The Balance Change post

[Mojo_d]

Having played paladin hybrid throwers and twf melees,I can agree that they are pretty overpowered.And yes,pure fighters seems to have fallen behind in the last updates,but for way longer than fighters,poor monks havent gotten any love.While these changes will balance things,and maybe help fighters a bit,monks will fall even more behind,making them a class that someone picks only 2 levels of it for that evasion feat and the 2 extra feats,not even considering fighting unarmed.I understand that this would require even more work since unarmed combat has always been buggy,but wouldnt it be better to make some time and work on a monks pass maybe,some balance changes having this class also in mind?All I'm trying to say,instead of just rushing to balance some things,some other matters grow even bigger.I dont want to make monks overpowered or something,but at least be on par with the rest of the melee classes before nerfing them even more than they already are(seeing the changes in twf...)

[JOTMON]

I like BAB for Physical Resist Rating because it:

- scales with level
- scales faster for those classes that should naturally be more adept with armor and mitigating physical damage

For MRR I could see the logic in tying to enhancement value of the armor as I suggested earlier. Then you're tying Magical Resist Rating to a magical property of the armor itself rather than the imagined tactical prowess of the wearer. That will still tend to scale with level (higher level equating to better quality/more magical armor) but not as fast or as high.

To be clear I'd rather they not change the MRR on armor at all, it's been lowered once already. But using some other factor like enhancement value may be a compromise to what we have now.

PRR from armor is the defensive nature of the armor not the character.
Problem is BAB is an attack bonus measure not a defensive measure.

using BAB does not address the nature and PRR of the armor it unfairly balances PRR to Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger and anyone who can reliably cast Tensors.
..and... I foresee everyone running around with stacks of Tensors Scrolls.

[Apollos713]

Overall, the changes look good, and many of them are very necessary.

As a current monk player in epics I'm not worried about the loss of MP from the TWF feats. Monk updates need to come through enhancement tree edits, not through feats. My monk will still be very effective even with the small loss of MP.

[Delacroix21]

It has been asked already, but what happens with pure monks? They don't get melee power from enhancements.... all monks should be shuriken throwers now or what?

I am waiting on this being answered as well. Waiting at least another 3-4 months is absolutely ridiculous! They need to implement a temporary unarmed fix (like making monk base die 2d6 instead of 1d6, so 20 monk becomes 7d6 instead of 3.5d6) to hold us over until a thorough pass can be done.

[CrackedIce]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Sev~

Excellent changes. No complaints or additional observations at the moment.

I am sad though that I can never see what Pinion will look like with the upcoming changes of +1 crit multiplier in AA and Deepwood threat range to be 15-20 X4 and will
only be 18 - 20 X4. Although, if I go LD, I can still get it to 17 - 20 X4 (which to put into perspective has been the default of Pinion with only the improved crit feat - now I need two more additives to threat to obtain what it was before this pass.

In general, bows will maintain its standard of less often critting especially with the changes to manyshot.

The drow weapons just lost some of their luster - dwarven waraxe will only be 17 - 20 X4 rather than 15 - 20 X4 for my tempest ranger.

In all regard, this really changes the approach to building our characters. Which is a good thing!!

[Hakushi]

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

I'm a little bit concerned about this change. While this will have no effect on all normal weapons, including most of the named weapons, some weapons have a different Natural Crit range. The question is, are these weapons getting nerfed with this change?
As an example, a named Quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 without the Impact enchantment, will it get only +1, or the +2 it used to get?

[Faltout]

Very good changes.

...except the manyshot/10k star change which I've already argued against in the AA thread (and still see the only reason behind this change as being "lag" which we don't see or understand why it's there)

Maybe now the monster damage and HPs can be nerfed a little.

[JOTMON]

I am waiting on this being answered as well. Waiting at least another 3-4 months is absolutely ridiculous! They need to implement a temporary unarmed fix (like making monk base die 2d6 instead of 1d6, so 20 monk becomes 7d6 instead of 3.5d6) to hold us over until a thorough pass can be done.

Well all the monks I have seen have gone Treeform..so you know whats coming next...

