The Balance Change post

[Severlin]

What is the point of the change then? Why even nerf IC if you are going to improve the weapons so that they aren't nerfed?
You are just wasting programming time when you could have done nothing....

Enhancements aren't doubled, nor are future loot weapons.

Sev~

[slarden]

Having a 360 degree AoE ability out damage a cone really isn't balanced. The Warlock using the cone will have to constantly be moving to try to keep monsters lined up and even then will miss some. The point blank AoEs that the Enlighten Spirit uses hit all creature around them; it is much easier to hit more enemies with those.

The cone is the most effective by design; it requires the most positioning to line up well.

Sev~

Then please give the enlightened spirit SLAs a multi-select option.

Cone: 130% scaling to spellpower + light damage
360 AOE: 100% scaling to spellpower + light damage

I find the 360 AOE a burden not a benefit. I have to position myself in the middle of enemies rather than in front/behind to make good use of it.

As it stands the SLAs are worse than base eldritch damage with the cone. What's the point of having an SLA that does less damage than the base eldritch blast attack.

[sjbb87]

Thoughts on named weapons and threat range:

~ We definitely do not, going forward, want Improved Critical to affect any bonuses to threat range for named weapons.

~ We are also sensitive to players who don't want to see existing weapon lose relative power.

We will be increasing the threat range of the following named weapons. I am including the new threat range which is increased to compensate for the loss of improved critical. Keep in mind that this will be on top of the threat range Improved Critical adds for weapon type, so with that feat Epic Sword of Shadows, as an example, would have a threat range of 6 and become 15-20.

I apologize for the short hand in listing the threat range - that number represents the base range of the weapon and should be increased enough to match the previous range with Improved Critical. As a side effect this will make some weapons more powerful if your character does not have Improved Critical.

Named Item: Base Threat Range

Epic Sword of Shadows: 4
Sireth: 5
Bone Crusher: 3
Epic Bone Crusher: 5
Pinion: 3
Mutineer's Blade: 5
Deathnip: 3
Tiefling Assassin's Blade: 4
Whirlwind: 4
Rebellion: 4
Drow Bastard Sword, Dagger, Khopesh, Longsword, and Shortsword: 4
Drow Waraxe, Light Mace, Warhammer, Great Axe, Maul and Quarterstaff: 3.
Drow Rapier and Scimitar: 5
Carnifex: 3
Silver Longbow: 3
Elemental Bloom (and Epic): 3
Oathblade: 4
Sickle of Sypheros: 3
Snowstar: 5
Theurgic Stave: 3
Ratcatcher: 4
Nightforge avanger blade and stiletto: 4
Nightforge spike: 5
Treason: 4
Breeze: 3
Unwavering Ardency: 3
Coronation: 3
Phospor: 5
Razorend: 4
Epic Zephyr: 4
Epic Thornlord: 3
Epic Collapsible Shortbow: 3
Epic Mirage: 5
Epic Bow of the Elements: 3
Epic Staff of Nat Gann: 3
Bow of Sinew: 3
Cutthroat's Smallblade (top heroic weapon) and Epic Cutthroat's Smallblade: 4
Luminous truth and Epic Luminous Truth: 3
Chieftain's Spear: 3
Forester's Brush Hook: 3
Forgotten Light: 3
Fellblade: 4
Sapphire Sting and Epic: 3
Death's Touch: 3
Devourer's Reaping: 3
Tharkuul's Bane: 3
Widowblight: 3
Mornh, Hammer of the Mountains: 3
Staff of the Seer: 3
Braisingstar: 3
Fossil: 3
Star of Irian: 3
Bonesplitter: 3
Shining Devastation: 3

(I believe we have all named items with a base threat range higher than their weapon type with this list.)

Sev~

Sireth, Spear of the Sky?

[Krelar]

Sireth, Spear of the Sky?

It was the second one on the list.

[FestusHood]

What is the point of the change then? Why even nerf IC if you are going to improve the weapons so that they aren't nerfed?
You are just wasting programming time when you could have done nothing....

Apparently this was easier than changing all the enhancements to not stack with ic. I can see both sides of it. Many of the special weapons which would be affected have been around since before they were thought to be overpowered. Interesting that thunderforged still beats all these special weapons, even though none of them have improved crit profiles. Probably shouldn't use mortal feat weapons for dps testing, that just has to skew the results tremendously, and even more so as the hit points on the target goes up.

[sjbb87]

Vanguards do not come close to out dpsing TWF or THF builds. The only way you could justify that argument is in situations where a vanguard can survive and keep swinging when THF or TWF can not. But thats not a good reason to nerf S&B, thats the very reason to go S&B over the other styles.

This....

On quest EE Vanguards are the kings, almost immortal.
He can easily jump into the middle of the mob and kill all with no problem.

I think that developers can add one more enhancement that add +1 critical and range in tier 5 of vanguard, nor that of any penalty, for example lose the effect of one of these:
Divine Grace
AC from the sheld
PRR from shield

a trade of defensive ability for an offensive

Hi,

It's responses like this, set in contrast with your very late and short testing period on Lammania, which is why I think the development team has lost a lot of credibility with these recent changes. Don't even bother pretending that player testing is important to you when you give us so little time on Lammania to do that testing.

