The Balance Change post

[Spoonwelder]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

You and maybe 2 others per server.....If anything is an overstatement it is what you just wrote.

I have 16 alts and only one would I consider EE capable. As in I can enter EE (at level) and contribute. At level he can solo some of the easiest EE content. But he is my completionist with the best gear I have (still missing a few of the little things that could improve him but still mostly top end). Even he doesn't sit in a group of EE mobs for more than a second without having to jump out and heal. Something as easy as Unquiet Graves with 4-5 drow hitting you like Mack trucks even with 100AC/120PRR/70MRR/Displaced/Ghostly you get hit and hit hard.



Displace/Ghostly only stops 45% of hits (presuming you have no appreciable dodge if you have major PRR)
200PRR only stops 50% of damage (and most people don't have 200 - most are around 100)
100 AC doesnt really do anything in EE - so lets call that a miss on a 1 so now we are at hit 40% of the time.

So when you are getting 40% of the time for 100/hit (after PRR) and getting swung at by 4-5 mobs at even on swing a second an 1000HP character is hopping out after 3-4 seconds to heal and maybe you killed one of them during that foray.

Yeah - no that ain't happening. Maybe in WW but not in EE anything.

[bloodnose13]

Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

idk but feels to me like giveing out +8 to save just for 2 levels is still too much, 2+1 per pally level would work better in my opinion (it would make 2 levels grant max bonus of 4 that would progress up by +1 per each another level, 14 level pally would be allowed a +16 and thats 42 charisma, dont think that there are many of paladin builds that go much higher than 34 cha at lvl 20), ofc if this value would not work for pure class paladins so before this there could be added a check if paladin levels equal total levels and then if its not, activate the cap.

[blerkington]

This is what bothers me the most. They buff a bunch of (but not all) classes, one at a time, and now they're globally nerfing all those recently-buffed classes because they're too strong. What that says to me is tons of wasted development time.

Actually, that isn't what bothers me the most. What bothers me the most is that they're destroying staff builds, because they're making some weird, arbitrary and unfounded distinction that assassins and swashbucklers are in one category, but acrobats are not in that same category. Because now quarterstaffs are viewed as strong weapons, for some reason? It's infuriating.

Hi,

I couldn't agree more. Some of the forum community warned the developers about overbuffing classes since the first class pass they did. Then they did four more, and look where we are now. When will they get it through their heads that overbuffing and then nerfing later is the route of maximum disruption and community ill-will?

Anyone who still thinks the development team has some sort of coherent vision for the game is kidding themselves. They aren't 'wise', this isn't the 'miracle of capitalism' in which they are sensibly adjusting the game based on careful analysis of data they've collected in order to obtain the most money from us. That's all just nonsense. They're just chasing their tails, going around in circles at a stage of the game when we can afford it the least.

Very few people are going to be pleased by all of these nerfs; they affect nearly everyone in some way and when we come out the end of it, the game will arguably be no more enjoyable or better balanced than before. Even though I've advocated nerfs for many of the things which are being addressed, I also think they've gone too far in several areas, only one of which even affects my characters.

The fact that the exercise is being done so quickly and with so little modification based on community feedback is typical of this team and a large part of what is engendering so much community ill-will. Barfing out dozens of controversial changes into one thread, giving little time for discussion and testing, then making it all live relatively unchanged shows this exercise for what it is; an arrogant 'take-that' from a producer whose feelings were hurt by players that refused recognise his genius and who he now wants to pay back before leaving.

Thanks.

[ghtzxc]

So this nerf basically affected my twf paladin 4 times in a row ?

First he lost a critical threat range on both weapons for a total of +2 loss.

Secoundly, holy sword only works on the main hand weapon when rangers can have their own version of holy sword through :

Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat while dual wielding, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding weapons.
Requires: Graceful Death, Ranger level 12

AND

Advanced Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die. +10 Positive Spell Power. You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with your equipped weapons. (This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed). Your attacks now bypass 10% fortification.
Requires: Called Shot, Ranger level 12

Thirdly, the critical threat range effect from exalted smite was also reduced by +2 for not doubling with improved critical.

Exalted Smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.

