and in some cases tripled!
CiTW has been stupidly low since day one. FoT is too low, and I won't even start with LoB and MA...

C'mon Turbine, give us a reason to run raids other than loot and comm farming.

http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Vault_of_Night
http://ddowiki.com/page/Defiler_of_the_Just

LOL!

Vault of Night = 56,715 Base XP on EE {4 times that and more on a 1st time E-BB completion}.
Defiler = 18,202 Base XP on EE!

Defiler is 8 Levels HIGHER than VoN 5!

I know what the Devs problem is here - Defiler is a comparatively quick Farm {not as much so as MoD but a lot quicker than VoN 5} and Timer Bypasses have enabled people to do 20 runs in a day {30 mins per run and many players can do 10 hrs straight} so that works out to a large chunk of XP.
However:
Ransack penalties are already high and could be made higher for Raid XP to avoid that problem straight off the bat. {OR the Devs could remove Raid Timers from the store entirely and let the ones we have get used up so as to stop Raid Burnout from happening so fast!}.


Defiler absolutely needs to have it's XP doubled - It is shorter than VoN 5 so that should be enough.
CitW http://ddowiki.com/page/Caught_in_the_Web {Wow 19k Base on EE!!!} on the other hand is an Hour Long Raid on EE and deserves the same XP as VoN 5 currently gives {NOT 75k for a 1st time E-BB!}!

[JOTMON]

Yesterday I logged on to find an EE CitW LFM up - I jumped at the chance to get my Favour and after 20-30 minutes filling and over an hour in the Raid {Oh and I won the Death Count with 11 too - Yay me!} we got 75k!

Yep that's right - SEVENTY FIVE THOUSAND XP for an EE 1st Time BB run!

In an HOUR LONG RAID!

I can get that in 10 minutes running a second daily VoN 3 {the first will give far more}!

VoN 5 gives about 250k 1st time E-BB without using a Pot - That's the sort of XP we should see from EE-CitW! Maybe then more people would run this Raid!


CitW is a great Raid - It's a TRUE Raid, It feels like a RAID! The problem is the rewards are far far too weak!

CITW is a bad comparative, cant split up to obtain objectives since it is an escort Anna to points where mobs only spawn when Anna approaches..
So you cant have half the party start the fight and the other half run off to do portals, then meet up for endfight.
Its a very linear Raid and little opportunity to split up.. more of a surround each mob and mass beatdown, move to next mob, rinse/repeat.

Von5 on the other hand is a great quest design, it requires players to regroup at certain focal points but has several offshoots that can be handled by varying group sizes dependant on skill and ability.
as players became more experienced with the quest more players could fracture off and do aspects which results in faster completion times and efficiency of teamwork.

that said.. many of the raids offer poor XP, I believe the consensus was (in newer raids) that raids were not meant for XP farming since they were intended to be ground repeatedly for loot.
Which takes many raids off the table during TR lives since the timers get reset and most raids are not worth flagging to run once or twice and move on... just run content that gives decent XP..

[FranOhmsford]

Von 5 xp should see a big nerf hammer. The challenge no longer matches the xp.

VoN 5 is 45 mins for a decent Group - I wouldn't mind a small nerf IF other Raids were buffed at the same time BUT a big nerf? NO!

Heck if Caught in the Web gave 56k Base XP it STILL wouldn't get run as much as VoN 5/6. Because as you say VoN 5/6 is much easier AND shorter AND VoN 6 adds another 20-30k on top!
BUT
I wouldn't nerf VoN 5/6 too hard or you'll get a HUGE backlash!
Especially if you don't buff the other Epic Raids at the same time!

[Basura_Grande]

http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Vault_of_Night
http://ddowiki.com/page/Defiler_of_the_Just

LOL!

Vault of Night = 56,715 Base XP on EE {4 times that and more on a 1st time E-BB completion}.
Defiler = 18,202 Base XP on EE!

Defiler is 8 Levels HIGHER than VoN 5

Anyone trying to run EE Defiler from XP will be black-listed from any group actually capable of beating Defilier on EE.

Please leave raids about loot.

[FranOhmsford]

CITW is a bad comparative, cant split up to obtain objectives since it is an escort Anna to points where mobs only spawn when Anna approaches..
So you cant have half the party start the fight and the other half run off to do portals, then meet up for endfight.
Its a very linear Raid and little opportunity to split up.. more of a surround each mob and mass beatdown, move to next mob, rinse/repeat.

That has nothing to do with it other than showing a reason why VoN 5 is quicker to run than CitW.