[Cordovan]

Having played paladin hybrid throwers and twf melees,I can agree that they are pretty overpowered.And yes,pure fighters seems to have fallen behind in the last updates,but for way longer than fighters,poor monks havent gotten any love.While these changes will balance things,and maybe help fighters a bit,monks will fall even more behind,making them a class that someone picks only 2 levels of it for that evasion feat and the 2 extra feats,not even considering fighting unarmed.I understand that this would require even more work since unarmed combat has always been buggy,but wouldnt it be better to make some time and work on a monks pass maybe,some balance changes having this class also in mind?All I'm trying to say,instead of just rushing to balance some things,some other matters grow even bigger.I dont want to make monks overpowered or something,but at least be on par with the rest of the melee classes before nerfing them even more than they already are(seeing the changes in twf...)

Overall, the changes look good, and many of them are very necessary.

As a current monk player in epics I'm not worried about the loss of MP from the TWF feats. Monk updates need to come through enhancement tree edits, not through feats. My monk will still be very effective even with the small loss of MP.

I am waiting on this being answered as well. Waiting at least another 3-4 months is absolutely ridiculous! They need to implement a temporary unarmed fix (like making monk base die 2d6 instead of 1d6, so 20 monk becomes 7d6 instead of 3.5d6) to hold us over until a thorough pass can be done.

These changes are not meant to replace class improvements, although we appreciate the suggestions that might make sense as a short-term fix. We do plan on working on the monk in the future, although yes, it will most likely be in 2016.

[Cordovan]

I'm a little bit concerned about this change. While this will have no effect on all normal weapons, including most of the named weapons, some weapons have a different Natural Crit range. The question is, are these weapons getting nerfed with this change?
As an example, a named Quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 without the Impact enchantment, will it get only +1, or the +2 it used to get?

Under the proposal, Improved Critical would offer a +1 to the critical threat range of a quarterstaff. So, a regular quarterstaff that is 20/x2 would become 19-20/x2, and a named quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 would become 18-20.

[hit_fido]

PRR from armor is the defensive nature of the armor not the character.

In so far as they have class tree enhancements that increase PRR, and even some that specifically increase PRR only when wearing certain kinds of armor, I can accept a game mechanic where BAB also increases the PRR of armor. I can even suspend disbelief around "attack" bonus and chalk it up to having characters with more tactical combat prowess being able to mitigate damage better when on the attack than characters that aren't so adept at combat.

But it doesn't have to be BAB. Any other factor that satisfies these would be fine to me:

- scales with level: it makes sense to me that a level 20 fighter gets more mitigation out of their chain mail than a level 1 fighter.

- scales with combat prowess: it makes sense to me that a level 10 fighter gets more mitigation out of their chain mail than a level 10 wizard (even if the wizard spent a feat for light armor proficiency)

[Thar]

The changes are designed to cut back on the power of two weapon fighting Paladins, Vanguards, and fix the fact that Paladin 14 hybrids are by many players' estimation the best missile characters. Throwing weapons are not affected by Holy Sword.

Sev~

that estimation is pre ranger/AA pass. Not that enough is being added to the core there to make them overall better that can't be obtained with a ranger splash.

[Thar]

I'm a little bit concerned about this change. While this will have no effect on all normal weapons, including most of the named weapons, some weapons have a different Natural Crit range. The question is, are these weapons getting nerfed with this change?
As an example, a named Quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 without the Impact enchantment, will it get only +1, or the +2 it used to get?

it will change normal weapons. ie those with enhanced crit profiles will not be doubled, they will only get the + as indicated above.

not a huge nerf but makes those expanded crit weapons a bit less good.

[redoubt]

How so,
Kukri is 1d4 @ 18-20x2 and goes to 15-20 x2
Dagger is 1d4 @ 19-20 x2 and goes to 17-20 x2
light mace 1d6 @ 20 x2 goes to 19-20 x2

which weapon do you choose

Agony, same as before. But if you want to spec for slash instead, them EMG probably. Both with TF in the other hand.

Light mace for skellies.

