The Balance Change post

[redoubt]

Sigh.....someone who is on Lamma please do the tests for Sev & the Devs (new band name?).

I have played both in the past year (Pally/Ranger 15/5 (pre-ranger pass) then some warlock to get completionist back - now Pure Pally)- nearly identical gear - I had tried vangaurd before but it was while rolling some ETRs and it was a messy 15/3/2 Pal/Rng/Fi build that didn't really synergize at all for Vanguard. So I wanted to try a pure Vanguard. There are no real splashes that make a Vanguard build better (IMO) so I think my starting point for a comparison is fair.....

Vanguard is noticeably less DPS than TWF pally (pre ranger pass as well so significantly behind the currently available version) by a fair margin (I'd say 20% or more and this is with HS working)- the shield bash proc rate with the cooldown is not fast enough to equate to offhand attacks and I would much rather have a T3 TF in my offhand vs. shield for pure DPS. I haven't checked recently but I also don't think you get stat mod to the damage. That said you have much higher durability (AC/PRR/MRR of Towershield) I think that is arguably fair for 10-20% DPS shortfall depending on the design goal but I don't think HS needs to be nerfed for shields.

That said I can't argue it being a big factor either way since you are only buffing a shield and that means the nerf is losing (or keeping) for 1W (3d10-Ultimatum) and 5% crit range 5% damage on one swing per second - so maybe a hundred DPS all in....not sure it's worth fighting over but that also implies it's not likely worth making the change for either.

I worry some that people are seeing players with max'd past lives running something like a vanguard and leading the pack and coming to the conclusion that paladin vanguards do too much dps as a result. For example, my current vanguard has:
3xfighter granting +3 attack and +3 to my stunning shield.
3xmonk +3 damage
2xpali +10% hamp
3xranger 6% elemental (and 6/6 if I ever use a bow)
2xrogue 2% dodge (don't need an item in heavy plate)
3xPDK +9prr
6xDivine sphere +18prr
3xArcane sphere: all weapons gain +3 enhancement
3xMartial sphere: 9% doublestrike
Epic completionist (get a 4th twist)

And a bunch of others that help in other ways, but less directly on combat.

I pug a lot and this character runs against a lot of builds with far less development time. Of course it will look better and because I pug a lot it is seen by a lot of players. By contrast, guild only players run in a smaller circle that is likely filled with more equitable character levels.

Just something to keep in mind.

[edana]

Thoughts on named weapons and threat range:

~ We definitely do not, going forward, want Improved Critical to affect any bonuses to threat range for named weapons.

~ We are also sensitive to players who don't want to see existing weapon lose relative power.

We will be increasing the threat range of the following named weapons. I am including the new threat range which is increased to compensate for the loss of improved critical. Keep in mind that this will be on top of the threat range Improved Critical adds for weapon type, so with that feat Epic Sword of Shadows, as an example, would have a threat range of 6 and become 15-20.

I apologize for the short hand in listing the threat range - that number represents the base range of the weapon and should be increased enough to match the previous range with Improved Critical. As a side effect this will make some weapons more powerful if your character does not have Improved Critical.

Named Item: Base Threat Range

Epic Sword of Shadows: 4
Sireth: 5
Bone Crusher: 3
Epic Bone Crusher: 5
Pinion: 3
Mutineer's Blade: 5
Deathnip: 3
Tiefling Assassin's Blade: 4
Whirlwind: 4
Rebellion: 4
Drow Bastard Sword, Dagger, Khopesh, Longsword, and Shortsword: 4
Drow Waraxe, Light Mace, Warhammer, Great Axe, Maul and Quarterstaff: 3.
Drow Rapier and Scimitar: 5
Carnifex: 3
Silver Longbow: 3
Elemental Bloom (and Epic): 3
Oathblade: 4
Sickle of Sypheros: 3
Snowstar: 5
Theurgic Stave: 3
Ratcatcher: 4
Nightforge avanger blade and stiletto: 4
Nightforge spike: 5
Treason: 4
Breeze: 3
Unwavering Ardency: 3
Coronation: 3
Phospor: 5
Razorend: 4
Epic Zephyr: 4
Epic Thornlord: 3
Epic Collapsible Shortbow: 3
Epic Mirage: 5
Epic Bow of the Elements: 3
Epic Staff of Nat Gann: 3
Bow of Sinew: 3
Cutthroat's Smallblade (top heroic weapon) and Epic Cutthroat's Smallblade: 4
Luminous truth and Epic Luminous Truth: 3
Chieftain's Spear: 3
Forester's Brush Hook: 3
Forgotten Light: 3
Fellblade: 4

(I believe we have all named items with a base threat range higher than their weapon type with this list.)