Which is another reason why CitW should give a LOT more XP than it currently does - I wouldn't give it more than current VoN 5 though for the simple reason that 250k {1st run E-BB} is about as much as a single Raid should EVER be worth FULL STOP!

Von5 on the other hand is a great quest design, it requires players to regroup at certain focal points but has several offshoots that can be handled by varying group sizes dependant on skill and ability.
as players became more experienced with the quest more players could fracture off and do aspects which results in faster completion times and efficiency of teamwork.

Did I disparage VoN 5? I don't think I did.
Did I say VoN 5 wasn't a Real Raid, a True Raid or didn't feel like a Raid? NO! {Those remarks were aimed at the likes of Fall of Truth and Mark of Death!}.

VoN 5 is a GREAT RAID!

Up there with Shroud, Titan {Pt 1}, Tempest Spine, Abbot, Hound of Xoriat and CitW for giving the FEELING of being in a RAID!

And VoN 5 does splitting up mechanics well {a lot of quests/raids don't} so I am in no way attacking VoN 5 here - Just using it as an example of why CitW gives far too little XP for the time and effort involved!

that said.. many of the raids offer poor XP, I believe the consensus was (in newer raids) that raids were not meant for XP farming since they were intended to be ground repeatedly for loot.
Which takes many raids off the table during TR lives since the timers get reset and most raids are not worth flagging to run once or twice and move on... just run content that gives decent XP..

Exactly!

Loot Runs don't give XP anyway most of the time - They're either ransack runs or run massively over-level so you don't need to worry about Raids giving too much XP.

And once you've got your Loot there's no reason to come back to a certain Raid {this is why Shroud is easily the most popular Raid in the game! The Loot never runs out!}.

So unless every new Raid has a Loot system like Heroic Greensteel they NEED enough XP to keep players coming back!

[FranOhmsford]

Anyone trying to run EE Defiler from XP will be black-listed from any group actually capable of beating Defilier on EE.

Please leave raids about loot.

What loot?

The Loot you got from your first 10 runs?

what reason is there for you to ever go back and re-run Defiler {more than once per life and that isn't even necessary} again once you've got your Loot?


XP on those first few runs is a Bonus - And who cares if someone in full destiny with all twists wants some XP to get from 27-28 {or 29-30 in a few months}? The problem here is your belief that wanting XP means not being ready to pull your weight!

Trust me - People who aren't able to pull their weight in EE Defiler or EE MoD are running EE Defilers and MoDs!
They want the Loot too - In fact it may be that Loot that helps them BECOME capable quicker!


And I've always been against End-Game Quests giving XP - As far as I'm concerned End-Game quests should only be enterable by players who are already capped...So XP would be pointless!
BUT
That doesn't describe the current End-Game Raids - Which are run by players from Lvl 20-28!

[JOTMON]

That has nothing to do with it other than showing a reason why VoN 5 is quicker to run than CitW.

Which is another reason why CitW should give a LOT more XP than it currently does - I wouldn't give it more than current VoN 5 though for the simple reason that 250k {1st run E-BB} is about as much as a single Raid should EVER be worth FULL STOP!

That was my point, if CITW mobs spawned at all points throughout the web except the first and endfight without Anna a lot of the web could be prepped with a split party.

Did I disparage VoN 5? I don't think I did.
Did I say VoN 5 wasn't a Real Raid, a True Raid or didn't feel like a Raid? NO! {Those remarks were aimed at the likes of Fall of Truth and Mark of Death!}.

VoN 5 is a GREAT RAID!

Up there with Shroud, Titan {Pt 1}, Tempest Spine, Abbot, Hound of Xoriat and CitW for giving the FEELING of being in a RAID!

And VoN 5 does splitting up mechanics well {a lot of quests/raids don't} so I am in no way attacking VoN 5 here - Just using it as an example of why CitW gives far too little XP for the time and effort involved!

I wasn't calling you out, just pointing out that Von5 was designed in an excellent way.
Its the new raids that have not presented well when comparing to Von5.

Exactly!

Loot Runs don't give XP anyway most of the time - They're either ransack runs or run massively over-level so you don't need to worry about Raids giving too much XP.

And once you've got your Loot there's no reason to come back to a certain Raid {this is why Shroud is easily the most popular Raid in the game! The Loot never runs out!}.

So unless every new Raid has a Loot system like Heroic Greensteel they NEED enough XP to keep players coming back!

CITW from my perspective should give more XP than Von5/6.

Von 5 takes 4 quests to flag.