Lastly, twf feats not providing melee power anymore.

So basically you are trying to say that every melee build except paladins should be specialized in wielding two handed weapons ?

What kind of joke is that, developers ? Finally after several years of playing a thf toon i for once wanted to play a twf paladin build i enjoy but now you are doing this ?

WHAT POINT IS THERE PLAYING A TWF PALADIN TOON AT ALL WHEN HOLY SWORD DOES NOT EVEN AFFECT YOUR OFF HAND WEAPON ?

Pure Rangers are now 60% ahead of twf paladins dps wise (30% before the holy sword nerf ) due to :

- As mentioned above, deflect arrows and advancing sneack attack tier 4 core abilities affecting both weapons main and off hand.

- Whirlwind: +5% Melee Doublestrike when dual wielding, +5 Incorporeality (stacking), +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding.

- Dervish: +4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand while dual wielding. While wearing light or no armor: +10 Melee Power, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating.

That means rangers are ahead of paladins by +40% doublestrike and a +1 crit multiplier/+1 crit threat ranger working on your offhand weapon.


Because of a little defense from sacred defender +25 prr / +25 mrr you are nerfing holy sword yet again ? You are aware that a pure ranger can get the same benefit defense wise through the capstone ability and prr/mrr per core ability let alone 5% stacking incorporeality, right ?

I am really going to cancel my vip subscription and delete the game if you are still considering gimping my only paladin build into crapiness .

Yes paladin is getting a nerf granted, but it's a nerf across the board so I think it's more fair to look at this relative to other classes taking advantage of crit-range expanding abilities being doubled by IC. I'll address each of your points here.

1. "First he lost a critical threat range on both weapons for a total of +2 loss."

Let's just be clear here, it's a +1 from each weapon due to HS expanded range not being multiplied by 2. That's not the same as a +2 loss. This is due to the change to IC; relative to other classes, paladins are not losing anything extra on the critical threat range expansion from HS (nothing is multiplied by the IC feat anymore with this upcoming update).

2. "holy sword only works on the main hand weapon when rangers can have their own version of holy sword"

Holy sword only working on the main hand is indeed a nerf directed at HS and paladin specifically and I agree that it's probably a little excessive. However, I'd be careful not to confuse this with ranger having their own version of HS. HS costs nothing more than 14 levels of Paladin to obtain; on the other hand, Ranger version of HS as you put it requires 12 Ranger levels but also 42 AP investment to obtain the level-12 cores in 2 enhancement trees. It's a lot more costly for Rangers to get their HS in this regard and also keep in mind that rangers don't have the option to take multiclass and spend 42 AP in other trees if they are to insist on obtaining their version of HS

3. "the critical threat range effect from exalted smite was also reduced by +2 for not doubling with improved critical".

I'm fairly certain that Exalted Smite's threat range was never doubled by Improved Critical; it was always a straight +2. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a long time paladin player I'm pretty confident this is the case. There is no additional nerf to Exalted Smite beyond the Improved Critical change that indirectly nerfs Exalted Smite through not multiplying a +1 crit-threat increase from HS and other crit-range expanding abilities. Again this is the same nerf that affects all classes using crit-range expanding abilities.

4. "twf feats not providing melee power anymore"

While not a paladin specific change, I would wait to see how this balances out with the faster attack animation on the TWF chain's 4th attack. Testing will have to be done to update Vanshilar's attack speed index which currently puts TWF at 102.2 swing animations per minute with a 15% attack speed boost such as you would find from Haste spell or Speed XV enchantment found on epic level items. Depending on the results, the overall outcome could be a nerf, a buff, or neither. (Link to Vanshilar's work for your reference: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae)

Finally, the comparison between ranger and paladin at the end of your post could also be made without the balance change since rangers and paladins didn't get any extra nerfs or changes other than HS not applying to the offhand. (Ranger have these abilities in their cores already and they are not to be changed directly with the upcoming Balance Change).

It hardly seems fair to compare Ranger's 2 tier 4 cores, 1 tier 5 core, and 1 capstone vs 1 spell. I would think the difference would be greatly deflated if you made a fair and more comprehensive comparison which at least includes the respective Paladin cores.