Sev~

Missing First Blood/Epic First Blood?

[Robai]

Thoughts on named weapons and threat range:

~ We definitely do not, going forward, want Improved Critical to affect any bonuses to threat range for named weapons.

~ We are also sensitive to players who don't want to see existing weapon lose relative power.

We will be increasing the threat range of the following named weapons. I am including the new threat range which is increased to compensate for the loss of improved critical. Keep in mind that this will be on top of the threat range Improved Critical adds for weapon type, so with that feat Epic Sword of Shadows, as an example, would have a threat range of 6 and become 15-20.

I apologize for the short hand in listing the threat range - that number represents the base range of the weapon and should be increased enough to match the previous range with Improved Critical. As a side effect this will make some weapons more powerful if your character does not have Improved Critical.

....

(I believe we have all named items with a base threat range higher than their weapon type with this list.)

Sev~

Thanks! Much appreciated!

Finally I can go to sleep

[Sgt_Hart]

(I believe we have all named items with a base threat range higher than their weapon type with this list.)

Sev~

http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range#Named_weapons

It'll help Sev.

[Severlin]

No Needle?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Needle,_Quill-slinger

Needling for the Needle to be added to stack.

All repeating crossbows have a 19-20 already. This weapon doesn't have an increased range and Improved Critical will add +2.

Sev~

[Theolin]

Thoughts on named weapons and threat range:

...

(I believe we have all named items with a base threat range higher than their weapon type with this list.)

Sev~

I think 'Shadow Star' has an unusual crit range

[Saekee]

I think 'Shadow Star' has an unusual crit range

It is bugged. It is supposed to have the normal threat range plus keen. Instead, it is the same as snow star as far as I can tell, but with keen.

[Saekee]

I apologize for the short hand in listing the threat range - that number represents the base range of the weapon and should be increased enough to match the previous range with Improved Critical. As a side effect this will make some weapons more powerful if your character does not have Improved Critical.
Sev~

?
So if it has keen and you have improved critical, it comes out less? (Like Oathblades and IC: Slashing would make it just 17-20 and mess up its range?)

[lLockehart]

Oh! that was really thoughtful of you guys, I'd imagine it would take too much effort to single out all the weapons but It's really great for all players out there using alternative builds/playstyles (or just the ones that heavily invested for an Epic SoS) thanks for listening. The wiki list is super well organized and should help tons!

In regards to Paladins and holy shields... I'm not very proficient on this matter, only played one vanguard paladin, right after I Etr'ed my THF one, and I didn't outdps my previous life, But! I was on par with it, (I was using the madstone aegis also, so I really tried hard) still, Vanguard should be a mix between Dps and tankieness, It's still going to dish out a lot of damage, I think this change impacts most importantly the Fighter, as of now, It's a no brainer to go Paladin, and that just destroys the uniqueness of playing a Fighter Vanguard, with the change, you actually have to decide, Do I go for a Str build/cc based fighter? or a supportive/more tanky pally that can double proc smites? choices are good and now, both sides are viable. I think it's better, but that's just my very personal opinion, it's been long since I've played a vanguard.

[Severlin]

Missing First Blood/Epic First Blood?

Base range is 19-20 as normal.

Sev~

[Robai]

?
So if it has keen and you have improved critical, it comes out less? (Like Oathblades and IC: Slashing would make it just 17-20 and mess up its range?)

As Sev said:

Named Item: Base Threat Range

Oathblade: 4

So, 17-20 is base.
It has Keen and it's a Long Sword, so +2 to range and thus it will be 15-20 (the same as before).
IC feat don't stack with Keen, so will still be 15-20 with IC.

With +1 bonus (from Enhancements, ED, Holy Sword, etc) it will be: 14-20 (so no longer doubled, i.e. no longer 13-20)

[zeonardo]

Shields really do so much damage that they tip the DPS balance in favor of Vanguards significantly?

I'm really sorry, Sev, but I'm just not seeing it.

It that were true, I'd be seeing boatloads of Vanguards running around Stormreach and Eveningstar but guess what? I'm not.

S&B builds just aren't sexy even with the current version of Holy Sword. My guess (and it's only a guess) is after the Holy Sword change in 28.1, I'll see even fewer Vanguards than I do now.

Sorry, but that's what I've seen and those are my feelings.

This.

I simply can't understand what kind of version of DDO the devs have been playing.
It's such a niche build!
Warlocks cleaving, bards freezing, swashbucklers... hum...swashing the buckle..., broken wolf dps anihilating, monkchers just... sigh
And they had to nerf the poor pali? Poor guys barely saw the light of day after a game-long winter...