CITW.. Menance of the Underdark expansion pack.
to even get to Eveningstar chain
LOD- 4 quests
Chain 1- 4 quests
Underdark explorer to find portals to be able to port to Sschindylryn
Chain 2- 4 quests
Chain 3- 3 quests

so 15 quests, 4 explorer zones to flag for the CITW raid... and you have a babysitting run with Anna that affects your loot and shrine options (worse considering Lloth sucks sp.)
I would have CITW give way more XP relative to the prep time involved getting raid ready.


The issue still remains, everyone expects players to be at their best when current level running raids, not off destiny xp'ing.
which makes XP irrelevant for most Raid runs, raids for named loot and raid required ingredients.

The general expectation is you run your XP needs in quests, explorers, and flagging quests, when its Raid time, be at your best.

[Qhualor]

VoN 5 is 45 mins for a decent Group - I wouldn't mind a small nerf IF other Raids were buffed at the same time BUT a big nerf? NO!

Heck if Caught in the Web gave 56k Base XP it STILL wouldn't get run as much as VoN 5/6. Because as you say VoN 5/6 is much easier AND shorter AND VoN 6 adds another 20-30k on top!
BUT
I wouldn't nerf VoN 5/6 too hard or you'll get a HUGE backlash!
Especially if you don't buff the other Epic Raids at the same time!

that's 45 minutes in a pug without clear leadership and everyone not working together and piking. ive been in good pugs that get it done in 30 minutes or less.

its been a long time since I ran CITW, let alone at BB level, but 75k sounds about right to me on EE. the problem is that its not run so much or even above normal that a lot of players don't have the mechanics of the raid down well.

I ran EE Deathwyrm for the first time the other day and got 95k or so. I thought that was pretty good given my multiple deaths, having my stone carried through that red light green light room because I didn't have an ioun stone and poor teamwork from some of the group (yes I include myself since I was overwhelmed not knowing what to do my first time in there).

[stoopid_cowboy]

Raids should be about loot, not XP.

I sir, disagree.
Raids should be about BOTH. VoN is probably the most run raid of all time. It gives great XP and still has valid loot many years later.

Raiding is dead. Everyone has the gear they want. Now it's about the XP hamster wheel. There is a reason everyone runs VoN3, Whiz King, and Spies every day. If raids gave a reasonable amount of XP, they would be in your every 3 day list. Even better, one day is VoN3/Whiz King/Spies- Von5/6-CiTW, the next day VoN3/Whiz King/Spies-DoJ-LoB-MoD, the next day VoN3/Whiz King/Spies-Fire dragon-Shadow dragon, repeat...

[FranOhmsford]

that's 45 minutes in a pug without clear leadership and everyone not working together and piking. ive been in good pugs that get it done in 30 minutes or less.

Are you kidding me?

30 mins isn't just a good pug it's a perfect run!

And how long does ADQ take? Or MoD? Or FoT? FoT is what - 15 mins now? MoD is 10? ADQ is 5?

30 mins is a long time for DDO - Not many Quests or Raids take that long with a Group that knows what they're doing - Even the longest quests can be done easily in less time than that!
VoN 3 gives 100k for 6-8 minutes!, Wiz King gives 150k for 5 mins!, Chains of Flame gives 95k for 20 mins and is considered a Bad XP Quest!?! {And all these are on EN!}.

VoN 5 may give more than it should but when compared to other Raids it's them that give too little - WAY TOO LITTLE!

its been a long time since I ran CITW, let alone at BB level, but 75k sounds about right to me on EE. the problem is that its not run so much or even above normal that a lot of players don't have the mechanics of the raid down well.

75K sounds about right? Again I simply can't see how you can say that with a straight face!

We're talking about EE! 75K would be low for EN!

CitW is an Hour long quest and more on EE! It should give commensurate rewards!

It's also NOT an End-Game Raid - It's meant to be run at Lvl 24-25! {28s can get BB in it but when the Cap goes up 29s won't be able to!}.

XP in Epics isn't just about Destiny Farming - Many people have completed their Destinies and still need XP to get to 28 over and over again {soon to be 30}. You can run EE-CitW at Lvl 20 after an E-TR and in full Destiny with all twists and multiple past lives - You may even be the strongest character in the group! Why shouldn't you get XP worth your time exactly?

And Loot doesn't even enter this conversation when it comes to CitW - We all know the Loot isn't worth the hassle!