(While we're on this topic however, I noticed you highlight 10 melee power from the ranger capstone which seems like a striking difference between the two classes at first until you see that the KotC capstone offers 10 melee power as well as part of it's effects. Also 10% extra offhand strikes is not the same as additional double strike. The actual difference in double strike should be 5% from Whirlwind and 25% offhand doublestrike from Dervish. (For the sake of simplicity and as you seem to be doing, we'll say DS = offhand DS).

You are also omitting Zeal as a paladin exclusive buff to double strike, bringing the difference down to 20%.

If you were to translate this into raw % difference in DPS solely based on the amount of double strike, then you need to take into account other sources of double strike as well. A twf player would reasonably have ~10% enhancement bonus from items/DC destiny's Celestial Champion, Perfect TWF feat with 5% double strike and 10% offhand double strike. That's 25% double strike as a baseline. Take 145% over 125% that's only a 16% difference in overall DPS, significantly lower than 40%. Add in Martial Epic Destiny Past Life Doublestrike Stance (9%), that difference becomes less than 15% difference in terms of calculating raw % DPS difference from double strike alone. And that's not taking into account if you were to do a equal comparison by adding the respective paladin cores.)

On PRR and MRR: I don't think they are nerfing HS because of the PRR and MRR in SD. That's not the message I got from the devs here. They claim to nerf HS because it was overperforming in terms of TWF and it's interaction with IC feat (their claim, not mine). On a separate note, their concern with SD's 25 PRR/MRR isn't that paladins could get it but rather that it was relatively easy to obtain with a 3 paladin splash and just 6 AP. (Again, their reasoning.) Indeed you recognize this when you say that rangers can get something equivalent through their capstone which requires a 41 AP investment and inhibits any multiclassing.

All in all, I think you would be much happier if you took a more comprehensive and fairer comparison. I don't believe it's as bad as you believe it to be in your post. My estimate is that TWF Paladins will still be an extremely viable and strong build should the current balance changes go through to live. These nerfs are for the most part across the board so relatively speaking it doesn't make paladins so much weaker vs other classes as it makes everyone affected by the balance change weaker vs mobs in general. I'm in the same boat as you playing a long time TWF paladin myself. =)

Hope that helps!~

[Thar]

Dance of Death is currently the most powerful ability in the game on live. It is stronger than Holy Sword, crit profiles, and bugged double shot combined.

I give it one week for this to be discovered, when people finally start migrating to it from crit profile.

hahaha... not even close to most powerful in game. it's just newly discovered for those in ranger. it doesn't even do what it advertises due to hit box issues.

[Walking_Ride]

Yes paladin is getting a nerf granted, but it's a nerf across the board so I think it's more fair to look at this relative to other classes taking advantage of crit-range expanding abilities being doubled by IC. I'll address each of your points here.

1. "First he lost a critical threat range on both weapons for a total of +2 loss."

Let's just be clear here, it's a +1 from each weapon due to HS expanded range not being multiplied by 2. That's not the same as a +2 loss. This is due to the change to IC; relative to other classes, paladins are not losing anything extra on the critical threat range expansion from HS (nothing is multiplied by the IC feat anymore with this upcoming update).

2. "holy sword only works on the main hand weapon when rangers can have their own version of holy sword"

Holy sword only working on the main hand is indeed a nerf directed at HS and paladin specifically and I agree that it's probably a little excessive. However, I'd be careful not to confuse this with ranger having their own version of HS. HS costs nothing more than 14 levels of Paladin to obtain; on the other hand, Ranger version of HS as you put it requires 12 Ranger levels but also 42 AP investment to obtain the level-12 cores in 2 enhancement trees. It's a lot more costly for Rangers to get their HS in this regard and also keep in mind that rangers don't have the option to take multiclass and spend 42 AP in other trees if they are to insist on obtaining their version of HS

3. "the critical threat range effect from exalted smite was also reduced by +2 for not doubling with improved critical".

