Monchers after the AA pass

[daniel7]

Is it safe to say that after the AA changes go live all Monchers will be Elf (half elf or sun elf) 12rng/6mnk/2X?

Elf - Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger, level 20 elf):
Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"

12 Ranger - Advanced Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die. +10 Positive Spell Power. You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with your equipped weapons. (This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed). Your attacks now bypass 10% fortification

6 Monk - Ten Thousand Stars

2 X

What would you do for that 2 X?

-2 more Ranger for Cure Serious
-2 fighter for feats and Kensei
-1 or 2 rogue or articifer for skills
-1 or 2 cleric with Morninglord for AA, Rejuvenation of Dawn, INT for Harper, start at 15
-2 paladin for Divine Grace

[Spekdah_NZ]

My moncher has been parked for while, but I thinking the same thing. I was also looking at 6 monk / 5 or 6 ranger and X. But X is proving hard to identify as a replacement for the threat range you get in DWS for 12 ranger levels.

As for the splashes, the paladin and cleric also give you access to divine might if going down that path.
You could also splash 1 wizard for free metamagic, was looking at wiz/sorc splashes for boosting elemental SP, but it's coming up limp.

My only other path is dropping monk! And going barb/bard/ranger instead, keeping 6 ranger for the free ranged feats, still crafting that.

But yeah, the easy migration button at the moment is to trade 6 monk levels for 6 ranger levels.

[mikarddo]

If you are going Elf rather than halfling anyway why not simply go 14 pally / 6 monk with the Plonkcher? Holy Sword seems pretty competitive still though I admit I havent gone over all the numbers in details.

Could you detail why you think the 12 rng/6mnk/2pal would be better than the Plonkcher?

[Spekdah_NZ]

Yeah 14 pally/6 monk is the other obvious choice. Personally I am nervous of pending holy sword changes, but whos knows when. 14 pally suits a mechanic better, at least you can switch to heavy armour if you want to.

Waiting for Lam to open to test stuff. To stay halfling was going to check out ranger 18/monk 2, since adept of forms isn't autogranted at 6 monk levels, have to take that and master of forms as feats but have feats to spare.

[Saekee]

If you are going Elf rather than halfling anyway why not simply go 14 pally / 6 monk with the Plonkcher? Holy Sword seems pretty competitive still though I admit I havent gone over all the numbers in details.

Could you detail why you think the 12 rng/6mnk/2pal would be better than the Plonkcher?

I stopped following the AA discussion but the HUGE advantage Pally has, amongst others, is that holy sword does not cost precious AP. If one plans to go up the whole elven AA tree, that is a heavy investment.
Deepwood has all the best active shots though, but then again maybe they have added some fancy ones to AA? And monks lack them in their trees for ranged. Maybe someday, if monks are updated...

I was playing a monk/rogue/ranger mix and monk/rogue/fighter elf, both as dex based throwers/manyshot. On both of them, the throwing attacks seemed more reliable, faster and effective. I stopped using manyshot after a while and enjoyed the boosts from the offhand weapon for thrower, which can eventually be a ToEE set item while using TF for mainhand=win 20+ ranged power bonus while giving up nothing.

[daniel7]

If you are going Elf rather than halfling anyway why not simply go 14 pally / 6 monk with the Plonkcher? Holy Sword seems pretty competitive still though I admit I havent gone over all the numbers in details.

Could you detail why you think the 12 rng/6mnk/2pal would be better than the Plonkcher?

I think that of all of the 12rng/6mnk/2X possibilities, 2 Paladin is one of the weaker ones. You get Divine Grace but you're already stretching your stats thin. You don't get Paladin PRR or Divine Might.

I personally don't care for 14pal/6mnk because it's hard to fit in all the feats I want. All the builds I saw couldn't fit in Quicken and Empower Heal, often had heroic feats taken past level 20, and didn't utilize DM because they were DEX builds. Which build do you use?

