The Balance Change post

[FestusHood]

When you TR, you get passives from all lives before, giving you more HP, Def, MRR or PRR.

When you start a new character, you can only play normal. And it's not super easy. Gear would help, but new players don't have that. Think "NEW-PLAYER" more than "TR". I'm sorry, but your seeing it wrong. You still haven't gone on lammania to try a TWF rogue from scratch. I'm sure you'll die in Korthos from stuff you normal wouldn't.

EDIT : A TR'd character also probably have some tomes.

My level 3 guy, actually level 4 now is going to be an acrobat. He's wearing some light +2 armor i pulled out of a chest. I crafted him a 10% alacrity item. Yes, he is a 36 point build. Yes, he has tomes but they mostly don't apply at that level. He is a strength build, a half orc, so his dex and intelligence are low.

What is really different about the lammania assassin vs the one on live? You are talking about korthos. Those feats that lost the melee power? You don't have them yet. When i started playing, before the ac system change, the general rule was that everything hit you, every time, because it did. AC did about nothing without heavy investment. There was no dodge as we now know it. Now ac is amazing at low levels. Just putting on armor is going to get you missed half the time at level. When i started there was no such thing as prr or mrr. You took all the damage, all the time.

Most of the difference for me is in perception. When i started, i remember when things started hitting me in melee for more than 30 damage, i was shocked by it. Literally freaked out. Now, after playing through epic elites, where the damage is much higher, those things are still hitting me for about the same amount of damage ( i play a lot of low prr characters) it just doesn't freak me out any more. It's something that comes from experience, and some power creep in the game mechanics, which they are rightly trying to tone down some. The difference the past lives i have make is just not that much.

[Lord_Jaffacake]

With all these nerfs (whether good or bad) I would like one nerf on the enemies. Mostly for trash mobs but global to all enemies work. Thier saves are way too high it seems for DC using abilities. There looks to be a possible remedy for fighters (multi w/ftr in also) builds. My toons (Spellcaster enchantment pure bard (gets through spell pen good enough, and has all DC increases available in the tree) and wisdom based pure monk) have a hard time landing their CC abilities on enemies. Yes I try to get gear to improve these and take the feats (i.e. spell focus line) to improve them. I think a -2 to enemy saves on hard and -5 on elite might help land a little better. Or maybe just some more Global DC increase to certain areas like wizard (arcmage line), monk (abilities that require DCs in order to effect) and Bards (spell singer). I left out warlock because they have good normal attack with edritch blast and i think the nerf to it will weaken it but it will still be an effective attack after.

Anyway just my 2 copper asking for a nerf to a specific area with enemies (mostly whats suppose to be trash) as the rest of the aspects for enemies are fine.

Also Thank you for the great game that is DDO and still continues to be great even with the lagg problems.

Agreed and this is another reason I think they should consider doing an entire spell / dc pass before launching with these changes. It's making me nervous how it gives the impression that they are looking to force these changes out with Night Revels. I just see too much frankly high risk, low gain to stand with the current proposed changes right now.

[Nestroy]

Le Sigh...

A new player in Korthos is in no way affected by the changes to:

- A spell cast that requires 14 levels of Paladin

- A feat that requires at least 8th level

- Enhancements that require 12th character level

- Feats that require 6th level

- Epic Destiny changes

etc, etc, etc.

I think that "New Player" needs some definition. I would define "New Player" as beeing new to DDO (well, self explanatory), beeing on a 1st life, 28 pt build and not well vised in game mechanics. That toon could be lv. 1, lv. 7, lv. 12 or lv. 20, or even in the epics. It´s a "New Player". I would define "Experienced Player" as being a player with at least one toon at least once TRed, meanwhile both heroic and epic. I ould define "Vet Player" as having multiple toons on presumably more than one server and with at least one completionist toon in the mix.

I would say, all the nerfs comming do hit "New Players" as well. and no, even a lv. 20 new player will not be wised enough to know that heavy armor got nerfed by 30 points MRR. But a new player will feel that most casters will hit much better on his/her toon.

[Mirta]

Le Sigh...

A new player in Korthos is in no way affected by the changes to:

See:

Korthos is just being used as an example of how the game isn't friendly to new players. All these changes are being made to nerf elitists, completionists, etc, but nobody takes into account how it affects people who are on their first lives and playing through for the first time. The game is not friendly to new players because it is built/balanced for experienced/geared players.