I'm fairly certain that Exalted Smite's threat range was never doubled by Improved Critical; it was always a straight +2. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a long time paladin player I'm pretty confident this is the case. There is no additional nerf to Exalted Smite beyond the Improved Critical change that indirectly nerfs Exalted Smite through not multiplying a +1 crit-threat increase from HS and other crit-range expanding abilities. Again this is the same nerf that affects all classes using crit-range expanding abilities.

4. "twf feats not providing melee power anymore"

While not a paladin specific change, I would wait to see how this balances out with the faster attack animation on the TWF chain's 4th attack. Testing will have to be done to update Vanshilar's attack speed index which currently puts TWF at 102.2 swing animations per minute with a 15% attack speed boost such as you would find from Haste spell or Speed XV enchantment found on epic level items. Depending on the results, the overall outcome could be a nerf, a buff, or neither. (Link to Vanshilar's work for your reference: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae)

Finally, the comparison between ranger and paladin at the end of your post could also be made without the balance change since rangers and paladins didn't get any extra nerfs or changes other than HS not applying to the offhand. (Ranger have these abilities in their coes already and they are not to be changed directly with the upcoming Balance Change).

It hardly seems fair to compare Ranger's 2 tier 4 cores, 1 tier 5 core, and 1 capstone against 1 spell offered by level 14 Paladin. I would think the difference would be greatly deflated if you made a fair and more comprehensive comparison with the respective Paladin cores.

(While we're on this topic however, I noticed you highlight 10 melee power from the ranger capstone which seems like a striking difference between the two classes at first until you see that the KotC capstone offers 10 melee power as well as part of it's effects. Also 10% extra offhand strikes is not the same as additional double strike. The actual difference in double strike should be 5% from Whirlwind and 25% offhand doublestrike from Dervish. (For the sake of simplicity we'll say DS = offhand DS).

You are also omitting Zeal as a paladin exclusive buff to double strike, bringing the difference down to 20%.

If you were to translate this into raw % difference in DPS solely based on the amount of double strike, then you need to take into account other sources of double strike as well. A twf player would reasonably have ~10% enhancement bonus from items/DC destiny's Celestial Champion, Perfect TWF feat with 5% double strike and 10% offhand double strike. That's 25% double strike as a baseline. Take 145% over 125% that's only a 16% difference in overall DPS, significantly lower than 40%. Add in Martial Epic Destiny Past Life Doublestrike Stance (9%), that difference becomes less than 15% difference in terms of calculating raw % DPS difference from double strike alone. And that's not taking into account if you were to do a equal comparison by adding the respective paladin cores.)

On PRR and MRR: I don't think they are nerfing HS because of the PRR and MRR in SD. That's not the message I got from the devs here. They claim to nerf HS because it was overperforming in terms of TWF and it's interaction with IC feat (their claim, not mine). On a separate note, their concern with SD's 25 PRR/MRR isn't that paladins could get it but rather that it was relatively easy to obtain with a 3 paladin splash and just 6 AP. (Again, their reasoning.) Indeed you recognize this when you say that rangers can get something equivalent through their capstone which requires a 41 AP investment and inhibits any multiclassing.

All in all, I think you would be much happier if you took a more comprehensive and fairer comparison. I don't believe it's as bad as you believe it to be in your post. My estimate is that TWF Paladins will still be an extremely viable and strong build should the current balance changes go through to live. These nerfs are for the most part across the board so relatively speaking it doesn't make paladins so much weaker vs other classes so much that it makes everyone affected weaker vs mobs in general. I'm in the same boat as you playing a long time TWF paladin myself. =)

Hope that helps!~

Total gain for rangers compared to paladins :

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps.

...

Just some informative numbers. If that helps.

[Walking_Ride]

hahaha... not even close to most powerful in game. it's just newly discovered for those in ranger. it doesn't even do what it advertises due to hit box issues.

Even maxed out i am only able to hit 2 targets...

[Spoonwelder]

Even maxed out i am only able to hit 2 targets...

I found the same thing....I had been running a 15/3/2 Pal/Rng/Fi in various forms for ETRing (after pally update but before ranger) and people kept going on and on about the 15/5 variant and how great dance of death was and how I should be in 15/4/1 or even 14/4/2 (it was so good you could forgo Zeal?)