[Jiirix]

I took 2 rogue for traps. Search and spot are class skills for rangers and with 12 ranger levels you have enough skillpoints to max. traps and locks too.

[daniel7]

I took 2 rogue for traps. Search and spot are class skills for rangers and with 12 ranger levels you have enough skillpoints to max. traps and locks too.

I expect some 12rng/6mnk/2rog builds will have a decent INT for Know the Angles, some might even dump DEX and skip Combat Archery and use INT for damage. Might be a decent build for some Morninglords that are still holding on to a +20 heart of wood.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Well the big balance changes are finally happening.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...st#post5703203

Bye bye paladin mechanic/AA, and the 2 pally splash.

[Avaran]

If you are going Elf rather than halfling anyway why not simply go 14 pally / 6 monk with the Plonkcher? Holy Sword seems pretty competitive still though I admit I havent gone over all the numbers in details.

Could you detail why you think the 12 rng/6mnk/2pal would be better than the Plonkcher?

Holy sword no long will apply to Ranged weapons... Monk for 10k stars is still valid though...

[mikarddo]

Holy sword no long will apply to Ranged weapons... Monk for 10k stars is still valid though...

Aye, that change was announced after I posted. The 12 monk version is set to get better during 10k than the 6 monk version now though and the crit range enhancement lost half its value. So, more things to consider.

[Avaran]

So what do we think the best Archer build will be?

[mikarddo]

I wonder - will it still be worth building for wisdom or will it be better to simply add more str/dex/int whichever is your to-dmg stat?

Each point of wisdom will be adding 1 ranged power during 10k stars but it will NOT be adding more arrows at all and thus number of procs, on-hit effects, vorpals etc will be the same regardless of wisdom. This should make it easy to compare the extra ranged power during 10k stars to the extra damage always as both affect only the actual arrow damage not procs etc.

Lets review the difference between 58 and 60 wisdom assuming 29% doubleshot (ship, epl, feat and quiver) and 45 ranged power (level 28, fotw and some gear) on a 12 level monk using Tensors during Manyshot for 28 BAB. (thats roughly my current build).

58 wisdom:
MS = 20 sec * 2.41 arrows/sec * 2.57 ranged power = 123.9
10k = 60 sec * 1.89 arrows/sec * 2.03 ranged power = 230.2
Nothing = 40 sec * 1.29 arrows/sec * 1.45 ranged power = 74.8
Total 428.9

60 wisdom:
MS = 20 sec * 2.41 arrows/sec * 2.57 ranged power = 123.9
10k = 60 sec * 1.89 arrows/sec * 2.05 ranged power = 232.5
Nothing = 40 sec * 1.29 arrows/sec * 1.45 ranged power = 74.8
Total 431.9

The gain from those 2 wisdom is thus 0.7% in damage.

If you instead add +2 to str (or whatever your to-dmg stat is) you get +1 damage to each hit. If your normal hit before applying ranged power, crits etc is below 140 then thats more than 0.7% gained. As far as I can tell my normal hit excluding ranged power, crits etc is more like 100 so +1 damage is a gain of 1.0% compared to wisdom giving 0.7%.

Am I overlooking something here or can it really be that building for wisdom is inferior for damage? (thats ignoring all the other effects from the stats, in particular the DC arrows from AA which I assume will only hit on a 1 on EE anyway).

[unbongwah]

Well the big balance changes are finally happening.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...st#post5703203

Bye bye paladin mechanic/AA, and the 2 pally splash.

Turbine has changed their mind about nerfing Holy Sword on ranged weapons: "Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons." Sounds like the nerfs to TWF and S&B pallies are still in place, though.

So pal 14 / monk 6 AA isn't dead (yet). The question is: is the pally monkcher better than rgr 12 / monk 6 / <??> 2 builds will be? Both can still get +1 crit range & multiplier, although you have to spend a lot of APs in the latter: 14 APs elf or HE, 41 APs racial AA, 21 APs DWS = 76 APs, so not a lot of wiggle room. You can either max out Killer for the extra Doubleshot; or you can splash cleric / FvS for Div Might. My hunch is Doubleshot will be more valuable once the penalties from MS/10K go away, but that basically means you can't boost your DPS via Div Might and/or Know the Angles - not enough APs. You also don't have enough APs for Ninja Shadow Form, which is unfortunate. But the upside is the various DPS perks in DWS: Sniper Shot, extra PBS range & ranged SAs, extra FE dmg, etc.