You should also be able to model the results of your changes mathematically, preferably before you even consider making a change. If you aren't able to do that in a way with good predictive power of how builds perform in game, something is seriously wrong.

At this point I'm not terribly concerned about communication breaking down, because I think the state of it now is already bordering on useless. You have shown us apart from a couple of minor cases, that you'll do pretty much what you want to do, and that is a very unfortunate situation for us when it's being done by a team with a very imperfect understanding of how the game works and how we play it.

You and your team have simply ignored large and important parts of the discussions of some of these changes, misrepresented the degree of their severity, ignored solutions provided by the community which are better than the ones you came up with yourselves, and are now backtracking on others.

I'll say it again; this is a farce.

Thanks.

You guys have to know that they are not only working on it ...
Surely these modification to the balance is just one of the things they are worrying ....
They are already working to update 29 to level 30, new feats, quests ...
So we need to make a branstorm and show the proposals, while analyzed they work on other projects.
There's a lot going on at once, so the Lamannia is the test server.

[sjbb87]

It was the second one on the list.

ops... not found Spear of the Sky

lol

[FestusHood]

Pinion made the list and I don't see too much of a difference when I look closely at these 2 weapons side by side:



How about adding Seeker +10 to the Needle?

Please (you'll never know unless you ask ?

Pinion has an expanded crit range. Needle has an extra multiplier. This fix is to restore the expanded crit ranges of those weapons that have them. Crit multiplier is unaffected.

[redoubt]

Pinion made the list and I don't see too much of a difference when I look closely at these 2 weapons side by side:

How about adding Seeker +10 to the Needle?

Please (you'll never know unless you ask ?

If you are talking about the IC topic, the repeaters are native 19-20 and bows are native 20. So pinion is on the list because it is not normal for a bow.

[redoubt]

What is the point of the change then? Why even nerf IC if you are going to improve the weapons so that they aren't nerfed?
You are just wasting programming time when you could have done nothing....

I think it is a weird way to do it, but it actually works out when you look closely. The weapons that are being modified have crit ranges larger than the basic version of that weapon type. As such the IC feat is not doubling the weapons crit range, but only adding an amount equal to the basic weapon crit range. With the listed change, those weapons + IC (no other crit mods) will be equal to the pre-change weapon + IC.

So what is the change you ask?

All the other crit modifiers will now no longer be doubled by the IC feat. So for characters with only the IC feat and no other mods, the crit ranges for weapons will be unchanged. For characters with other crit range mods, there will be a reduction in overall crit range.

Does that help?

[Livmo]

Pinion has an expanded crit range. Needle has an extra multiplier. This fix is to restore the expanded crit ranges of those weapons that have them. Crit multiplier is unaffected.

If you are talking about the IC topic, the repeaters are native 19-20 and bows are native 20. So pinion is on the list because it is not normal for a bow.

I have Pinion Envy!

(always been jelouse of that +10 Seeker and felt Needle needs, or should wants that. Don't listen to me, it's the weapon talking....add seeker +10 to the needle...needle +10 seekeer...)

I originally asked for the x3 to be x5 on xbow.

[Standal]

Thoughts on named weapons and threat range:

~ We definitely do not, going forward, want Improved Critical to affect any bonuses to threat range for named weapons.

Sev~

I love the changes that you made to the part I snipped out, but I really want to comment on what I left. If you aren't going to expand critical threat range or multiplier on any named weapons, please never make another named great club, great sword, long sword, or club again unless you just pump the W and effects out the roof. No one will use them. Please focus your efforts on weapons that have the proper crit range.

[SirValentine]

We will be increasing the threat range of the following named weapons.

So the weapons that ALREADY have better-than-normal crit range are now getting even bigger crit range? You're BUFFING crit range on the very weapons where it was the biggest problem to start with?

Color me confused on what this balance pass is supposed to be about.

[FifthTime]

So the weapons that ALREADY have better-than-normal crit range are now getting even bigger crit range? You're BUFFING crit range on the very weapons where it was the biggest problem to start with?

Color me confused on what this balance pass is supposed to be about.

This ^

It seems like the DDO Dev team should be medicated for ADD/ADHD. They can't seem to stay focused on anything for more then a single update, sometimes not even that long.

[cdarkmoon]

Yeah, it kind of is.

If we change Holy Sword to work with shield then Vanguard will out DPS two handed and two weapon builds. Why would anyone put down the shield to use the other styles?

(The other thing to consider is this: Vanguard for Paladin and Vanguard for Fighter need to also be balanced. If we found that Vanguard was still behind we'd boost that tree directly rather than putting the DPS into the Paladin specific Holy Sword.)