It's just sad.

[Severlin]

?
So if it has keen and you have improved critical, it comes out less? (Like Oathblades and IC: Slashing would make it just 17-20 and mess up its range?)

Keen has never stacked with Improved Critical.

Sev~

[Livmo]

All repeating crossbows have a 19-20 already. This weapon doesn't have an increased range and Improved Critical will add +2.

Sev~

Pinion made the list and I don't see too much of a difference when I look closely at these 2 weapons side by side:



How about adding Seeker +10 to the Needle?

Please (you'll never know unless you ask ?

[Des0xyn]

Hey there all, a little late to the party, just some thoughts:

1) We get the nerf to divine grace, although what doesn't change for us is that epic traps/spells still have a dc of 70+ saves. Without divine grace, evasion dex to dmg builds is one way (doesn't stop will saves spells though). The other is MRR (heavy armor caster with skyvault). Or you can just die and be raised. Repeatedly.

Taking a step back, the reasons for players going either extremes is that, we enjoy options to be survivable. Currently, there are options to further increase saves:

- Great fortitude (+2 fort)
- Iron Will (+2 will)
- Lightning reflex (+2 reflex)
- Luck of heroes (+1 all saves)
- Resist Poison (+4 poison)
- Snake blood (+1 reflex, +2 poison)

and

- Insightful reflex (+ int mod to reflex)
- Force of personality (+ cha mod to will)

Of these 8 feats, i dare say, the only 2 worth taking are insightful reflex and force of personality. You can go through the builds on forums, it is so rare that anyone even considers taking the other feats.

We only have 7heroic (8human) + 3epic feats, and it just isn't worth investing those precious feats towards turning a +40 save to +41 if both saves are going to fail at epics. Both insightful reflex, and force of personality can make a decent difference if built for it (+10 to 15 to saves), and thats the impact that divine grace/paladin 2 splashes did too.

Players can only push saves so high in hope to be decent at epics. Even at maxed past lives (+3 rogue, +3bard etc), (divine sphere brace +3), enh, it is hard for some builds to meet the epic saves to get half damage or a chance not to be held helpless.

One consideration during this balance shift, could be working to have these feats scale into epics too. Front loading the feats will make them too powerful at epics such as (I would definitely take a +5 saves at heroics). A coding change could be to scale them like that of the epic destiny past lives, a basic +2 at lvl 10, and increases with every 5 or 10 levels.

This will give us more viable options to tweak builds, to sacrifice feats/dps for survivability.


The other consideration is the 4 mutually excluding feats/stances, combat expertise, power attack, precision and resilience. Most builds can only afford to choose 1 (it is a luxury to spend on a feat that you will only use situationally. Some of the others have mentioned, but the 4 feats aren't equal at the perks they could possibly give:

Power attack (the choice for melee aoe dps):
- -5 to attack roll (irrelevant in today's gameplay)
- +5 dmg (+10 thf)
- Opens cleave
- Open g cleave
- Required for momentum swing twist/lay waste
- Opens imp. power attack +0.5[w]
- enh trees (eg: wf, barb) that enhance it

Precision (the choice if melees have mortal fear, thus disregarding aoe dps and only for boss takedown. Also for ranged, non-cleaving monks, stun/helpless or sneak attack builds):
- bypass 25% fort
- 5% to hit (irrelevant in today's gameplay)

Combat expertise (possible choice for throwers)
- -5 to attack roll (irrelevant in today's gameplay)
- +10% armor
- 3 x spell cooldown
- Opens whirlwind attack (the double spin and pause break in animation, makes it much longer than a double cleave and stops most players from taking it. Mostly only unarmed monks and druids take this)
- Opens imp. combat expertise +20 prr

Resilience
- -5 to attack roll (irrelevant in today's gameplay)
- +4 saves
- 3 x spell cooldown


Given the reduction in PRR and MRR, one option for balance would be to improve upon the 4 choices we have here. Given the current lack of perks for combat expertise and especially resilience, why not just remove the 3 x spell cooldown?

Most melee builds these days even, do have some spells at least from epic destinies/twists. The other group I would see taking it would be those unaffected by the melee perks of power attack and the fort bypass perks of precision, mainly support and casters. This would give them an option besides heavy armor. The current 3 x spell cooldown is just too much of a cost for casters.

Also, maybe for future enh trees, epic destinies, consideration could be given to resilience too, or that it scales into epics. So that we have a viable option to saves too.