[pelaaja]

I took 2 rogue for traps also. Might as well use the high skill points to use with rogue to disable traps

Other options:

- I have enough feats that I don't need 2 fighter (as of now I even think I have too much, as I took Shot on the Run). However getting another way to get passive ki generation is neat.
- I have no intentions to invest into paladin. I need my points in elsewhere, not for CHA.
- 2 wizard might've been an option for more SP and extra feat for, say, quicken (so that I could pick up empower healing later), and Shield SLA is always neat
- 2 Arti might've been an option, too, but the spells wouldn't scale that well. However you'd get a dog to pull levers and possibly some neat enhancements like wand mastery
- 2 more levels for ranger is an option for that Cure Serious Wounds or FoM.
- 2 warlock MIGHT be an option simply for the cheap 6 ranged power, as well as quite cheap PRR.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Another option is to simply go elf 20 or 18 monk and maximise 10K starts DS, which would give +100 or +90 doubleshot.
You can still get 6th core AA for another 20 doubleshot and t5 abilities. You get the three form feats free. You lose DWS threat range anyway unless you keep 12 ranger levels. Issue is feats, 6 ranger gives;
* bow strength (1)
* rapid shot (2)
* precise (4)
* manyshot (6)

None of those are martial arts feats which you end up using to get precision, 10K and zen archery. Still need PBS, IC:ranged and IPS in heroic leveling leaving CA and OC for Level 21 and 24. Doable and gives some AP options since DWS ain't available.

As previosuly mentioned I am also still torn on a damage stat, grabbing 2 ranger lets you get impr. weap finisess from DWS to use DEX and there is always harper for going INT.

Decisions decisions.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Looking at trying to get more DS through 10K (+90), still get t5 and 6th core from AA. Lose -1 threat from DWS and activated attacks like sniper shot and aimed shot.

monk18-ranger2
18/2 Monk/Ranger
Lawful Neutral Elf


Level Order

1. Ranger . . . . .6. Monk. . . . . .11. Monk . . . . . 16. Monk
2. Ranger . . . . .7. Monk. . . . . .12. Monk . . . . . 17. Monk
3. Monk . . . . . .8. Monk. . . . . .13. Monk . . . . . 18. Monk
4. Monk . . . . . .9. Monk. . . . . .14. Monk . . . . . 19. Monk
5. Monk . . . . . 10. Monk. . . . . .15. Monk . . . . . 20. Monk


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt. . .Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .9 . . . +5. . . .4: WIS
Dexterity . . . 16 . . . +5. . . .8: WIS
Constitution. . 14 . . . +5. . . 12: WIS
Intelligence. . 14 . . . +4. . . 16: WIS
Wisdom. . . . . 17 . . . +5. . . 20: WIS
Charisma. . . . .8 . . . +5. . . 24: WIS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: WIS

Feats

.1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
.3. . . . : Precise Shot
.3 Monk . : Precision
.4 Monk . : Zen Archery
.5 Monk . : Path of Harmonious Balance
.6. . . . : Dodge
.8 Monk . : Ten Thousand Stars
.9. . . . : Manyshot
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Ranged
15. . . . : Improved Precise Shot
18. . . . : Weapon Focus: Ranged
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Combat Archery
26 Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Positive
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Doubleshot

* Feats at 6 and 18 just placeholders

[mikarddo]

Looking at trying to get more DS through 10K (+90), still get t5 and 6th core from AA. Lose -1 threat from DWS and activated attacks like sniper shot and aimed shot.

