Alignments - why no evil alignments?

[Zavina]

So I was thinking, why aren't there any evil alignments?

[lifestaker]

tell an evil character to run WW for you. He is gone 30 minutes and comes back says that everyone is dead and demands reward. The entire time was actually in the PVP pit having a beer.

[Zavina]

tell an evil character to run WW for you. He is gone 30 minutes and comes back says that everyone is dead and demands reward. The entire time was actually in the PVP pit having a beer.

Sounds like normal, but that didn't answer my question.

We have Good & Neutral, so why no evil?

As an example, don't you find it ludicrous that all player Pale Masters you meet are Good/Neutral and evil is really reserved for the Zhentarim?

[lifestaker]

See don't get me wrong I think Evil would be a great thing to have, but they (turbine) have collectively said that they do not intend to let people play evil characters. I think this is more a lore stance, though with more adds to the game and need to have more for the players, it may be an option.

Killing something evil does not make you good, but hard for people to think otherwise some times. ToD is a good example of evil vs evil, with good coming in to help evil, but for good reasons. Not to hard to get behind someone evil doing something good for personal reasons that may in themselves be evil.

[FranOhmsford]

Sounds like normal, but that didn't answer my question.

We have Good & Neutral, so why no evil?

Because this game is based on D&D and Evil Alignments are for the bad guys NOT the Player Characters! {Gygax himself stated that!}.

As an example, don't you find it ludicrous that all player Pale Masters you meet are Good/Neutral and evil is really reserved for the Zhentarim?

Yes I do find it ridiculous!

Just as I find Ravager and Great Old One/Fiend Pact Warlocks ridiculous too!

Those are NOT PC Classes!

Pale Master is an Evil Class for NPCs {Mainly Archvillains of the Campaign} NOT for Players!

If Archmage and EK were any good I'd never play a PM! And in fact I don't actually have a PM atm anyway! If Necro Archmage ever becomes viable I'll never play a PM again! {I actually like Necromancers in PnP but mine are always Undead SLAYERS!

My Barbs are OS and FB only using low tier enhancements from Ravager!
I will never play a Warlock that isn't Fey!

[FranOhmsford]

See don't get me wrong I think Evil would be a great thing to have, but they (turbine) have collectively said that they do not intend to let people play evil characters. I think this is more a lore stance, though with more adds to the game and need to have more for the players, it may be an option.

Turbine have broken their own Lore already by introducing first Pale Master then Ravager and finally Fiend/Old One Pact Warlocks into the game as Player Character Prestiges!

Alignment in DDO is meaningless other than as a way to stop certain classes from multi-classing!

[lifestaker]

Turbine have broken their own Lore already by introducing first Pale Master then Ravager and finally Fiend/Old One Pact Warlocks into the game as Player Character Prestiges!

Alignment in DDO is meaningless other than as a way to stop certain classes from multi-classing!

Old one warlocks are just non lawful. The fact of playing one step in alignment is something that has always been there.

Evil gods will honor evil and neutral characters, the same a chaotic one will honor neutral and chaotic. Fiend and Old one works in that regards.
Being consumed by the heat of battle and enjoying killing is the ravager way of life, but a pally kills the same. The difference being the ravager smiles in joy, as the pally preys for his actions. Guess this goes more along the normal issues of peoples mindsets in that doing wrong is okay if you ask forgiveness, but could also be okay just for not seeing it as wrong.

Evil does not have to be this dark creature that is all consuming and is a twisted form of itself. But, some people refuse to think other wise. That is on them, but sorry the darkest things can look the lest evil. I guess it all goes to the propaganda that is created by those that are 'good.' Far to many people think along those lines, both in real life and in fantasy games.

[Enderoc]

Everyone is really chaotic neutral they just can not come to terms with it yet

[Bennum]

Because this game is based on D&D and Evil Alignments are for the bad guys NOT the Player Characters! {Gygax himself stated that!}.



Yes I do find it ridiculous!

Just as I find Ravager and Great Old One/Fiend Pact Warlocks ridiculous too!

Those are NOT PC Classes!

Pale Master is an Evil Class for NPCs {Mainly Archvillains of the Campaign} NOT for Players!

If Archmage and EK were any good I'd never play a PM! And in fact I don't actually have a PM atm anyway! If Necro Archmage ever becomes viable I'll never play a PM again! {I actually like Necromancers in PnP but mine are always Undead SLAYERS!

