The Balance Change post

[FranOhmsford]

The thoughts I see on this:

1) Why isn't this linked on the launcher? The 90% of the players in the game are going to update their client and their toons will be abysmal and much of what they worked on will be dead.

Good point.

2) Melee monks, already nerfed hard, are going to be even worse. Yay?

Melee Monks don't wear armour in the first place - Yes they're in a bad spot currently but this isn't going to make them worse just not going to help them.

3) You built content for needing high PRR and MRR, and now you're... removing MRR? That seems like a truly stupid idea. You spent much effort making armor worthwhile, and now what reason would I want to not just go flat out dodge/evasion toon?

I can give you one reason for not going flat out dodge/evasion - DODGE CAP!

If I'm going to get hit every other attack {or more likely 2 out of every 3} and I get one-shot by every hit then I may as well have ZERO Dodge!

Dodge is a complete waste of time without enough PRR to make it so that you can survive at least 2 hits in a row!

This is the real problem with Melee Monks - Even in Earth Stance the best PRR they can get without Past Lives is around 95 {Nowhere near enough!}. In any Stance other than Earth forget about running anything harder than EN!

4) I don't think you're building for the current game climate. These changes I could see being made 5 years ago. But now we live in a game where there are not healbots, and you're making us absorb alot more damage. We live in a game where people have to solo or shortman due to insufficient other players to play with, and you're making mobs do more damage in larger groups. Simply put, many of these changes are made to a game which no longer exists.

I hadn't thought of this but good point.

[Chaoscheerio]

I recently started to work on my bank toons as my main characters are kinda finished. So I took this character and bring to heroic, and had no problem with anything. Of course I couldn't streamroll and destroy everything like I do with my invested characters, but I did not had any situation where I couldn't complete because I'm gimp. And cannith crystal is pretty bad example. Try harder.

No. I think I've made my points clear enough. I'm not here to impress or sway you.

[DagazUlf]

We are hoping to get Lamannia reopened this week. Stay tuned.

With character transfers?

[Assassination]

The overwhelming feedback we've been getting for about the past year (except for the first implementation of Champions) has been that the game has become "too easy" for many players. We recognize that there is always an array of opinion, so while the game may be too easy for some, others would see it as just right, and still others feel the game remains difficult. The general trend has been to increase class power as we've been working on our "class passes", and these balance changes are meant in part to keep the game challenging but fun for as wide a group as we can. We expect to get a lot of feedback in the coming weeks and months on these changes, and if things need further work, we want to react to that.
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This has to be the most difficult part of the game to balance. You have new players running around in the game with players who have years of experience and past lives. Epic past lives, primal fast healing for example, make running through heroic content quite easy. New players don't have these advantages though, and the game is much more difficult.

Maybe the new "reaper" level will help with this. I think some of the new content, update 27 and 28, helps because new players have access to some great gear. This gear can go a long way to helping them bridge the gap, until they get some of the nice gear from the raids.

It's still a complicated matter though. I think a lot of new players get frustrated by the difficulty of the game, and those of us who have been playing for a few years are frustrated that it seems so easy....

Balance, it's not a simple matter.

[patang01]

You make no sense. First you say heavy armor is useless because it no longer gives MRR, but after you say the PRR it gives means something. People say that PRR is being nerfed and they will all suck but at same time say heavy armor is useless, even if it gives more PRR.

Seriously, stop and think a bit.

Now the choice is light armor for more magical resistance (also more investiment in reflex, that people just DON'T THINK ABOUT but at same time somewhy they say heavy armor is an investiment even if for most mlees it's free) or heavy for more non-magical resistance. That's how it should be. And it's not like dropping from 60 to 30 is going to kill you. You just take 15% more spell damage. This is pretty balanced to me.

He's saying that people pick path of least resistance. Why gear up to be good at PRR and mediocre MRR when you can more easily gear up to be mediocre in PRR and great at evasion? That is how it was prior to armor up.

You could invest all you wanted in PRR but that means squat when an evasion build can evade most magic damage and heavy armor users soaks it. This is the exact experience people had prior to armor up. Do you honestly think that reversing armor up will somehow leave the situation different?

The pure experience from before that taking more magic damage that you can't mitigate through pittance of healing will make people move towards evasion again. That is what happened from MOTU up until armor up. Each update had fewer and fewer people play heavy armor builds.

[hit_fido]

First you say heavy armor is useless because it no longer gives MRR, but after you say the PRR it gives means something.

