The Balance Change post

[mikarddo]

Where is the fix to Tree form and Wolf form builds? Those are very much top level builds atm and I see no fix/nerf in your balance items.

Where is the nerf to Mortal Feat (simply make it a flat 50% which is never modified by anything)

This needs an answer before you even contemplate going through with this balance pass.

At any rate - I really like the overall idea of nerfing everything thats brokenly good at the same time though I still need to see some actual tests before I believe in the specifics.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.



Sev~

I would think that GTWF WOULD grant melee power, mainly due to the amount of dedication a build must have to attain it.......


As for the armor changes. Once again Mithril is left out. I would think to bring the BEST armor material into play again should be included. And not just a dodge bump as mentioned a year ago, Im talking about giving it the prr & mrr that the normal version would have. eg; full plate.



All in all it looks like some decent changes.

[mikarddo]

Under the proposal, Improved Critical would offer a +1 to the critical threat range of a quarterstaff. So, a regular quarterstaff that is 20/x2 would become 19-20/x2, and a named quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 would become 18-20.

Do you plan to go back and change the crit range of those named weapons so they are still worthwhile or is the plan really to ruin those weapons? Pinion, Sireth etc. look to become much worse all of the sudden...

[CeltEireson]

Deathblow for Sireth type acrobats.. threat range get neutered
followed by quarterstaff builds TR'ing to Falchion builds.

They're changing the pulveriser epic ability to insight, so it will stack now with the competence bonus from acrobat. So whilst it wont fully offset the change it will help.

[Saekee]

I assume things like assassin's Knife Spec still gives daggers a 15-20/3 crit range? or do they become 16-20/3?

I am glad about TWF fourth attack being faster. Please note that TWF is not so great against multiple mobs and its hit box is small. I suggest it be nerfed after the hit box is adjusted.

I suggested in a thread that Keen and IC could actually stack but that they do so like weapons with Keen 2 or Keen 3, i.e it adds .5w for each keen. So if you have IC: slashing and pick up a lootgen Keen3 kukri, it would become Keen 4. Just a thought. Seems like some of that weapon knowledge should not just disappear.

[Thar]

Two weapon paladins are still doing better DPS than Paladins using two handed weapons or single weapon fighting by a good margin. But by all means, we'd love to see some test numbers from Lamannia! We added some bigger DPS kobolds in the test dojo to help players test.

Sev~

why nerf the holy sword/shield buff? isn't sword and board the style that needs the most dps help? was it coding or we thought the AC bonus compensated? and really think about that if so. AC is the garbage defensive stat nowadays.

[Krelar]

I assume things like assassin's Knife Spec still gives daggers a 15-20/3 crit range? or do they become 16-20/3?

It gives +1 to crit range and crit multiplier so with the new improved crit.

Base dagger crit is 19-20x2
With Knife Spec 18-20x3
With improved crit and knife spec 16-20x3

[phalaeo]

You guys are going to HAVE to offer +20 HoW if you're changing the game this much.

Yes.... yes you are.

[serthcore]

So all the weapons with improved crit range gets nerfed, all the abilities such as holy sword or tier 5 qstaff gets nerfed.
eSoS gets nerfed.
+ extra crit range from crusader gets nerfed.

Uhm devs you sure about it?
At least adjust crusader crit range, make it give +2 now...

[Thar]

Two reasons:

~ Two Weapon Fighting is well out pacing the other styles in classes not specifically designed to use that style.
~ The animation change to Two Weapon Fighting that makes it look better also gave it a slight DPS boost.

Sev~

so the tempest changes are getting an unintended 15% dps reduction? just after they were redone and people felt they were (argueably) up to pally/barb??? remember some of us don't play dual khopesh builds and light weapons need to stay where they are at currently to be competative.

is the hit box changing for TWF because i can't hit much in front of me to get dod working with light weapons.

[CThruTheEgo]

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

I never understood why it was supposed to work like this in the first place. See this wiki page for some testing. Here is how it works currently:

Fire 100 arrows with a longbow and 20% doubleshot - you end up using 120 arrows.
Fire 100 bolts from a repeater and 20% doubleshot - you end up using 120 bolts.

In other words, both repeaters and bows receive the exact same benefit from doubleshot. Why should it be any different than this? Now if doubleshot on a repeater meant that you fired an extra volley of bolts, then I could understand why it should only benefit from 1/3 doubleshot, but that's not how it works.

Can you please explain why you all want/expect repeaters to receive a much weaker benefit from doubleshot than other bows? I would just appreciate some clarification as to why.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

I have to agree with others that removing the benefits of MRR from armor completely seems like a bad decision. I will admit that it is currently "over-performing," but removing it completely seems like too much of a nerf. Just tone it down a bit. There was a reason it was introduced in the first place, which you already mentioned - to make armor competitive with evasion. Removing the MRR benefit of armor altogether will not make armor competitive with evasion.

EDIT: Also, just my 2cp on the crit range changes. It was getting out of hand, so I understand the purpose of the changes and that it needs to be done. I'm not saying I particularly like it, but I get it.