I tried a simpler 15/5 and was totally underwhelmed.. I was losing alot of AP to get to that and I wasn't getting nearly the level of AOE damage I could get out of a simple Cleave/Avenging Cleave rotation with KOTC. I tried it both ways with that build (T5 Tempest/T5 KotC) and was much happier with KOTC....to the extent that after I was done my Warlock lives when I TR'd I went full Pally Vangaurd. I will admit my DPS is down a bit but my durability is way up.

[Walking_Ride]

I found the same thing....I had been running a 15/3/2 Pal/Rng/Fi in various forms for ETRing (after pally update but before ranger) and people kept going on and on about the 15/5 variant and how great dance of death was and how I should be in 15/4/1 or even 14/4/2 (it was so good you could forgo Zeal?)

I tried a simpler 15/5 and was totally underwhelmed.. I was losing alot of AP to get to that and I wasn't getting nearly the level of AOE damage I could get out of a simple Cleave/Avenging Cleave rotation with KOTC. I tried it both ways with that build (T5 Tempest/T5 KotC) and was much happier with KOTC....to the extent that after I was done my Warlock lives when I TR'd I went full Pally Vangaurd. I will admit my DPS is down a bit but my durability is way up.

Yep, it is hilarious. Nerfing holy sword again because of this **** is beyond my understanding.

[Thar]

Total gain for rangers compared to paladins :

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps.

...

Just some informative numbers. If that helps.

total gain for pally's - heavy armor and prr so they can survive getting hit. you do no dps as a stone. get 7d6 light damage, cleaves, stance, AC and speed boost from vanguard.

not saying this change is good but don't throw all the good ranger stats and forget the good pally info too.

[unbongwah]

What bothers me the most is that they're destroying staff builds, because they're making some weird, arbitrary and unfounded distinction that assassins and swashbucklers are in one category, but acrobats are not in that same category. Because now quarterstaffs are viewed as strong weapons, for some reason? It's infuriating.

The ones I really pity are the Kensei holdouts, who are about to see Keen Edge's effectiveness cut in half...like they weren't struggling enough to keep up!

EDIT: my solution would've been simpler - keep Imp Crit's current functionality, but only apply it to the weapon's base crit range; any crit range bonuses from PrEs or EDs are applied after IC, not before. So weapons like Sireth, eSOS, etc. get to keep their base crit profile, but lose the free doubling of extra crit range bonuses, which seems to be what Turbine is really trying to nerf. In instances where this nerfs DPS too much (e.g., Celestial Champion), they can increase those crit range bonuses instead.

[CrackedIce]

The ones I really pity are the Kensei holdouts, who are about to see Keen Edge's effectiveness cut in half...like they weren't struggling enough to keep up! mu

I'm assuming that they will make keen edge +2 when they get to kensei as they were the original crit threat enhancement.

[Walking_Ride]

total gain for pally's - heavy armor and prr so they can survive getting hit. you do no dps as a stone. get 7d6 light damage, cleaves, stance, AC and speed boost from vanguard.

not saying this change is good but don't throw all the good ranger stats and forget the good pally info too.

Lmao, is that all you have to offer ? Not trying to undermine rangers here. But i am pointing out on why paladins do not deserve such a punishment.

[alancarp]

... grinding through our high end test kobolds ...
Sev~

I so want a high-end test kobold to whale on.

[Vyrzain]

Greetings.


Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Sev~

Impact and Keen the same ?

This could be a minor oversight but I wanted to at least give a quick post on it. I have been burnt before with a post from Severlin when planning what I wanted to play and what was in said post vs what is live.

Anyway,

Is it safe to assume the wording should be “Keen / Impact”?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Keen
Piercing & Slashing weapons…. The base critical threat range of this weapon is doubled

http://ddowiki.com/page/Impact
Bludgeoning weapons…. The base critical threat range of this weapon is doubled

OR

Are Bludgeoning weapons with Impact still going to follow the old Crit system?

Because I am only seeing Piercing & Slashing weapons with modifiers over +1.