No where did I say "heavy armor is useless because it no longer gives MRR". Argue in good faith or go pound sand.

The issue is that without any MRR inherent in medium and heavy armor, the game overwhelmingly favors giving up 24 PRR in favor of gaining evasion. That's without factoring in the higher dodge achievable with cloth/light armor.

Turbine obviously thinks they swung too far. I think they should try two of the three changes (proficiency bug fixed, removing base PRR and steep scaling vs BAB) without dropping MRR. I also think some reduction may be reasonable, but dropping it entirely wouldn't achieve a balance between light, medium, and heavy, it will again swing too far back toward favoring light + evasion.

If you disagree, fine. Don't misrepresent my position.

[patang01]

I recently started to work on my bank toons as my main characters are kinda finished. So I took this character and bring to heroic, and had no problem with anything. Of course I couldn't streamroll and destroy everything like I do with my invested characters, but I did not had any situation where I couldn't complete because I'm gimp. And cannith crystal is pretty bad example. Try harder.

You should try the heroic update 27 and 28 on Elite.

The heroic content prior to all these changes are not up to snuff. It's a terrible comparison to make largely because of the changes to the enhancements that have put more power into the heroic game and only compensated somewhat in the Epic game (most of the updates have been Epic, only ToEE and 27 and 28 added heroic content taking in account the recent enhancement changes).

I entered those on heroic Elite and it was appropriately hairy.

Plus Warlocks are pretty super in Heroic (sorta like Arti's), but not as brutal in Epic. Much of it because the benefit from the enhancement trees are outgrown by the increase in DPS, saves and HP in Epic where most of the benefit comes from destinies.

Again - you will steamroll most old heroic materical. It's the nature given that it has seen no change whatsoever since all the new material, better equipment and epic past life editions.

[FestusHood]

Are they now? I have a whole range of toons I use. The latest change to rangers had me invest more time to play it. It's not high on PRR and MRR but its evasion makes up for lack of MRR. That are the changes that make sense.

Finding the proper balance between utility of armor and evasion is key - removing MRR brings us back to before armor up. Do you honestly think people will go - fine. I'll stick with my damage soaker and deal with it. The deal before was that even with cocoon and several types of tick heals (such as the new potions the damage from magical sources was debilitating. People dropped heavy armor toons because no one wants to sponge heal people that can't effectively take care of themselves. it's not brain surgery.

So no, I don't buy your argument because we already know the history. PRR only builds will not survive. that was the case before and that will be the case in the future. You might see lower DPS sword and board builds with fighter splashes trying to use all 4 new armor feats and say a vanguard/tanker type build but the likelyhood is just another move towards ranged and evasion. MOTU up until armor up did that. With each increase in level cap we saw less and less melee characters. These are facts.

And no - PRR existed from MOTU and forward. It was introduced in order to remove that absolutes where AC was only effective if you went all in. With MOTU defense became layered. AC for lower hit chance (but no absolutes this time), dodge was introduced and tinkered with as in addition to AC and not part of AC as before and PRR, to reduce all damage that AC couldn't remove. However since the incoming damage from magic was so great most people simply abandoned it. Tanking was near impossible. Despite high PRR and AC heavy armor builds still took grievous damage while ranged evasion builds evaded incoming magic damage and avoided physical completely.

Prr did very little before armor up. The way the formula worked, and the amounts available, a toon that was absolutely maxed out back then was about the equivalent of somebody with 30-40 prr now.

Mrr isn't being removed. People who are using armor will simply have less. My now tr'd shiradi caster had 3 paladin levels, and his mrr was somewhere around 125, so he would still have about 70? after these changes. When my shield paladin was in full tank mode, he had much more mrr than that. When was mrr added to sheltering? I don't think it was there when armor up first debuted, at least not on the augments. Mrr is so strong right now, that for the most part i don't even bother with elemental absorption items. Those things should have a use.

I'm really not seeing less melee toons. I'm seeing a lot less casters, unless you count bards and warlocks. Archers seem to be fairly rare these days.

[patang01]

Prr did very little before armor up. The way the formula worked, and the amounts available, a toon that was absolutely maxed out back then was about the equivalent of somebody with 30-40 prr now.