My Barbs are OS and FB only using low tier enhancements from Ravager!
I will never play a Warlock that isn't Fey!

You seem to be the opposite of me, outright unwilling to embrace the dark side. Lorewise my fiend pact warlock is chaotic evil and I consider him as such when I get brief opportunities for pseudo rp. Lorewise most of my other toons are reformed formerly evil chars now only neutral and profit oriented. That aside I do believe there can be other reasons afoot for why evil chars do "good" things, for instance aforementioned evil warlock is only doing quests on his stronger brother's orders while trying to gain enough power and leverage to usurp him.

Sorry to go all rp on you guys but that is how I see the world and it reflects on my take on this issue. Evil should be an option as should realm origin be at this point in the game.

[GeoffWatson]

So I was thinking, why aren't there any evil alignments?

There are too many ******* players already, without allowing "I was just playing my character" as an excuse.

[dunklezhan]

It's Eberron. Alignment is a matter of personal perspective, just like real life. Very few folks actually consider themselves evil. Those who do tend to revel in it and become psychopaths or serial killers, proud of the pain and hurt and death they inflict. You think Saddam or Gadaffi considered themselves to be bad guys? I bet they didn't. In Eberron, that would make them neutral at worst. The fact that good and evil were queuing up to bump them off has very little to do with their personal view of their "alignment". What about Manson - he would argue I'm sure that good and evil are just concepts invented by humanity and that he is simply free of them (which may be true but is possibly missing the point) - meaning even he might not think he was 'evil'. My point being it takes quite a special brain to think of itself as evil and accept it, and so on Eberron hardly anything is actually "evil" in alignment (at least as far as original game book is concerned. Can't speak for later revisions), and certainly not PCs.

In other DnD game worlds (e.g. FR) this is not the case: its a hard and fast 'outside judgement' based on a person's actions and personal motives.

That's why, in Eberron, which is what this game was originally, it really does make very little sense to let players choose to be 'evil' and that's how I've always rationalised it in DDO - quite apart from the fact I've seen how MMO players get when they're allowed to be 'evil'. For every player who pulls it off right, it turns another ten into contrary disruptive idiots hiding behind their "license to roleplay".

Of course, if it was really eberron, the vast majority of intelligent mobs we run into would be considered neutral or even good, for the same reasons.

And of course of course, it's not Eberron anymore. They crossed Eberron characters over into Faerun, which are two completely incompatible game worlds because of things like alignment, relative power levels, presence of higher level anything and so on. That means alignment in particular is all kinds of messed up, particularly when they bring in things like Pale Master and Ravager, which in any game world other than Eberron would absolutely be considered 'evil'. It would be impossible to play them any other way because in other game worlds alignment is tied so closely to what you actually do, not how you view yourself.

So, having mixed the two worlds, and having given us PrEs that in one of those worlds could only ever be evil, it pretty much comes down to the simple fact that now the only reason we don't have 'evil' is because Turbine say so, and because it would lead to a lot of wilful idiocy. Which I think is a large part of why Turbine say no.

"Why not trust us?" I hear people whine. Well, because the playerbase has shown over and over again that when looked at in the round it simply can't be trusted to make sensible, self-restraining choices. That should be no surprise, we are human beings after all and inherently selfish and short sighted, but here's two DDO examples:

• If exploits are possible in content or mechanic, they happen, and they happen on a large scale with the perpetrators saying things like 'if you don't want me to do this you shouldn't let me' as if that's some kind of a defense for deliberately cheesing whatever it is. (In FR terms, that's the sort of thing a neutral evil character would say).
• The playerbase gets outraged when someone is to be nerfed even where it's clearly for the good of the game. It used to be the case that 'buff up, don't nerf down' was the right design principle, and I used to advocate it, but we zoomed past the point where we needed to be rethinking the strategy and considering overall balance ages ago*

These are exactly the same mindsets underneath that would say 'why did I grief you through the whole quest? Because I'm playing evil! Says so right on my character sheet. I'm supposed to behave that way'. I mean for goodness sake, there are people here saying they feel constrained from their desires to act like horrible human beings because a selection box is unavailable. Imagine what would happen if you did make it available?

We are why we can't have nice things. For once I don't care whether the lore works or not. In this instance even the possibility that I might finally get some roleplay in this game which is, after all, based on the original roleplaying game, isn't enough.

