The Balance Change post

[Krelar]

What was the cooldown before the fix? Was it 30 seconds? This means that as long as you are being hit more than 50 times every 30 seconds they should be improved. Course you could always slot 12 of them to increase your chances.

Read the thread again. If it was changed as Steelstar indicated (have not logged in to check) then it has a 2% chance to proc and a 30 second cooldown now. One or the other seems fine to me, both seems a bit extreme.

[CThruTheEgo]

What was the cooldown before the fix? Was it 30 seconds? This means that as long as you are being hit more than 50 times every 30 seconds they should be improved. Course you could always slot 12 of them to increase your chances.

The 30 second cooldown has always been there, though never stated anywhere, hehe. And it was only recently stated by a dev (in the thread I linked) to be WAI. What was broken about them was the fact that they always triggered after 30 seconds. Now they only have a 2% chance to trigger once the 30 second cooldown is over. A 2% chance every 30 seconds is pretty weak imo, and not worth the jeweler's kit it will cost to unslot it when a later update inevitably invalidates one's current gear set. Sure, you could slot 12 of them and then have a 24% chance to proc a weak healing and AoE damage effect every 30 seconds, but that seems like an awfully big waste of slots imo.

[CThruTheEgo]

One or the other seems fine to me, both seems a bit extreme.

Agreed. They've been putting long cooldowns on gear effects lately and I don't understand why. It makes the effects practically useless.

[alancarp]

From today's release notes:

"Holy Sword's effect has been changed to: "While you are enchanted with Holy Sword, any weapons in your hands gain +1 to their Enhancement bonus and +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. This does not apply to shields, orbs, or Rune Arms." "

*Raises Hand*

I thought the point of changing Holy Sword was to reduce the power of Two-weapon fighters? So now sword-n-board DPS is reduced and the TWF's are the same as before.

What happened here?

[-D_Rock-]

So after testing manyshot at lvl 15 in Gianthold I have come to a conclusion that it is:

1. NOT manyshot anymore. cant even call it manyshot anymore like its predecessor in pnp *as the devs always try to stay true to pnp, or so they always claim* since you dont even shoot more arrows. ummmm..... wha??????

2. COMPLETELY useless in heroics now. my build is a split this current life and im feeling a double whammy. He is a two weapon fighting toon with manyshot as well for back up. twf was nerfed with this too, which in all honesty wasnt that bad while testing but am double nerfed regardless. I then decided to go ahead and use 'strongershot'. I will be calling it this now as i AM faithful to pnp and refuse to dishonor 3.5 by calling it manyshot anymore, since it is NOT manyshot by any means what so ever, unless your counting the doubleshot you get when you gear your brains out just for that. When i used 'stongershot' it literally did about 5-10 more points of damage per arrow. Now mind you, I know what you are 'trying' and failing to do and that is nerf it to where manyadrenaslayershot is not so ridiculous in epics. What you have 'done' though, is nerf it so hard that its no longer an ability that can even hold true to its name nor be even semi useful in heroic. by the time i swap to my bow and hit my strongershot and boosts etc, i could have just killed them with my blades. so why use strongershot????

3. Only ever use it in epic when i CAN adrenaline/slayer/strongershot. In nerfing it for the reason of this, you only made it useful for JUST that.

4. I will most likey never take this feat ever again with it being so useless, unless its on a pure ranger build that i will never play as i have been there done that, sort of thing. After playing for over 5 years, this is one thing that disturbs me most about all the changes that have ever happened. there has never, until this day, been a change that has ever made me want to 'not' use what should be 'a helpful feat'. Its bad enough that it has such high requirements. your going to need to account for dexterity and multiple feat requirements before you can even take the feat that gives you about 5 more points of dmg per shot. The most disturbing part is that it is assumed to be balanced now.