Mrr isn't being removed. People who are using armor will simply have less. My now tr'd shiradi caster had 3 paladin levels, and his mrr was somewhere around 125, so he would still have about 70? after these changes. When my shield paladin was in full tank mode, he had much more mrr than that. When was mrr added to sheltering? I don't think it was there when armor up first debuted, at least not on the augments. Mrr is so strong right now, that for the most part i don't even bother with elemental absorption items. Those things should have a use.

I'm really not seeing less melee toons. I'm seeing a lot less casters, unless you count bards and warlocks. Archers seem to be fairly rare these days.

You're not seeing less melee toons exactly because of armor up. Sliding it back will reverse it. After this change you'll see more archers again. It's the path of least resistance.

What you will see is more people going sword and board with heavy armor - possibly the few rare fighter splashes with more armor feats and shield. And much less of the 2 weapon handed and 2 weapon fighter melee with heavy armor. That's just the nature of drastic changes. There's no one to sponge heal you anymore and running in circles pot healing yourself is not going to make for a good experience.

[Ozymandias]

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Rather than adding more feats(or in addition to?), why not modify the existing fighter feats to make them more worthwhile - namely Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization and Superior Weapon Focus. Currently they offer very little in comparison to class abilities for other classes. Those should be the standby feats that differentiate fighters from other classes but also allow fighters to have plenty of other options. Why not add increasing and stacking tactics/power/damage and PRR/MRR boosts to those feats to represent the fighters general combat effectiveness. To me, that sequence of feats are what every fighter should take at least once.

Numbers are for concept rather than a recommendation:
Weapon Specialization - +2 Damage, +2 Melee/Ranged Power, +1 Tactics, +2 PRR/MRR
Greater Weapon Focus - +1 Hit, +4 Melee/Ranged Power, +2 Tactics, +4 PRR/MRR
Greater Weapon Specialization - +4 Damage, +6 Melee/Ranged Power, +3 Tactics, +6 PRR/MRR
Superior Weapon Focus - +1 Hit, +8 Melee/Ranged Power, +4 Tactics, +8 PRR/MRR
Could also add a Superior Weapon Specialization with Fighter level 20 required . . .

A Fighter could spend 15 feats for Focus, Spec, Grt Focus, Grt Spec and Sup Focus on (say) Ranged, Piercing and Slashing and get the following:
Ranged/Piercing/Slashing Hit - +2 each (or remove this completely as it's pretty much a waste)
Ranged/Piercing/Slashing Damage - +6 each
Ranged Power - +20
Melee Power - +40
Tactics - +30
PRR/MRR - +60

Again, numbers are just for illustration - not proposals. Another option if there is concern about all fighters just taking a ton of these feats would be to not have the types stack (Piercing, Slashing, etc).

Additional abilities that either Fighters or Kensai in particular could use:
Ability to use Tactical Feats with Ranged attacks
Tactics timer reduction abilities
Doublestrike/Doubleshot boost rather than attack boost

[CThruTheEgo]

Because it's a RATE OF FIRE issue, not a 1:1 comparison.
Lets say a repeater is shooting ~150 bolts per minute, versus a bow shooting ~80 arrows per minute.
Lets also assume 60% doubleshot, just for an arbitrary number.
In its current state, over the course of one minute, you could expect to get ~240 hits with the repeater, versus ~128 for the bow.
Drop the repeater to its intended 1/3 doubleshot rate, and you get a (slightly) more reasonable ~180 hits, versus the bow's ~128.
This is certainly needed to balance the scales somewhat, especially in light of archers soon losing their great shotcount equalizers, Manyshot/10K, from their current forms.

Do you have any actual data to back that up with, rather than speculation about their rates of fire? The repeater has a long animation for reloading, which the bow does not, so I'm not so sure it's that big of a discrepancy. I have never done any rate of fire testing for ranged options, so I honestly don't know. But you're post (and the numbers you provide) sounds more like speculation rather than actual data.

EDIT: I'm willing to concede the point if that's what it is, but you're "let's say" example doesn't really convince me.

[cru121]

Our current measure of melee effectiveness is Swashbuckler.

I just want to mention that Swashbuckler receives a significant nerf with these changes.

* Reduced crit threat range for named weapons with expanded threat range
* Reduced crit threat range for most swashbucklable weapons (Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger, Light Mace, Light Hammer, Kama, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer, Handaxe, Light Pick) (Essentially all except Rapier and Kukri are nerfed)
* Reduced crit threat range from Exploit Weakness (atm gives double benefit with Keen/ICrit)
* (and if running in DC) Reduced crit threat range from Celestial Champion

Additionally, they lose 10 MRR from Light Armor; PRR remains approx the same (depending on BAB).