Trying to say that nerfs affect everybody, and new players are no exception. No new players means no new income. Old players leave, none come in, game dies. Not complicated. I wonder if devs ever test changes on undergeared first lifers to ensure new players aren't scared off.

[Braegan]

I think that "New Player" needs some definition. I would define "New Player" as beeing new to DDO (well, self explanatory), beeing on a 1st life, 28 pt build and not well vised in game mechanics. That toon could be lv. 1, lv. 7, lv. 12 or lv. 20, or even in the epics. It´s a "New Player". I would define "Experienced Player" as being a player with at least one toon at least once TRed, meanwhile both heroic and epic. I ould define "Vet Player" as having multiple toons on presumably more than one server and with at least one completionist toon in the mix.

I would say, all the nerfs comming do hit "New Players" as well. and no, even a lv. 20 new player will not be wised enough to know that heavy armor got nerfed by 30 points MRR. But a new player will feel that most casters will hit much better on his/her toon.

I know. I wasn't the one that brought up Korthos tho, so I was responding to what was posted.

Yes it points out the silliness being posted.

[Nestroy]

Wasn't being tougher one of DDO original draws, to the point of even being mentioned in advertising?

I wasn't in DDO yet then, but I seem to recall some of the true old-timers telling me that.

I don't think "being tougher" is necessarily a draw-back or a reason people leave. There are people who find easy-buttons boring.

And, honestly, with the massive power increase everyone got in The Enhancement Pass, all the angst over the slight reductions proposed here is amusing. Game is still far, far easier than a few years back.

Well, there has been a reason then why DDO needed a rescue in form of going f2p and opening up on many strict pnp rules. Permanent blindness? Permanent level drains? Only healing in taverns at Silver Flame priests? Well... DDO certainly was harder when we had to do WW and Steam Tunnels to get to Market Place. And I still miss the old tent. But anyways, DDO is a completely different game today. Level cap is currently lv. 28 and not back at lv. 8. I would suggest to keep in mind that DDO got much easier than when it started, and it saved the game. DDO was loosing money and players when they decided to open up, make f2p and did away with much of the pnp lore that was putting much too high a difficulty on the game.

I had a one-month tryout back then when DDO opened. I am still a vivid pnp player and DM. And I liked DDO then, back in 2006. But I like DDO nowadays too - just because its easier and "more fun". But its not pnp, it lost much of the original 3ed touch&feel. At the plus side, its still open to play.

I would suggest, as I said before, to give power and fan players a reaper difficulty that is really challenging. I would suggest to keep elite as it currently is and to make reaper exactly like elite, except all mobs champs, no ship buffs working, negative effects beeing permanent and no past life bonuses applying. And then have fun everybody that wants to.

[FestusHood]

Right, but you still have that alacrity item, and probably haste/heal/rage/resist pots and ship buffs. New players don't. It may not sound like a lot, but it really is. When you're level 1, go into a level 2 quest on normal and take half of your HP in damage against the first monster with no way to heal because you don't have money for pots... It can be difficult depending on the class.

I'll grant you, the ship buffs, particularly the resists, make a large difference. Those aren't actually unavailable to new players though, they just need to join a guild. That's a good idea if possible even if there weren't any buffs. .

In a level 2 quest on normal, the mobs hit for about 1-2 damage, maybe. In fact, just having run through misery peak on elite, they don't do much more. I did have cure serious wounds pots. I also had a hireling, not because i needed it, but i just like bringing them along. I was with one other player. Nothing in there is that dangerous. For one thing, they die too fast. That's everybody not just vets. The weapons are stronger than they used to be. Just having something like flaming on a weapon makes a noticeable difference at that level.

I guess the main difference for me vs a new player is that i no longer waste my time doing things that don't work, i.e. strafing, tumbling, generally moving around a lot with the idea that somehow it will make the mobs miss me. I learned a long time ago that the mobs hit me just as much, so i stopped doing those things. I have learned which actions actually do have an effect, and when to make them. I no longer panic when my hit points begin to drop, i just take steps to fix it.