All of this boils down to 1 thing. Your trying to 'balance' a system that cannot be balanced. This has been an issue with 3.5 since it was started. I know all too well as i have been playing dnd for 20+ years now. Its not about total balance with 3.5, its about class roles and versatility. At this rate I can see this game steering towards all those joke dnd games where u get a pre built toon *you can be a female horc rogue, or a male dwarf sorcerer etc*. The one thing that makes dnd a shining contender in games is one simple thing, versatility and customization. By trying to balance things, you are only making it something it is not, 3.5 dnd. Manyshot is no longer manyshot, and im wondering what else is going to 'not' be what it is supposed to be.

A tip of advice, if you want to add more challenge then be a Dungeon Master. I used to dm 3.5 and it drove me insane how easy it was to make god toons for my players. And then the day came when I came to the realization; anything the players can do, the monsters can do too. You want to add challenge? Add some class levels to that simple kobold sittin in the corner. Little did the players know that the kobold over there is also a lvl 20 ranger who too, can manyshot. The players managed to kill him eventually, but were killed by his lvl 20 rogue friend sneaking around backstabbing them that they never seemed to notice. Must have had a REALLY good sneak skill. Or if you think that you cannot balance 3.5 like so many before you have tried then the balance is called something else in some languages: A new game. But leave 3.5 just that, 3.5.

This is my opinion. Many can feel free to disagree or agree with it but it will still be mine all the same and i will not waver from it. Thank you for reading

[unbongwah]

I thought the point of changing Holy Sword was to reduce the power of Two-weapon fighters? So now sword-n-board DPS is reduced and the TWF's are the same as before.

Bear in mind Holy Sword's +1 crit range bonus is no longer doubled by Improved Crit; so all TWF/SWF/THF pallies lost 5% crit chance. So if you're a TWF pally w/khopeshes, you went from 15-20/x4 to 16-20/x4. Somewhere in this thread, Sev said after testing they felt this was enough of a nerf to TWF pallies, so they re-enabled HS to offhand weapons (yay!).

[lyrecono]

Thanks for the insightful comments. I could quibble – that was my first ever post, so hardly “vocal” – but on the whole I recognise your points; there are divergent views on many of their issues which often come down to how one weighs one factor against another. I’ll just pick up on one point, which is regarding “party tactics”.

For me a tank is a party function, taking aggro. Classically, they need others to kill the monsters in timely fashion, presumably high-dps types. This is a symbiotic relationship. If the high-dps types can handle the aggro themselves (strong defences, good self-healing, whatever) they are self-sufficient and don’t need a tank, the symbiosis then breaks down and the tank feels useless. Conversely if the tank has good dps he/she doesn’t really need the high-dps help (maybe luxury rather than necessity). Recognising the two-way relationship, the high-dps type could (should?) help by, for example, letting the tank grab aggro before wading in and/or spreading their dps out or getting some threat reduction. From a personal perspective – and YMMV – my high-situational-dps-but-squishy assassin tries to do all of these as he really, really doesn’t want aggro so he does everything I can think of to help the tank keep it. Obviously his raw dps suffers a bit – but that’s the point.

Your comments focused on clerics - there are doubtless things that clerics and other casters can do to help – group tactics has many dimensions – but I did not have healbots in mind when I mentioned tactics. On the other hand, I do think that inter-dependency is key to group play and a distinctive feature of D&D. The alternative is to have a mob of self-sufficient individuals running around each doing their own thing, albeit perhaps in the same general vicinity. That’s OK too, and I recognise that some prefer to play that way, however I’d prefer that the extra effort required for coordination provided a return in superior overall performance (though not so much that you HAD to do it - I certainly don't want to force anyone down one particular path, but I do think you need some such benefit in order to provide a situation where more party-oriented and synergistic (vs solo) roles can thrive, or at least survive). That’s not quite harking back to the classical PnP party, though I can see it could look like that. Incidentally, another distinctive role feature in ancient PnP (I only played up to 2nd edition) was that aoe attacks were the exclusive province of caster – all weapons were exclusively single-target. The proliferation of aoe or multi-target weapon effects is one of many aspects that has diminished the role of offensive casters (plenty more to say on that but probably off-topic here).

well, my appologees for jumping you like that, welcome to the forum.
If the high-dps types can handle the aggro themselves (strong defences, good self-healing, whatever)
My pure barb worked hard for his gear, he took 2 twists for self healing (where anyone else needed 1 twist to gain healing) and a feat for platemail prof, those 2 twists could have been used for dps as could the feat (barbs don't get that many), it's a trade off
A melee paladin could be in those 2 destinies and have dps/tank stuff/more healing they already had without loosing twists, but they had less dpps then the barb (until they got boosted and then nerfed)
again, a trade off.

