Crit range Nerf incoming!

[Robai]

Even though it's probably the same numerically as Sireth, you may want to add the Skullsmasher because it is one of the weapons getting hit hardest by this nerf unless they change Swashbuckler somehow.

Done!
It doesn't look like Skullsmasher is getting a big nerf since in comparison table I included only up to +2 bonus to crit range, but in Swashbukler you can have quite high crit ranges (I'm not sure what's doubled there by IC feat).

Pure Acrobats still get +20% atk speed, +20% base doublestrike, and Quick Strike (effectively another +16.7% doublestrike) compared to regular 2H weapons. Now that Pulverizer stacks w/Staff Spec, an LD Acro using crafted staves will still have 17-20/x3 crit profile; Stoat Oak is 17-20/x4. Despite the crit nerf to some of the named staves (inc. my Sireth), I'm not worried about Acrobat DPS.

My pally staff build will be ITRing sooner rather than later, though. I was already feeling envious of pure Acrobats' extra +10% doublestrike (vs Zeal) and sneak atks; now that Manyshot is being nerfed too, my burst ranged DPS option is losing its appeal. Might as well switch to a pure Acrobat.

Don't forget that pure Acrobats have to melee in Light armor. So the dps will be lowered by the time spent on heals, displacement, avoiding larger groups of mobs, etc.

[Jetrule]

I hope the two named staffs hardest hit get some attention. This is as drastic a power decrease for them as anything swashbuckler has to deal with.

[Grace_ana]

... keep playing?

That's what I'm doing with my character. Was this a serious question?

Yes, it's a serious question. Some classes are losing up to a quarter of their DPS. Others are losing around 12-15%. This is enough that, for several classes, you can't kill things fast enough before they kill you. It makes it rather difficult to play. You probably won't see it in heroics as much, or on epic normal. But some epic hard (depending on the toon, past lives, gear, class, etc.) and certainly epic elite will be unplayable for many toons.

[Thrudh]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):

Weapon	Base crit range	+ Old IC feat	+ New IC feat	+1 range bonus + Old IC	+1 range bonus + New IC	+2 range bonus + Old IC	+2 range bonus + New IC
ESoS/SoS	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Sireth	18-20	15-20	17-20 (nerfed by 2)	13-20	16-20 (nerfed by 3)	11-20	15-20 (nerfed by 4)
Bone Crusher	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Bone Crusher	18-20	15-20	17-20 (nerfed by 2)	13-20	16-20 (nerfed by 3)	11-20	15-20 (nerfed by 4)
Needle	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Pinion	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Riftmaker	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Epic Assassin's Kiss	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Mutineer's Blade	17-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20	9-20	12-20
Deathnip	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Balizarde	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Tiefling Assassin's Blade	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Sky Pirate's Dagger	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Whirlwind	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Rebellion	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Drow Quarterstaff	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Drow Rapier	17-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20	9-20	12-20
Carnifex	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Skullsmasher	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20

ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

EDIT 3:
The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

• Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
• If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
• Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.

This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

Wow, these changes look great... It looks like the devs are doing a very good job BALANCING weapons... Good job OP pointing out how broken the crit ranges were before the proposed BALANCE change... 9-20 crit range? Hah! That's just stupid.

I'm very happy with the changes, devs.

[Powerhungry]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):

Weapon	Base crit range	+ Old IC feat	+ New IC feat	+1 range bonus + Old IC	+1 range bonus + New IC	+2 range bonus + Old IC	+2 range bonus + New IC
ESoS/SoS	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Sireth	18-20	15-20	17-20 (nerfed by 2)	13-20	16-20 (nerfed by 3)	11-20	15-20 (nerfed by 4)
Bone Crusher	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Bone Crusher	18-20	15-20	17-20 (nerfed by 2)	13-20	16-20 (nerfed by 3)	11-20	15-20 (nerfed by 4)
Needle	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Pinion	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Epic Riftmaker	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20
Epic Assassin's Kiss	19-20	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Mutineer's Blade	17-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20	9-20	12-20
Deathnip	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Balizarde	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	15-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20
Tiefling Assassin's Blade	18-20 (w/o Keen)	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Sky Pirate's Dagger	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	17-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20
Whirlwind	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Rebellion	18-20	15-20	16-20	13-20	15-20	11-20	14-20
Drow Quarterstaff	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Drow Rapier	17-20	13-20	14-20	11-20	13-20	9-20	12-20
Carnifex	19-20 (w/o Keen)	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20	13-20	16-20
Skullsmasher	20-20	19-20	19-20	17-20	18-20	15-20	17-20

ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

EDIT 3:
The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

• Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
• If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
• Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.

This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

Oathblade http://ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade is not on your list and will be affected. That is a weapon that was designed with both an expanded crit range and keen put on it BY THE DEVS. This is a weapon that is WAI as it was built by them. Why do the (new) devs feel the need to nerf it (it was nerfed once already when they ruined vorpal).

[Thrudh]

Changes from the + Old IC feat to the + New IC feat columns are nerfs and should be discuses with the dev it would be nice if they looked at these weapons and they corrected then on the weapon it self, as most of them were intended to crit more often.

Exactly... There's a couple of named items that are getting hit extra hard... Maybe the devs should look at those. But in general, the new numbers in the New IC feat column are exactly what they should have been all along.

Two named quarterstaffs are the only problems in that list. That list is just proof that the change is generally well designed.

[AngryDude]

What is the ETA on the nerf? I'm sure it was noted somewhere else already but missed an ETA.

[Thrudh]

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

Now this is a decent post... The devs might listen to us if we talk about specific problems with the system, not condemning any decrease in DPS as an unacceptable nerf that will cause the game to crash and burn.