[Gothdom]

Wasn't being tougher one of DDO original draws, to the point of even being mentioned in advertising?

I wasn't in DDO yet then, but I seem to recall some of the true old-timers telling me that.

I don't think "being tougher" is necessarily a draw-back or a reason people leave. There are people who find easy-buttons boring.

And, honestly, with the massive power increase everyone got in The Enhancement Pass, all the angst over the slight reductions proposed here is amusing. Game is still far, far easier than a few years back.

That was 10 years ago. We need new blood in the game. If you and the council try to make this "your" world, then all will fail. I left for a year and a half when I started playing. Thelanis, then, was full of "new player? FU! " and "if you want to be on my guild, you have to speak with that dude, go on the web, be on probation for 6 months, and you must be a cleric because we have only 4".

I came back because a friend was playing. The world was already changed. Got an invite to a guild, and the people in are so friendly and we invite all new players in to give them hints, help, gear and buffs. We don't care if anyone dies in heroic, even before the xp fix that just came out.

Without these, I don't think I would've stayed. Now that I have ETR'd a couple of times, I'm grateful for the time I spent, but I'm not sure I'll ever create a brand new toon. No, in fact I did create new toons, but they are now mules because I don't want to go through the grinding fest of first life. It concerns me because I love new players. I like to help and teach some things. I learn some more from other guildies every day. This patch hinders some classes more than balance the Pally and Bard. The warlock changes are needed, but not like that. When was the last time you saw a pure Iconic? Even rogues are still just splashed for some skills. I see some pure rogues, but they all say the same thing : "never again". I think that it's a great indication that IT'S NOT FUN TO PLAY. The main goal of devs, before balance and all, is that this game is fun. This patch takes away some of the fun. I talk a lot about pure rogues because it was my first life. It was a nightmare. The TR reward is not worth the trouble. Still, for completionist, I'll have to do more lives as *shudder* rogue. The stealth is weird, because some monster just see or hear you even with ultimate skills. I don't know if it got fixed, but you were never able to sneak a spider. It had a 6th sense or something. In epics, you get to kill one dude and get destroyed. And if you play caster, for some unknown reason, even when you are behind a wall and someone else starts the fight, more than 1 or 2 monsters of the group goes straight to you.

Balance is one thing, but why make it harder for the new players? TWF is borked. It was working ok on rogues with the right gear, and yes it gave too much power to other builds. Why not just make it unavailable if you take a class. And if you try to bypass, you can't take that class if you choose the feat. Yes Pally gets penalized, but not EVERYONE ELSE!

[Braegan]

See:



Trying to say that nerfs affect everybody, and new players are no exception. No new players means no new income. Old players leave, none come in, game dies. Not complicated. I wonder if devs ever test changes on undergeared first lifers to ensure new players aren't scared off.

As posted previously the challenge level of the game on Elite is not designed nor catered towards new players. If some want to be brave and slug through it, that's fine but that is not the target audience of that difficulty. That said, playing on Normal I seriously doubt even new players are finding the overall game difficult. Sure, there are the occasional quests that present unique and tougher challenges but those are the minority.

By and large this game has been made easier and easier. Pulling back a bit on the reigns is good for the game right now.

[Gothdom]

I'll grant you, the ship buffs, particularly the resists, make a large difference. Those aren't actually unavailable to new players though, they just need to join a guild. That's a good idea if possible even if there weren't any buffs. .

In a level 2 quest on normal, the mobs hit for about 1-2 damage, maybe. In fact, just having run through misery peak on elite, they don't do much more. I did have cure serious wounds pots. I also had a hireling, not because i needed it, but i just like bringing them along. I was with one other player. Nothing in there is that dangerous. For one thing, they die too fast. That's everybody not just vets. The weapons are stronger than they used to be. Just having something like flaming on a weapon makes a noticeable difference at that level.

I guess the main difference for me vs a new player is that i no longer waste my time doing things that don't work, i.e. strafing, tumbling, generally moving around a lot with the idea that somehow it will make the mobs miss me. I learned a long time ago that the mobs hit me just as much, so i stopped doing those things. I have learned which actions actually do have an effect, and when to make them. I no longer panic when my hit points begin to drop, i just take steps to fix it.