I shouldn't feel bad for the rogue because the wizard or bard took 2 levels of rogue and have all the twink gear and can do all the traps,
I won't feel guilty because my twinked (gear/build/playstyle) barb is better at tanking then a "tank"
I won't hold back because someone rolled up a "tank"

In my humble opinion, it's the mrr/prr curve that hurts the tank the most, the difference between a 240 and 220 prr is pathetic to begin with, wich took him feats and enh to get there,
if he builds for tanking he gains diminishing returns and might waste a party spot for someone who can actually take down a mob in a reasonable time.
DDo players aren't always pnp players, when the devs made the mobs have more hp and damage output, they switched to mostly ranged builds (yes the top notch cetus fighter build had manyshot etc build in to mitigate the but hurt), it was a black page in ddo history.
If they want people to "team up, they should hand craft better groups of mobs, they don't work well together, no shield wall with casters and ranged attacks behind them (and a surprise barb to kill the first one to jump over the shield wall), no counter spelling???, etc, mobs could make our lives so much harder by working together and yes, i agree, animals or plants don't always do that (though the druid behind the could, i advise you to read the "start of darkness" comic, it has an awesome example of that), butt a devil legion (witch implies an lawful army unit) should use tactics, they have the discipline, hierarchy and mental stats to pull it of.

DDo is build on 3,5 rules, adapted for video games mechanics and then adapted for 4th edition.
Cleave could already hit multiple targets, 2handers already could, having only a caster being able to do that wouldn't work in this game, we fight way more mobs then pnp.
When the game started people just played sorc and sleepwalked (or sleep-ran) all over the lower heroic quests spamming fireballs and drinking pots, tanks were obsolete even then.

[LordTigerDawn]

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

********************************

Very disappointed in this change. This redesigned ability states that it no longer requires a bow, but in game, it still does.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

The feat is WAI, giving an extra 3 to crit range, but the description is listing it with the +2 weapons. I'm just worried that if someone "fixes" this, they'll do it the wrong way and reduce the threat range bonus to 2. Gxb's are of course 3 crit-range weapons like the rapier and kukri.

[CThruTheEgo]

From today's release notes:

"Holy Sword's effect has been changed to: "While you are enchanted with Holy Sword, any weapons in your hands gain +1 to their Enhancement bonus and +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. This does not apply to shields, orbs, or Rune Arms." "

*Raises Hand*

I thought the point of changing Holy Sword was to reduce the power of Two-weapon fighters? So now sword-n-board DPS is reduced and the TWF's are the same as before.

What happened here?

Turbine Turbined its own Turbining of holy sword. I can't really say it any more clearly than that.

[Son_of_the_South]

Did they just change paralyzing arrows so they don't paralyze anymore??

"Paralyzing Arrows give 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack Speed on a failed Saving Throw."

Now they're just 'make you move kinda slower' arrows?

[gwonbush]

Did they just change paralyzing arrows so they don't paralyze anymore??

"Paralyzing Arrows give 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack Speed on a failed Saving Throw."

Now they're just 'make you move kinda slower' arrows?

Varg messed up when he sent the description to Cordovan. That's what happens on a successful save, they are still paralyzed on a failed save.

[standard_deviation]

I can't believe this patch went live already, you guys seriously didn't spend enough considering MRR impact interacted with Champion Wizards among low and medium durability characters. Enemies one-shotting the player isn't difficulty, it's just frustration. For something to be difficult there has to be a chance of winning :P


But that's not even my main complain at the moment. In the Improved Critical revision, you treated the following three combat types the same:
Unarmed -- default 20 x2, Improved Crit: +1 threat range
Wild Shape (Dire Bear) -- default 20 x3, Improved Crit: +1 threat range
Wild Shape (Winter Wolf) -- default 19-20 x3, Improved Crit: +1 threat range

Winter Wolf is getting 18-20 x3 with Improved Crit, but this should be 17-20 x3. Please consider revising this like you did with the Swashbuckler crit-leveling.