Sev~


I disagree. You know I had this reply pretyped on word,but after proofing it I relised it is wasted time. You have not played a Vangard Pally nor do you have any numbers to back up your statment. Dont say its better than a fighter this or a Fighter that. IT IS atm. Prety much any pure 20 anything is better than a 20 fighter. This is pure foolishness, even with xxx people disagreeing with this stament of op shields smashers you hold your corse. While many peeps on here are willing to do YOUR job for you and provide testing numbers and relistic testing results. I have done the testing I have played and seen the results now you can do the same. After all what would i play a shield weilding vangard pally when i can swich to a non pure 15/5 and perform much better in all ways.

[jakeelala]

This ^

It seems like the DDO Dev team should be medicated for ADD/ADHD. They can't seem to stay focused on anything for more then a single update, sometimes not even that long.

The problem is actually not these weapons, in most cases, at all.

The problem is these crit ranges and how they interact with things like SWB and Exploit Weakness for example. Exploit weakness actually gave +2 to crit threat with every hit before, now it should only give +1. This is why they are changing crit profiles and the feat IC itself.

With throwers, a pure Monk (or Bard with Swashbuckler) could get 5-20 Crit range with certain throwing weapons.

[karatemack]

I remember when the ranged pass was being discussed and people kept asking (annoying) the DEVs to include additional crit range. This, unfortunately, seems to be the punitive response. This is the reward for player contribution.

[Vyrzain]

.......................

Named Item: Base Threat Range

Epic Sword of Shadows: 4
Sireth: 5
Bone Crusher: 3
Epic Bone Crusher: 5
Pinion: 3
Mutineer's Blade: 5
Deathnip: 3
Tiefling Assassin's Blade: 4
Whirlwind: 4
Rebellion: 4
Drow Bastard Sword, Dagger, Khopesh, Longsword, and Shortsword: 4
Drow Waraxe, Light Mace, Warhammer, Great Axe, Maul and Quarterstaff: 3.
Drow Rapier and Scimitar: 5
Carnifex: 3
Silver Longbow: 3
Elemental Bloom (and Epic): 3
Oathblade: 4
Sickle of Sypheros: 3
Snowstar: 5
Theurgic Stave: 3
Ratcatcher: 4
Nightforge avanger blade and stiletto: 4
Nightforge spike: 5
Treason: 4
Breeze: 3
Unwavering Ardency: 3
Coronation: 3
Phospor: 5
Razorend: 4
Epic Zephyr: 4
Epic Thornlord: 3
Epic Collapsible Shortbow: 3
Epic Mirage: 5
Epic Bow of the Elements: 3
Epic Staff of Nat Gann: 3
Bow of Sinew: 3
Cutthroat's Smallblade (top heroic weapon) and Epic Cutthroat's Smallblade: 4
Luminous truth and Epic Luminous Truth: 3
Chieftain's Spear: 3
Forester's Brush Hook: 3
Forgotten Light: 3
Fellblade: 4
Sapphire Sting and Epic: 3
Death's Touch: 3
Devourer's Reaping: 3
Tharkuul's Bane: 3
Widowblight: 3
Mornh, Hammer of the Mountains: 3
Staff of the Seer: 3
Braisingstar: 3
Fossil: 3
Star of Irian: 3
Bonesplitter: 3
Shining Devastation: 3

(I believe we have all named items with a base threat range higher than their weapon type with this list.)

Sev~

Epic Souleater not making the list?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Souleater

[FifthTime]

I think it is a weird way to do it, but it actually works out when you look closely. The weapons that are being modified have crit ranges larger than the basic version of that weapon type. As such the IC feat is not doubling the weapons crit range, but only adding an amount equal to the basic weapon crit range. With the listed change, those weapons + IC (no other crit mods) will be equal to the pre-change weapon + IC.

So what is the change you ask?

All the other crit modifiers will now no longer be doubled by the IC feat. So for characters with only the IC feat and no other mods, the crit ranges for weapons will be unchanged. For characters with other crit range mods, there will be a reduction in overall crit range.

Does that help?

That only tells me that this "re-balance" doesn't go nearly far enough to actually achieve anything close to balance.

Melee will still be far superior to caster classes.

[Kieriyn]

Some follow up news from the Lamannia thread:

~ Two Weapon Fighting Paladins are slightly behind where we want them in our Lamannia tests and in the player testing we've seen. We plan to boost them by allowing Holy Sword to work with non-shield off hand attacks. With the Improved Critical bug fixed this extra off hand damage will no longer increase the DPS of those builds too far.

Sev~

It seems like nerfs are being made to cross cutting concerns such as PRR, TWF, etc to compensate for overpowered abilities derived from previous balance passes. Is this really the direction to take to correct problems with specific builds?

Consider the much maligned Fighter, for example. The fighter specific feats are a step in the right direction, but you will still need to sacrifice elsewhere in a class that you already admitted kind of makes you throw your hands up and say, "Oi". And that's just to get back to where you were. Pitching them as special improvements just for fighters is just a nice way of saying that you can give up even more to stay the same, and ignores the feat requirements of the only DPS chain that fighter gets- Kensei (Since most Vanguards will already be Paladins). I doubt that DPS from other classes will fall enough to make this make fighter seem attractive. I suppose they can get in line behind monks for an eventual pass.