Not every new player to DDO knows about sunny and snowy side Korthos. Most don't even know about guilds and ship buffs

[UurlockYgmeov]

As posted previously the challenge level of the game on Elite is not designed nor catered towards new players. If some want to be brave and slug through it, that's fine but that is not the target audience of that difficulty. That said, playing on Normal I seriously doubt even new players are finding the overall game difficult. Sure, there are the occasional quests that present unique and tougher challenges but those are the minority.

By and large this game has been made easier and easier. Pulling back a bit on the reigns is good for the game right now.

well said and I agree.

/humerousranton
Paladin has SO much more to offer than Ranger... and people seem to forget lay on hands, deathward, zeal, and so many other perks. if you want DPS then play a DPS specific class. Paladin was never intended to be TOP dps. So if you add up everything paladin has you get a MUST play this class --- and that is absolutely chronically bad for the game.

Should a 2WF Ranger out dps a 2WF Paladin? yes. total package of ranger abilities vs paladin abilities mean the paladin gives up some dps for useful spells, self healing, armor etc. (except for against chaotic evil outsiders, the Paladin should reign supreme).

I always find it so amusing that when discussing changes to a class that make it do less DPS, two things are never factored in: overall class or total class perks / advantages and total class balance. How about this: we keep the Paladin as the highest DPS - but strip out all self healing and spells and deity.... oh wait, then you get something called... a fighter.

hyperbole: Having your cake and eating it too makes the game die because now there are only paladins in the world... how boring. ;p

/humerousrantoff

[EllisDee37]

Korthos is just being used as an example of how the game isn't friendly to new players. All these changes are being made to nerf elitists, completionists, etc, but nobody takes into account how it affects people who are on their first lives and playing through for the first time. The game is not friendly to new players because it is built/balanced for experienced/geared players.

A brand new player starting right now has it orders of magnitude easier than I did when I started back in 2011. There's just so much more player power and defense at low levels it's not even in the same ballpark.

[Nestroy]

A brand new player starting right now has it orders of magnitude easier than I did when I started back in 2011. There's just so much more player power and defense at low levels it's not even in the same ballpark.

There is so much more you need to know nowadays than you needed back in 2011. Many more classes, options, enhancements. New players more often than not are completely lost in all the possibilities they find in DDO.

[UurlockYgmeov]

A brand new player starting right now has it orders of magnitude easier than I did when I started back in 2011. There's just so much more player power and defense at low levels it's not even in the same ballpark.

true.

[unbongwah]

There is so much more you need to know nowadays than you needed back in 2011. Many more classes, options, enhancements. New players more often than not are completely lost in all the possibilities they find in DDO.

Sure, but that's been true for a long time; it's both the best and worst thing about DDO. It also has nothing to do with the forthcoming balance nerfs discussed in this thread.

Plus let's not forget: if by "newbie" we mean "F2P first-lifer," they're not going to have access to Hard or Elite quests right off the bat. They'll have to level the old-fashioned way: starting with Normal quests in snowy Korthos. If said newbie throws themselves into the deep end by joining an Elite PUG run by vets plowing thru their current TR...well, they'll learn pretty quickly why that's not the best way to learn the game for themselves, won't they?

EDIT: the idea these balance changes are somehow going to make Normal leveling that challenging are beyond absurd.

[Mirta]

As posted previously the challenge level of the game on Elite is not designed nor catered towards new players. If some want to be brave and slug through it, that's fine but that is not the target audience of that difficulty. That said, playing on Normal I seriously doubt even new players are finding the overall game difficult. Sure, there are the occasional quests that present unique and tougher challenges but those are the minority.

Fair enough.

By and large this game has been made easier and easier. Pulling back a bit on the reigns is good for the game right now.

It seems like the whole intent of this is to try to get diversity in player builds, not to increase difficulty. Increasing difficulty is just an unintended side effect that may or may not be worth complaining about. I have heard how they want to bring warlocks, barbs, pallies, twf'ers in line with other builds, but haven't seen them make those other builds worth playing. Instead they're just punishing the people who put time and effort into specific builds. Those people aren't just going to change to other classes because they lost a little power.

To the devs: Again, where is the fighter/sorc/wiz/healer pass that will make these worth playing? Please don't try to balance things before you fix those. You'll just end up having to do this "balance" thing again.