[garynash7070]

So in one fell swoop you guys ruined half the game for the player base.

Why should a ranged Pali not be able to use missile weapons with holy sword?

Taking barbs healing and crits, well bye barbs!

You screwed up 10k stars and manyshot.

Twf feats don't get melee power?

Sev I've played nearly ten years and never have I seen such a "nerf bat" swung so hard. You will lose more and more players. Am I one? Probably not, but I won't play as much now, nor spend as much.

Good luck with all this. I think it's a huge mistake. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. Time will tell.

[Saekee]

It gives +1 to crit range and crit multiplier so with the new improved crit.

Base dagger crit is 19-20x2
With Knife Spec 18-20x3
With improved crit and knife spec 16-20x3

that is what I suspected but maybe the enhancement will get adjusted too to make daggers 15-20/3 again. Otherwise all those fancy named daggers are not so exciting anymore.

[Assassination]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities

Ability	Old	New
Eldritch Blast	150%	130%
Eldritch Blast Cone	130%	130%
Eldritch Blast Chain	110%	95%
Eldritch Blast Aura	150%	130%
Stricken (Souleater)	150%	125%
Consume (Souleater)	150%	125%
Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)	120%	100%
Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)	120%	100%

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

Did an advanced race of ddo playing aliens implant these ideas?! These are brilliant!

Really like the changes, they seem well thought out. Fighters need the love, would like to see some of the ideas

from D&D 5th edition be applied to the fighter pass. Play On!

[JP457]

Thanks so much for nerfing my toons. My melee monk hasn't been out in over a year. Now my pally/mech will be useless. Maybe you can nerf my cleric (more) next.

I thought this game was about having fun. How is it fun when you continually nerf builds that people actually like to play?

[Lycurgus]

Would really prefer to see a sweeping pass to improve "under-performing" classes prior to a "balancing pass" of this magnitude.

[Thar]

The changes are designed to cut back on the power of two weapon fighting Paladins, Vanguards, and fix the fact that Paladin 14 hybrids are by many players' estimation the best missile characters. Throwing weapons are not affected by Holy Sword.

Sev~

doesn't this killing of pally-ranged build go against the stated design goal to make other options available? you won't touch monkcher which is way op but you'll kill ranged pally? doesn't seem right? pick a seat. twf perhaps, vanguards? no idea why there. non vanguards... well goood luck getting dps from anywhere.

personally i think a ranged pally is silly design concept role playing wise but if some people like it, why not.

[Krell]

Greetings.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Sev~

I think Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword should be in the same category. Options for 1 handed weapons with glancing blow are already very limited and they both cost a feat unless you're Dwarf.

[redoubt]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Are shields really the problem? When you reduce this and reduce defense you will put paladin tanks in a bind of needing more DPS to hold agro and having less defense at the same time. I disagree with this part of the change.

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Is it really TWF or is it the recent changes to tempest?
If it is tempest, then pull tempest back.
If it is paladin, then you hit that already with the holy sword change.
And I doubt its monk, but this hurts them too.
And it also hurts assassin, is assassin a problem?

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

Thank you. I think this was greatly needed. I am not convinced that it covers the gap created by your plans to manyshot, but it will help.

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

With this and the DC change and the reduced saves from grace and the loss of heavy armor PRR, I see a resurgence of monchers.

Can you confirm that you will be able to:
Manyshot, wait 10 seconds.
10k stars. Wait 30 seconds.
10k stars.
repeat.
repeat.

As I read the cooldowns, you will have 80 seconds uptime and 40 seconds downtime each 120 seconds. Also no doubleshot penalty during the downtime.. Is this correct?

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

Requiring proficiency will already fix builds that dip into medium and heavy armor. This seems punitive to legitimate armor builds.

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

There is a lot to like in the tactical feats. I like that they don't require the previous version, that they stack and that they are fighter only. (Maybe make the first one available to anyone?)

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.

These should not be fighter only. In truth, only fighters will be able to take many of them due to not having enough feats, but more builds should get to access these. You have made PRR far too important to only give this to fighters (more so with the nerf to armor.)

Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

I don't like it, but I get it. But if you do this, you need to address the reason why so many people did it. Paladin Grace is the only reasonable way to get saves high enough. If you put this in, fix our save requirements.

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

Yes, warlocks do a lot of damage. I can see them needed some nerf-age in the heroic levels, but as other have also pointed out, at high end warlocks are not the dps monsters that they are in heroic and they are pretty easy to kill if you get sloppy for even a moment.

Better would be to find a way to tone them down in heroic and leave them alone in epic.


Thank you for the communication!

[DagazUlf]

It took me a while to process all of this, but I think they are all at least acceptable given the justifications presented.

The Armor feats seem a bit boring/weak/unattractive, though. I can think of two directions that would jazz them up a bit.

1. include some reduced armor penalties in there (skills, dex, and/or spell failure)
2. have 3 separate lines of armor feats for light, medium, and heavy that provide slightly different bonuses based on that armor type

Thanks.