Hyperbole gets us nowhere... People stop listening if all one does is rant and rave.

[Thrudh]

Ironically, barbs should see the smallest DPS hit, yet they're arguably the class everyone agrees is most OP!

Because of their self-healing, not because of their DPS. I don't think anyone has a problem with barbs having a lot of DPS. And the devs are addressing that somewhat. It's on their radar.

[Thrudh]

Yes, it's a serious question. Some classes are losing up to a quarter of their DPS. Others are losing around 12-15%. This is enough that, for several classes, you can't kill things fast enough before they kill you. It makes it rather difficult to play. You probably won't see it in heroics as much, or on epic normal. But some epic hard (depending on the toon, past lives, gear, class, etc.) and certainly epic elite will be unplayable for many toons.

Some epic elite quests will be harder to solo? Say it isn't so!

Unplayable for many characters after losing 12%-15% DPS? No, sorry... Try some aggro control and playing smarter if you simply must SOLO the more difficult epic elites and find your DPS is not enough to zerg through everything.

And don't pull out the "Oh, this hurts casual players more!" card... They aren't trying to solo the harder epic elite quests.

[Robai]

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

Added Silver Longbow.

Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.

Added Stout Oak Walking Stick, Epic Elemental Bloom, Elemental Bloom.

Oathblade http://ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade is not on your list and will be affected. That is a weapon that was designed with both an expanded crit range and keen put on it BY THE DEVS. This is a weapon that is WAI as it was built by them. Why do the (new) devs feel the need to nerf it (it was nerfed once already when they ruined vorpal).

Done!

[Robai]

Added table with the correct nerf.

[Axeyu]

Added table with the correct nerf.

Why is it so bad that named weapons with crit improvements are no longer as much of an auto pick?

[Robai]

Why is it so bad that named weapons with crit improvements are no longer as much of an auto pick?

Do you auto pick up Drow weapons?
Do you auto pick up Falcions or Rapiers?
Do you auto pick up Mutineer's Blade when you hit lvl 24?

[bartharok]

Do you auto pick up Drow weapons?
Do you auto pick up Falcions or Rapiers?
Do you auto pick up Mutineer's Blade when you hit lvl 24?

Juat my opinion, but ive noticed that i look more at the crit profile than the base damage for most weapons.

Thus i can see why the nerf is needed.

Oh, and it will affect me, but i still dont think its a bad idea.

[unbongwah]

It doesn't look like Skullsmasher is getting a big nerf since in comparison table I included only up to +2 bonus to crit range, but in Swashbukler you can have quite high crit ranges (I'm not sure what's doubled there by IC feat).

Current:
LD: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 15-20/x4 IC:Blunt -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit) Pulverizer doesn't stack w/Swashbuckling
DC: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 17-20/x4 Celestial Champion -> 13-20/x4 IC:Blunt ->13-18/x4 19-20/x5 (OC)

Proposed changes:
LD: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 17-20/x4 IC:Blunt -> 16-20/x4 Pulverizer -> 16-18/x4 19-20/x6 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit) Pulverizer will stack w/Swashbuckling
DC: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 17-20/x4 IC:Blunt -> 16-18/x4 19-20/x6 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit)

So LD Swashies using Skullsmasher will only lose 5% crit change (-3 effective hits); but DC Swashies lose 15% crit chance (-9 effective hits). [In other EDs you lose 10% crit chance vs current live.] As I've said elsewhere, making DC even less viable vs LD than it already is doesn't seem like a great balance tweak...

Now that being said, Turbine has said they're aware of this issue re:Swashbucklers and Assassins, so we'll see if they fix it.

[Grace_ana]

Some epic elite quests will be harder to solo? Say it isn't so!

Unplayable for many characters after losing 12%-15% DPS? No, sorry... Try some aggro control and playing smarter if you simply must SOLO the more difficult epic elites and find your DPS is not enough to zerg through everything.

And don't pull out the "Oh, this hurts casual players more!" card... They aren't trying to solo the harder epic elite quests.

Please point out where I said "solo." I didn't. I've never solo'd EE. I also don't want to pike it because my DPS sucks and so I die and am easier to deal with as a soulstone.

And yes, it hurts casual players for the same reasons. Sorry you're stuck on your image of soloing "elitists."

[redoubt]

Expanded crit weapons are not "autopick". There are some that are better at level than other lootgen. There are some that are not.

What I will say is that the margin on most of these weapons is small enough, that without the crit bonuses applying, they will be "don't pick".

I'll go back to my silver lowbow example. Even now, this is not an "autopick". I didn't even use it on my last moncher life. I can craft weapons that do better steady dps.

However, look at weapons like carniflex. This are very common weapons at low level due to their crit range.

Now these may be bad examples because they exist below the min level for IC feat. I'll have to ponder some of the expanded crit weapons that are higher level (because I tend to just use green steel.)

[EllisDee37]

Now these may be bad examples because they exist below the min level for IC feat.

Carnifex has keen as a property, and keen is getting the same treatment as IC, so Carnifex would be changing from 17-20x3 to 18-20x3.

[AbyssalMage]

Some epic elite quests will be harder to solo? Say it isn't so!

Unplayable for many characters after losing 12%-15% DPS? No, sorry... Try some aggro control and playing smarter if you simply must SOLO the more difficult epic elites and find your DPS is not enough to zerg through everything.

And don't pull out the "Oh, this hurts casual players more!" card... They aren't trying to solo the harder epic elite quests.

So sorry to harp on you personally, but do you understand what 12-15% loss in DPS means? Do you understand how badly this effects content in EE? People throw around %'s without actually understanding what it means.

Maybe if people start using numbers (DPS) instead of %'s, people will understand the gravity of the problem.