[patang01]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

The problem with this fix is that the Barb jumping into the middle will still do it. Classes that normally couldn't are the ones that suffer from across the board nerf's. It's a fix with a maul.

[Nestroy]

Sure, but that's been true for a long time; it's both the best and worst thing about DDO. It also has nothing to do with the forthcoming balance nerfs discussed in this thread.

Plus let's not forget: if by "newbie" we mean "F2P first-lifer," they're not going to have access to Hard or Elite quests right off the bat. They'll have to level the old-fashioned way: starting with Normal quests in snowy Korthos. If said newbie throws themselves into the deep end by joining an Elite PUG run by vets plowing thru their current TR...well, they'll learn pretty quickly why that's not the best way to learn the game for themselves, won't they?

EDIT: the idea these balance changes are somehow going to make Normal leveling that challenging are beyond absurd.

I will not argue against this. Except for the fact that "normal" quests still are "hard" to do for absolute newbies. Heck, even I (and I consinder myself to be in the "Vet" category meanwhile) had a good time running Heytons on Normal the other day when I tried a server I haven´t been on to for a very long time. And I had deleted my toons there then. Well... Heyton died. Because I did forget to bring a healer hire... Shame on me. This had been normal. Was a hard reminder that I am not invincible in DDO.

We all had been new to DDO once. Some seem to forget this fact from time to time.

Regarding the nerfs and back to topic: Some are OK, some are not. The most annoying thing are not the nerfs per se - we had this before in DDO and the pendulum swings from time to time, from pyjama to heavy armor back to pyjama, e.g. The most annoying thing with these nerfs: They come bundled. And they are turning back time well into 2013, when Pally was in the dog shed and pyjama builds were roaming everywhere. And where you got denied group access in raids when you did not have rog 2 evasion. The only diffeence, as far as I can see: The Bard remains out of the dog house for now.

[tsteigner]

Sure, but that's been true for a long time; it's both the best and worst thing about DDO. It also has nothing to do with the forthcoming balance nerfs discussed in this thread.

Plus let's not forget: if by "newbie" we mean "F2P first-lifer," they're not going to have access to Hard or Elite quests right off the bat. They'll have to level the old-fashioned way: starting with Normal quests in snowy Korthos. If said newbie throws themselves into the deep end by joining an Elite PUG run by vets plowing thru their current TR...well, they'll learn pretty quickly why that's not the best way to learn the game for themselves, won't they?

EDIT: the idea these balance changes are somehow going to make Normal leveling that challenging are beyond absurd.

i see that completly different, those changes are hurting new player's more then veteran's (with vet i call anyone 5-6+ TR + 2-3 iTR / eTR) because they don't know whats ahead of them in this quest and where, and taking away a bit of failsave (which these changes do) is hurting them not only on e but also on h + n .......

And to the joining PUG's on elite, i don't know where most of those which are for this changes are playing on, but i can tell you on my server, the only groups you will find, beside guild groups are elite ....

so finally, vet's aren't gonna be hurt much by these changes, they know what to do to counter them, and will be back to the status quo in 1 week latest, but new players (all not already having 2-3 TR's) will be scared away by something which is in their mind to hard. And a mmo doesn't live by the top 1% but by the majority that makes up the rest 99%.

I stay in the same mind as some already mentioned, rather then use a 2ton sledgehammer to punch everything down, make a new difficuility (sp?) for the quests, which can only be accessed if you have completionist and make it so no hirelings, no ship buffs, no PL or whatever in that diff and leave the rest as it is ... so those who feel everything is to easy can try their "new" builds on this diff.

[EllisDee37]

To the devs: Again, where is the fighter/sorc/wiz/healer pass that will make these worth playing? Please don't try to balance things before you fix those. You'll just end up having to do this "balance" thing again.

This is what bothers me the most. They buff a bunch of (but not all) classes, one at a time, and now they're globally nerfing all those recently-buffed classes because they're too strong. What that says to me is tons of wasted development time.

Actually, that isn't what bothers me the most. What bothers me the most is that they're destroying staff builds, because they're making some weird, arbitrary and unfounded distinction that assassins and swashbucklers are in one category, but acrobats are not in that same category. Because now quarterstaffs are viewed as strong weapons, for some reason? It's infuriating.