So while your aim seems to be to bring everyone into the range of swashbucklers, you nerf bards. Just saying. WAI?

[Furelli]

Personally in general I have no problems with nerfs. I'm looking at the changes and seeing Paladins being reined in. I'd like to see Monk splashes get a little kick in the teeth too.
My only real niggle is the armour changes, and frankly my reaction is: Why do you not want characters in medium armour?
Please consider some inherent MRR for medium and heavy armour or adding some general armour feats (a la the fighter only ones) giving a bonus to PRR and MRR for medium armour.

Furelli

[hit_fido]

Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

Reading the wiki re: MRR, there's a note that "proficiency not needed" re: gaining MRR from armor.

Obviously if you remove the inherent MRR from armor, it's moot, but maybe that is another change you should make first, before removing the armor-based MRR: require armor proficiency. That should make it harder again for certain builds to merely reduce ASF and still get the MRR benefits from wearing heavy armor.

[BigErkyKid]

OK, so I am going to try to be as straightforward as possible.

The original problem: IC stacking with class based crit enhancers created a huge imbalance between the classes that had said crit enhancers and the rest.

Your solution: IC no longer stacks; however, certain weapons get a special status (instead of +1, +2 or +3).

The problem with your solution: this nerfs some legitimate builds that did not use crit enhancers and does not reduce the imbalance of power between crit and crit-less classes. In some classes, it increases it and in most others it remains the same.

Examples: This examples are meant to be a reflection of the current meta, not simply random numbers.

THF in LD

It is well known that the to-go weapon for classes without inherent crit enhancers in LD is the maul. The reason, of course, is pulverizer. Compare the crit profiles of a paladin and a class without crit enhancers pre and post changes:

Pre changes:
Paladin with falchion - 18-20/x2 -(HS)-> 17-20/x3 -(IC)>13-20/x3
Other class with maul - 20/x3 -(Pulv)->19-29/x3 /(IC)>17-20/x3
Post changes:
Paladin with falchion - 18-20/x2 -(HS)-> 17-20/x3 -(IC)>14-20/x3
Other class with maul - 20/x3 -(Pulv)->19-29/x3 /(IC)>18-20/x3

Damage for a 60 damage modifier and 25 seeker.

Pre changes: Paladin is 144.625/103.425=40% superior to the other class.
Paladin with falchion - (5.5+60)*1*(11/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(8/20)=144.625
Other class with maul - (5.5+60)*1*(15/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(4/20)=103.425
Post changes: Paladin is 134.325/93.125=44% superior to the other class
Paladin with falchion - (5.5+60)*1*(12/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(7/20)=134.325
Other class with maul - (5.5+60)*1*(16/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(3/20)=93.125

Balanced is now WORSE than what we have right now.

SWF in LD

Pitch a bard with a rapier vs a another class with a kophesh.
Pre changes:
Bard with rapier - 18-20/x2 -(SB)-> 18-20/x3 -(IC)>15-20/x3
Other class with kopesh - 19-20/x3 -(IC)->17-20/x3
Post changes:
Bard with rapier - 18-20/x2 -(SB)-> 18-20/x3 -(IC)>15-20/x3
Other class with kopesh - 19-20/x3 -(IC)->17-20/x3

EDITED: Balance remains the same.

TWF in LD

Use a ranger vs any other class using kopeshes.
Pre changes
- Ranger: 19-20/x3 -(DW+tempest)-> 18-20/x4 -(IC)-> 15-20/x4.
- Other: 19-20/x3 -(IC)-> 17-20/x3.
Post changes
- Ranger: 19-20/x3 -(DW+tempest)-> 18-20/x4 -(IC)-> 16-20/x4.
- Other: 20/x3 -(IC)-> 17-20/x3.

Damage for a 60 damage modifier and 25 seeker.

Pre changes: Ranger is 151.175/103.425=46% superior to the other class.
Ranger - (5.5+60)*1*(13/20)+(5.5+60+25)*4*(6/20)=151.175
Other class with kopeshes - (5.5+60)*1*(15/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(4/20)=103.425
Post changes: Ranger is 134.325/93.125=30% superior to the other class
Ranger with kopeshes - (5.5+60)*1*(12/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(7/20)=134.325
Other class with kopeshes - (5.5+60)*1*(15/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(4/20)=103.425

EDITED for mistake: Balanced IMPROVED.