I ran EE Deathwyrm for the first time the other day and got 95k or so. I thought that was pretty good given my multiple deaths, having my stone carried through that red light green light room because I didn't have an ioun stone and poor teamwork from some of the group (yes I include myself since I was overwhelmed not knowing what to do my first time in there).

Deathwyrm is an End-Game quest at the moment and 95K isn't bad {Were you on a full BB streak and 1st run?}- It's certainly better than CitW. Deathwyrm is also quite a bit shorter than CitW.
I'd up Deathwyrm to give maybe 120-150k 1st time E-BB Completion.
I'd up CitW to current VoN 5 levels of XP!
VoN 5 could perhaps be docked 10k off it's Base but ONLY if other Epic Raids get a boost!

[Qhualor]

Are you kidding me?

30 mins isn't just a good pug it's a perfect run!

And how long does ADQ take? Or MoD? Or FoT? FoT is what - 15 mins now? MoD is 10? ADQ is 5?

30 mins is a long time for DDO - Not many Quests or Raids take that long with a Group that knows what they're doing - Even the longest quests can be done easily in less time than that!
VoN 3 gives 100k for 6-8 minutes!, Wiz King gives 150k for 5 mins!, Chains of Flame gives 95k for 20 mins and is considered a Bad XP Quest!?! {And all these are on EN!}.

VoN 5 may give more than it should but when compared to other Raids it's them that give too little - WAY TOO LITTLE!



75K sounds about right? Again I simply can't see how you can say that with a straight face!

We're talking about EE! 75K would be low for EN!

CitW is an Hour long quest and more on EE! It should give commensurate rewards!

It's also NOT an End-Game Raid - It's meant to be run at Lvl 24-25! {28s can get BB in it but when the Cap goes up 29s won't be able to!}.

XP in Epics isn't just about Destiny Farming - Many people have completed their Destinies and still need XP to get to 28 over and over again {soon to be 30}. You can run EE-CitW at Lvl 20 after an E-TR and in full Destiny with all twists and multiple past lives - You may even be the strongest character in the group! Why shouldn't you get XP worth your time exactly?

And Loot doesn't even enter this conversation when it comes to CitW - We all know the Loot isn't worth the hassle!



Deathwyrm is an End-Game quest at the moment and 95K isn't bad {Were you on a full BB streak and 1st run?}- It's certainly better than CitW. Deathwyrm is also quite a bit shorter than CitW.
I'd up Deathwyrm to give maybe 120-150k 1st time E-BB Completion.
I'd up CitW to current VoN 5 levels of XP!
VoN 5 could perhaps be docked 10k off it's Base but ONLY if other Epic Raids get a boost!

ADQ today is short and can easily be shortmanned. back in the day highly unlikely just like Von 5 was. EE Von 5 is often started shortman filling as they go. I have no idea about MOD or FOT because ive never run them, but I hear they are done quick nowadays. that just goes to show how powerful characters have gotten over the years and why I think raids like Von 5 need their xp re-adjusted down. I know it wont happen though.

raids USED to take 30 minutes to an hour, sometimes even longer. only reason why Von 5 takes so long still is because most players like max xp in there, it requires multiple players to pull levers, group needs to split, puzzler, knowing the order of things like ring and talking to the head and turning wheels. that's not including some groups get chatty and have to deal with pikers. the other raids don't get like that.

I thought we were talking about raid xp, not quests? ok, anyways, Wiz King and Von 3 at one time were very difficult to complete in the day. ive never been in a 8 minute Von 3 group before, but I have in Wiz King. all Wiz King is, is splitting the group up and running straight to the top of the towers to find Wiz King and get the phylactery. in the day, the xp was fitting. now they need to be nerfed down because the challenge doesn't match the xp anymore.

I think the other raids, minus MOD, FOT and DoJ because I haven't run them yet, have the rightish amount of xp. Von 5 gives too much now that we can steamroll it.

<--- straight face

sorry, my opinion, but 75k for a low level raid that isn't really run much anymore is still good. the loot you can get is still worth having and very much viable all the way through to 28. the xp doesn't need to be bumped because of that. if players are trying to level, there are far more easier and quicker ways than running EE raids.

the rewards should be more about the loot than the xp. that's the biggest reasons why players run raids. unfortunately for raids like TS and Von 5, they are so easy now that they are run for the xp mostly. most of the loot is outdated. Shroud is run for the loot and barely ever run for xp hence the 17-28 lfms.

yes, BB and first run ever. im sure it can be done quicker, but I believe we were in there for 1/2 to 45 minutes. given the rewards you get for completion and how powerful TF weapons are currently, I don't think the xp needs a bump.