[Son_of_the_South]

Varg messed up when he sent the description to Cordovan. That's what happens on a successful save, they are still paralyzed on a failed save.

Thanks for the update. Figured it must have been a successful save or we would have heard more about it.

[Grailhawk]

Unarmed -- default 20 x2, Improved Crit: +1 threat range
Wild Shape (Dire Bear) -- default 20 x3, Improved Crit: +1 threat range
Wild Shape (Winter Wolf) -- default 19-20 x3, Improved Crit: +1 threat range

Honestly they need to rework unarmed from scratch and they need to do it soon. The Improved Critical changes have really made this a much more important issue then it was in the past.

Unarmed is broken it needs fixing ASAP.

[alancarp]

I can't believe this patch went live already, you guys seriously didn't spend enough considering MRR impact interacted with Champion Wizards among low and medium durability characters. Enemies one-shotting the player isn't difficulty, it's just frustration. For something to be difficult there has to be a chance of winning :P ...

As I'm running through things tonight, I'm noticing the reduction in melee power, and that's requiring a bit longer to kill red names, but the big deal is the MRR reduction. I didn't realize that it would be so noticeable on my lvl 28 S&B Pally (I think it's about a 25% reduction). Kinda feels like I'm using armor that's 4-6 levels lower in quality now, which is certainly making me use up Lay on Hands at a much faster rate (and that's on Epic Norm quests). Not going to be volunteering to tank any raid dragons any time soon, that's for sure.

[Arkai]

Great Crossbow is indeed 18-20 and should have been included in the +3 group for Improved Critical. That's a bug that we will correct, though you might not see the fix in the first Lamannia.

Sev~

I noticed this on the live server tonight, although it isn't listed on the official known issues. I guess It will be catched in the next update.

[Holleyz]

Can I please have the developer/ game designers name that screwed up my aa ranger? To you man: Eat my arrows and a HUGE middle finger to you for screwing up manyshots.

[donblas]

I can't believe this patch went live already, you guys seriously didn't spend enough considering MRR impact interacted with Champion Wizards among low and medium durability characters. Enemies one-shotting the player isn't difficulty, it's just frustration. For something to be difficult there has to be a chance of winning :P


.

I remember when MotU came out with its Ac changes and introducing PRR etc to "reduce granularity", ie have smoother damage incoming from enemy rather than sudden bursts of huge damage.

Obviously the current devs threw that concept out of the window,.

Can we just get some consistency please? Can each new crew of devs stop throwing out the old stuff? Make up your mind - smooth inputs of damage or granular ones, stop abandoning crafting systems and bringing in new ones, etc, etc, etc.

[Kompera_Oberon]

From today's release notes:

"Holy Sword's effect has been changed to: "While you are enchanted with Holy Sword, any weapons in your hands gain +1 to their Enhancement bonus and +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. This does not apply to shields, orbs, or Rune Arms." "

*Raises Hand*

I thought the point of changing Holy Sword was to reduce the power of Two-weapon fighters? So now sword-n-board DPS is reduced and the TWF's are the same as before.

What happened here?

Shields were "overperforming" and required a much needed nerf in order to keep the player base from running only S&B builds. Obviously no one in their right mind runs as THF or TWF, so something needed to be done!

</sarcasm>

Bear in mind Holy Sword's +1 crit range bonus is no longer doubled by Improved Crit; so all TWF/SWF/THF pallies lost 5% crit chance. So if you're a TWF pally w/khopeshes, you went from 15-20/x4 to 16-20/x4. Somewhere in this thread, Sev said after testing they felt this was enough of a nerf to TWF pallies, so they re-enabled HS to offhand weapons (yay!).

And if you were running S&B with a Kopesh you also went from 15-20/x4 to 16-20/x4. So why not allow Holy Sword to work with shields?