[Souless]

Changes look good to me and it seems that most of the folks upset are running toons based on some or many of these exploits. Which is kind of surprising because they know these builds are temporary when they invest in them. I have toons that will be effected by these changes but none of them will break because of them. So it's not that I am uneffected or don't understand. I like the idea of a balanced game where many different builds are viable even if they require, omg don't say it, a team. Everyone needs to remember that this is a game to be played for fun, by everyone, and flavors of the month are just that. Keep up the good work devs and don't be swayed by players who's only interest in the game is the kill count.

Thanks for your hard work

This will be my last post on this topic as you guys at Turbine are going to implement whatever changes you want regardless of the rants that are here in these forums.

But what I find funny is: this is Warsmurf's 1st post. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahaha

As for everyone that has said that the game is "too easy" I double-dog dare you to get a group of your friends together, go in DoJ on EN (I'm not even asking u to make it through EE or EH for that matter), get to the final fight, and I say what the heck, kill the worm. Your task is to survive (on a non-evasion build) 1 bombardment.

The Bytcher~

[ghtzxc]

Total gain for rangers compared to paladins :

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps.

"Fortification Bypass"

True yes, but I don't see how the balance update nerfs or affects this other than empowering those with less fortification bypass (paladins) slightly due to the less crits everyone will be getting post-balance.

"Double Strike"

Right again, but none of this is changed by the balance update. (Technically, Whirlwind gives +10% offhand proc chance, not +10% offhand doublestrike, though effectively I see your point.) It's still not any different post-balance update though.

"Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike."

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Killer is a t4 enhancement from DWS and so if you're talking about multiclassing I don't see why you couldn't get both Exalted Smite + Divine Sacrifice as well as Killer. If you were a multiclass with 6 ranger you could get Exposing Strike as well. Since we were talking about capstones earlier, how about we stick with the pure class for discussion's sake?

"+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec"

These are both available already and not affected directly by the balance update either.

"For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps"

While I might agree that HS nerf to not affect the offhand might be excessive, I find it hard to believe that over a quarter of your DPS comes from a +1 critical multiplier and +1 critical threat range from roughly half your attacks due to it being only on your offhand. (Actually even less that half since double strike applies to main hand and sources of *offhand* double strike are significantly rarer for paladins (only 10% from Perfect TWF)).

Perhaps we could have a look at how you calculated that +1 crit multiplier threat on just the offhand is responsible for 26% of your dps? I'm getting more like ~9.5% TOTAL dps loss from the IC nerf and the HS offhand nerf, with the IC nerf being responsible for about ~6.5% of that dps loss and the +1 crit range and multiplier on the offhand only responsible for ~3% of that dps loss. This is in LD. 3% is no where near 26%.

It seems more like you're just comparing paladins vs rangers in general and I certainly don't have a problem with it but I really do think you'll be happier with paladin if you took a more comprehensive and apples-to-apples comparison. You're highlighting many advantages of ranger such as double strike but I think it's unfair to leave out the advantages of paladin when you're making your DPS conclusions, Divine Sacrifice/Exalted Smite, free Cleaves that are more powerful than the feats, superior healing amplification, and scaling light damage procs.

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on rangers but I think "this other class has this, I want it too" is a rather poor argument given that almost everything you mentioned about rangers vs paladins was not even changed in the Balance Update (the ranger cores you mentioned weren't touched in the release notes). The ONLY thing that nerfs paladins specifically from this update is the holy sword off hand nerf which you claim is 26% of your DPS. Do you have any calculations/tests to back this up?

[elvesunited]

So if I'm to understand my warlock's ability to use Eldritch burst, spirit blast, consume, stricken while wearing heavy armor and tower shield is a bug? If so that really sucks as I've designed my warlock tank around it what I thought was a feature of the class.

any word of critical range change and wolf animal form and bards swashbucling with low crit range weapons? ( such as swashbuckling thrower builds? )

What's everyone got against an armored mage? It takes a lot of gear and abilities to get the ASF down far enough. And it only gives an edge to survival. They're still pretty squishy.

[zerit2002]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

LOL I don't think we are playing the same DDO.

[maddong]

hahaha... not even close to most powerful in game. it's just newly discovered for those in ranger. it doesn't even do what it advertises due to hit box issues.

Tree form?