7heroic + 3 epic feats is already a limitation on most builds, commonly the breakdown (take a look at most forum builds) is already as such:

Melees:
- 3 x fighting style (swf, thf, twf)
- Improved critical
- 1 of the 4 stances (usually power attack or precision)
- 2 free feats (or cleave/ gcleave)

- Overwhelming crit
- 2 free feats (possibly 1 for saves, ie insightful reflex, or heals, ie quicken/empower heal and blinding speed)

Ranged:
- pbs
- precision
- Improved critical
- rapid shot
- precise shot
- improved precise shot
- 1 free feat

- Overwhelming crit
- Combat archery
- 1 free feat (usually blinding speed)


Caster:
- Maximise
- Quicken
- Enlarge
- Heigthen (dc caster) / Empower (sla caster)
- 3 free feats (Spell pen/focus for dc caster, 2 x Mental toughness for sla dmg casters, extend for longer displacement)

- Epic mental toughness, spell pen/focus
- Ruin
- Great ability

Most builds are just a shuffle around those feats. It is true that rangers/fighters/monks/wizards/artificers have some lee-way to take more feats, but most of the time these feats are also fully used to complete the class build, rather than a luxury to take a situational feat/manyshot/watchful eye/epic dr. Even fighters now will be squeezed tight since their extra feats are mostly going towards the new PRR/MRR and tactics feats. Completionists even have to spend an extra feat to fit it in.

So yes, buffing these more obsolete save feats, won't really result in the player base shoring up on them. But it will give an option to builds to min-max and give up maybe 1 cleave for more decent saves (instead of the marginal increase of +2 or +4 now)

[maddong]

Thoughts on named weapons and threat range:

~ We definitely do not, going forward, want Improved Critical to affect any bonuses to threat range for named weapons.

~ We are also sensitive to players who don't want to see existing weapon lose relative power.

We will be increasing the threat range of the following named weapons. I am including the new threat range which is increased to compensate for the loss of improved critical. Keep in mind that this will be on top of the threat range Improved Critical adds for weapon type, so with that feat Epic Sword of Shadows, as an example, would have a threat range of 6 and become 15-20.

I apologize for the short hand in listing the threat range - that number represents the base range of the weapon and should be increased enough to match the previous range with Improved Critical. As a side effect this will make some weapons more powerful if your character does not have Improved Critical.

Named Item: Base Threat Range

Epic Sword of Shadows: 4
.........
Shining Devastation: 3

(I believe we have all named items with a base threat range higher than their weapon type with this list.)

Sev~

What is the point of the change then? Why even nerf IC if you are going to improve the weapons so that they aren't nerfed?
You are just wasting programming time when you could have done nothing....

[Tlorrd]

What is the point of the change then? Why even nerf IC if you are going to improve the weapons so that they aren't nerfed?
You are just wasting programming time when you could have done nothing....

Exactly

[Propane]

Hello!

Below is some information about a test I just finished up on one of my alts.
This isn't my front line character, but does have decent gear. Working on gaining fate points, so not maximized by any stretch.

Character

1st life dwarf
12FT/6pally/2Rogue Epic 27
Medium Armor - White Dragon Scale T1
98 PRR / 69 MRR / Dodge 12 Live
94 PRR / 49 MRR / Dodge 12 Lammania
Dual Thunder Forged D-axe - Wrath of Flame & 1st Burns
Unyielding Sentinel 4
Divine Might + Power Surge at start of fight -->63 STR (not refreshed during)
53 Melee Power Live / 47 Melee Power Lammania





Cabal for One - Epic Hard - Gardak Bruntsmash Beatdown
Holding attack button down - moving some to keep in melee ranged

Live (Oct 16th Friday evening)

Time Notes
Sec
41 3 Coccon
36 1 Coccon
40 3 Coccon
39 2 Coccon

Ave 39 sec and ~ 2 Coccon

Lammania (Oct 19 Monday evening)

Time Notes
Sec
42 2 Coccon
38 2 Coccon
48 2 Coccon
43 2 Coccon

Ave ~ 43 sec and ~ 2 Coccon

(sorry can't get screen shots to load)

[Propane]

Exactly

Starts with a clean slate moving forward for new weapons...

[Robai]

What is the point of the change then? Why even nerf IC if you are going to improve the weapons so that they aren't nerfed?
You are just wasting programming time when you could have done nothing....

The crit range for ALL weapons will be nerfed now if you have bonuses to crit range from Enhancements, Epic Destinies, Holy sword, etc.
For example, currently holy sword gives +2 crit range instead of +1, because IC feat erroneously doubles this bonus (IC was supposed to double only the base crit range).

But the nerf was too hard on some named weapons, which had increased BASE crit range, so now Sev fixed that.