[hit_fido]

• Basic armor offers too much mitigation for its cost. While we are happy that armored characters are relevant again, we want to cut back on it a bit.

Maybe this is the disconnect, and I'm perfectly fine if it's on my end, but I thought the primary reason armored characters are relevant again was the added Magic Resist Rating achieved by having a base amount through armor as well as through some select class tree enhancements only available to certain armor wearing characters. And to some other degree, the adoration of the 30DR/60DR shadow plate.

So removing all Magic Resist Rating from armor is going to put a severe dip in that relevance, or so I would think?

[Basura_Grande]

While you're all at it, Nerf Mortal Fear.

[Slasheboy]

I'd like to ask a question: Does manyshot work only on bows, or does it work on other weapons? Specifically, throwers, non-repeating crossbows, repeaters.

The Manyshot Ability currently seems like a little bit of a nerf at lower levels, and a pretty significant nerf at higher levels, especially for sneak attacking archers (deepwood and rogues). How about compensating by either boosting the base attack speed of bows a little, or perhaps providing a subfeat that focuses on archers who prefer sustained DPS.
The subfeat could work something like this: Activated feat: Sustained Barrage: For the next 120 seconds you add your base attack bonus to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 60 second cooldown and Manyshot on a 120 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

I also urge you to relook at improved critical/keen, especially with weapons like daggers, which became viable due to the interaction with IC and assassin's knife specialization. The list goes on, but this doubly goes for quarterstaves, with the base improvement from specific named weapons combined with acrobat's staff specialization. You could look into changing the enhancements instead, but I don't recommend it.

I really like the tactical changes, though I'd ask that you give a second look at the tactical special attack feats themselves as well, and possibly give a subfeat for a ranged version that has a longer CD. Also, updating them for the new combat meta would be nice, such as improved sunder debuffing -10 PRR on enemies, sap debuffing MP/RP/SP on enemies, feint attack being ranged-compatible and being part of the attack sequence (rather than that 1 sec of no attacks) or not needing combat expertise, hamstring being ranged-compatible and getting +[W], slicing blow dealing % of max health and much higher bleed stacks.

I like the armor feat additions as well, but could you change it to simply Armor Training, and let it apply to medium armor? They don't get evasion anyways.

The complete removal of MRR seems a little harsh. Perhaps the earlier suggestion by another poster of MRR bonuses being halved of PRR, with light armor receiving no MRR would be good.

The divine grace nerf has long been coming, and I approve, but do consider lowering the DC on some of the traps by 1 or 2.

In regards to warlocks, is the spellpower scaling of the light damage (from Spiritual retribution) changed?

I know this belongs to the lag thread, but I'd like to tack on a suggestion: code Doubleshot and other additional shot effects as a single packet, working kinda like a twf weapon hit when the projectile object hits

Thanks Sev, and the rest of the devs, for all your hard work. Nerfs are a hard pill to swallow, but its one we must take for the health of the game.

PS:Consider changing the base for manyshot from BAB to character levels, so that pure rangers don't get shafted in favour of tensers/divine might in epic levels

[redoubt]

Two thoughts:

We haven't heard that characters built to tank are having a hard time surviving. We will watch for that.

We buffed the power of many threat boosts recently. PM me if your tanks are taking the threat boosting abilities and are still losing agro to DPS. There may be a bug.

Sev~

Well, you have not implemented this yet. But I can say that tanking in Fire on Thunder Peaks on EH was enough to make my 28 vanguard paladin run out of self healing and need the assistance of a cleric. (I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I hope you realize that there are many places where current tanks do take pretty big hits and the change to heavy armor is going to make those hits higher.)

[JOTMON]

Under the proposal, Improved Critical would offer a +1 to the critical threat range of a quarterstaff. So, a regular quarterstaff that is 20/x2 would become 19-20/x2, and a named quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 would become 18-20.

Deathblow for Sireth type acrobats.. threat range get neutered
followed by quarterstaff builds TR'ing to Falchion builds.

[Game_Whino]

So what you're saying is that I picked a great time to cancel my VIP membership. (I kid)

Welp, at-least I got my warlock lives out of the way before the nerfage hit.