monk18-ranger2
18/2 Monk/Ranger
Lawful Neutral Elf

Level Order

1. Ranger . . . . .6. Monk. . . . . .11. Monk . . . . . 16. Monk
2. Ranger . . . . .7. Monk. . . . . .12. Monk . . . . . 17. Monk
3. Monk . . . . . .8. Monk. . . . . .13. Monk . . . . . 18. Monk
4. Monk . . . . . .9. Monk. . . . . .14. Monk . . . . . 19. Monk
5. Monk . . . . . 10. Monk. . . . . .15. Monk . . . . . 20. Monk


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt. . .Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .9 . . . +5. . . .4: WIS
Dexterity . . . 16 . . . +5. . . .8: WIS
Constitution. . 14 . . . +5. . . 12: WIS
Intelligence. . 14 . . . +4. . . 16: WIS
Wisdom. . . . . 17 . . . +5. . . 20: WIS
Charisma. . . . .8 . . . +5. . . 24: WIS
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: WIS

Feats

.1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
.3. . . . : Precise Shot
.3 Monk . : Precision
.4 Monk . : Zen Archery
.5 Monk . : Path of Harmonious Balance
.6. . . . : Dodge
.8 Monk . : Ten Thousand Stars
.9. . . . : Manyshot
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Ranged
15. . . . : Improved Precise Shot
18. . . . : Weapon Focus: Ranged
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Combat Archery
26 Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Positive
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Doubleshot

* Feats at 6 and 18 just placeholders

You are missing Rapid Shot from level 2 Ranger.

However, I dont think Ranger 2 gives enough - I would consider Ftr 1 (a feat) and maybe Wiz 1 (quicken), or 2 more monk levels (+10% DS during 10k though it may not be possible to fit the feats with a 20 mnk due to only getting 0.75 bab at level 1) or 2 Paladin levels (+8 saves) instead. Do you find that you get enough from the 2 ranger levels?

Also, why +wis as main stat? I posted earlier in this thread showing that +dex is probably better damage than +wis now - or do you disagree / see a mistake in my calculations?

Most of all I need to test if maximize adds to spellpower for imbues before I figure out what I think will be a good build. If it does 1 Wiz for Maximize could be of very good use.

[unbongwah]

Looking at trying to get more DS through 10K (+90), still get t5 and 6th core from AA. Lose -1 threat from DWS and activated attacks like sniper shot and aimed shot.

monk18-ranger2

If you're not going pure monkcher, I would probably do monk 16 / rgr 4; apart from free Prec Shot and Ram's Might, that grants you access to tier-4 DWS, namely Killer.

Pure monk: 10K Stars grants 20 * 5 = +100% doubleshot half the time (so effectively +50% doubleshot)
Monk 16 / rgr 4: 10K Stars is 16 * 5 = +80% doubleshot half the time (+40% avg DS) while Killer grants a persistent +20% doubleshot while fully charged

So the 16/4 split can hit +10% avg doubleshot over pure monk (+15% over 18/2 split) when the stars align. And since Killer will apply to Manyshot, it's more valuable than it was before. Downside is AP cost: 14 APs racial + 41 APs AA + 23 APs DWS = 78 APs.

A more heavily-MCed monkcher will be about trading extra DS from 10K for other abilities, like Sniper Shot or adding trap skills or splashing pal for Div Grace (+8 to saves will still be a lot) or whatever.

[mikarddo]

If you're not going pure monkcher

Is it even possible to fit in the feats on a pure monkcher (completionist)?
- Precision, Zen Archery and 10k could be taken as the monk feats, except that none of them can be taken at level 1 due to prereqs, so one of those have to be taken with a normal feat.
- PBS, Rapid Shot, Precision, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot and IC: Ranged are very much needed.
So, thats 7 normal feats and 2 monk feats used. Possible for someone who does not take the Completionist feat but not for someone that wants that feat taken.

Also, going from 18 mnk to 16 mnk loses the GM feat as well as some runspeed in addition to the DS during 10k so it does come at a cost.

/mourn halfling monkchers.