CONCLUSION: You INCREASED imbalance in some cases and kept it THE SAME in others. In some other cases balance IMPROVED. Barring some mistake in my numbers (it had some!) the proposed changes do NOT accomplish the objectives you mentioned in ALL cases..

[FranOhmsford]

Use a ranger vs any other class using kopeshes.
Pre changes
- Ranger: 19-20/x3 -(DW+tempest)-> 18-20/x4 -(IC)-> 15-20/x4.
- Other: 19-20/x3 -(IC)-> 17-20/x3.
Post changes
- Ranger: 19-20/x3 -(DW+tempest)-> 18-20/x4 -(IC)-> 16-20/x4.
- Other: 20/x3 -(IC)-> 18-20/x3.

Damage for a 60 damage modifier and 25 seeker.

Pre changes: Ranger is 151.175/103.425=46% superior to the other class.
Ranger - (5.5+60)*1*(13/20)+(5.5+60+25)*4*(6/20)=151.175
Other class with kopeshes - (5.5+60)*1*(15/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(4/20)=103.425
Post changes: Ranger is 134.325/93.125=44% superior to the other class
Ranger with kopeshes - (5.5+60)*1*(12/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(7/20)=134.325
Other class with kopeshes - (5.5+60)*1*(16/20)+(5.5+60+25)*3*(3/20)=93.125

Balanced is now THE SAME than what we have right now.

CONCLUSION: You INCREASED imbalance in some cases and kept it THE SAME in others. Barring some mistake in my numbers the proposed changes do NOT accomplish the objectives you mentioned.

Uh....Hate to burst your bubble there but 46% better before and 44% better after is not the same!

[Ellihor]

He's saying that people pick path of least resistance. Why gear up to be good at PRR and mediocre MRR when you can more easily gear up to be mediocre in PRR and great at evasion? That is how it was prior to armor up.

You could invest all you wanted in PRR but that means squat when an evasion build can evade most magic damage and heavy armor users soaks it. This is the exact experience people had prior to armor up. Do you honestly think that reversing armor up will somehow leave the situation different?

The pure experience from before that taking more magic damage that you can't mitigate through pittance of healing will make people move towards evasion again. That is what happened from MOTU up until armor up. Each update had fewer and fewer people play heavy armor builds.

The point is, now you have to choose. I don't see, with these changes, barbs and fighters splashing rogue to use evasion. Even if they do, taht's a hard choice. If you have to think hard about one decision, that means it is balanced. You are saying like the only thing you had to give up to make evasion work was PRR.

Yes, I honestly think these change will not take us to the same level we were before. 15% more magical damage is not going to break any build.

Right now it's just eveyone in heavy armor. After the changes you have to choose. And guess what, most people will stay on heavy armor.

[FranOhmsford]

The point is, now you have to choose. I don't see, with these changes, barbs and fighters splashing rogue to use evasion. Even if they do, taht's a hard choice. If you have to think hard about one decision, that means it is balanced. You are saying like the only thing you had to give up to make evasion work was PRR.

Yes, I honestly think these change will not take us to the same level we were before. 15% more magical damage is not going to break any build.

Right now it's just eveyone in heavy armor. After the changes you have to choose. And guess what, most people will stay on heavy armor.

Splashing Rogue has NEVER been a Hard Choice!

It's the easiest Choice in the game when it comes to Splashing!

Do I want to be able to do Traps or not?

Simple!

[BigErkyKid]

Uh....Hate to burst your bubble there but 46% better before and 44% better after is not the same!

Oh dear, really going to fight over 2%? is that the only take away from my post?

[changelingamuck]

Dialing back the leading culprits of power creep really needed to happen. So, I think these changes are great overall. Some of my characters will have their power reduced, but guess what? That's a good thing for the long-term health of the game.

Listening to players' thoughtful suggestions for minor adjustments to these planned changes is fine, of course. However, please don't reflexively back away from power creep reductions due to the whining of vocal 'forum lobbyists'. The longer-term player retention benefits of having a more balanced game far outweigh any shorter-term losses of a number of more cranky players throwing down their toys temporarily so they can go pout. Most of them will blow off their steam anyways and come back once they realize that the grown-ups haven't caved in to their foot-stomping.

My only suggestion is to go ahead and reduce the effectiveness of coup-de-grace now. It's necessary and I think it's best to get as many of these power creep reductions out at the same time as possible.