To be clear - I'm not saying people are not capable of playing 'evil' in a way that is non-disruptive. I'm just saying that based on other games where players have felt no such alignment constraints, the bulk of folk I run into playing evil are in fact 'playing ass'. There's no need to support that with a game mechanic.

We can't be trusted with playing evil. We're inherently evil enough. So don't give it to us.



*I'm pleased by the general thrust of the devs at the moment, it seems that they have a long term balancing goal finally - we need to be patient and let them buff up all the classes, which is what they're doing, and trust that they're going to similarly buff up threat to match or nerf down what have now become common mechanics, like Melee Power, Doubleshot and so on. Will it feel like DnD anymore? No. But it hasn't since the TWF nerf, to me. But are we being patient? No. People are still complaining about their class getting left behind or, worse, this other class now being better than their current favourite. That's for good reason, the trickle feed of changes is disruptive... its just demonstrative of our species' general inability to think beyond our immediate problems or our ability to act reasonably if we feel we can get away with acting selfishly.

[UurlockYgmeov]

this should be a good weekend thread



OH and alignments really don't matter much in DDO - even so - there is no saving a damsel in distress if you are evil.

[Dendrix]

All of the above are ******** justifications.

Many players of Evil Aligned characters will intentionally sabotage the group/mission/raid and then justify it with "I'm evil, it's what I have to do"
That sabotaging of the group ruins other players fun and drives them away.
Less players = less income.

it's really that simple.

[dunklezhan]

There is no saving a damsel in distress if you are evil.

Sure there is. Its what you do with the damsel afterwards.

[cdbd3rd]

...

We can't be trusted with playing evil. We're inherently evil enough. So don't give it to us.

....

Agreed.
A very few people can pull off playing an evil alignment without destroying either a DM's campaign or the other players' enjoyment. However, the grand masses will just abuse the condition to destroy all of the above.

<@ evil saving damsels>

Sure there is. Its what you do with the damsel afterwards.

*Types. Reconsiders. Retypes*...

The Damsels of DDO...

*ReReconsiders, and just leaves it at that.*

[FranOhmsford]

*Types. Reconsiders. Retypes*...

The Damsels of DDO...

*ReReconsiders, and just leaves it at that.*

Like this Damsel you mean: http://ddowiki.com/page/Annelisa / http://ddowiki.com/page/Annelisa_Hdar?

Damsel my behind!

She was plotting with the bandits in Bounty Hunter until we showed up and she bluffed us into thinking she was a prisoner.


Or how about this Damsel: http://ddowiki.com/page/Jana?



Like Shavarath she's lost!

She's waiting for an illicit liaison with one of those Bugbears!

And here's the all time leader: http://ddowiki.com/page/Damsel_in_Distress!

Sorry no Pic on Wiki.


Yeah....Turbine are rather cynical when it comes to Damsels.

[Steve_Howe]

Pale Master is an Evil Class for NPCs {Mainly Archvillains of the Campaign} NOT for Players!

Wrong as usual.

Page 48 of Libris Mortis (D&D v3.5 book) says for Pale Masters:

"Alignment: Any nongood"

Pale Masters can be any Evil or True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Lawful Neutral.

They are just fine as PCs.

[FranOhmsford]

Creating Undead is an inherently EVIL act!

Your Pale Master may start off as neutral but the instant he creates Undead he's moved to Evil!

And as Creating Undead is the central tenet of the Prestige there is no way to justify a non-Evil Pale Master!

A non-Evil Necromancer is possible yes but a non-Evil Pale Master No! No matter what some splat book says!

[Steve_Howe]

Creating Undead is an inherently EVIL act!

Says who? You??

LOL!

Your Pale Master may start off as neutral but the instant he creates Undead he's moved to Evil!

Baloney!

And as Creating Undead is the central tenet of the Prestige there is no way to justify a non-Evil Pale Master!

Wrong...again.

A non-Evil Necromancer is possible yes but a non-Evil Pale Master No! No matter what some splat book says!

False.

[cronusdeathspell]

Can someone explain one thing to me?

I see so many arguments saying that evil-alignment PCs will cause griefing with the excuse of "I was just playing my character."

If you really believe that there are these hordes of griefers waiting to get you - where are they?

Are you seriously telling me that they had to click on a box that said Good aligned so now they're chained and stuck and playing Good?
If only that checkbox had contained an Evil alignment then they'd be free to be EEEEEVILLLL!!!!!!

That makes no sense.

If a person wants to grief you, they will play that way regardless of what the character sheet says.

Allowing evil alignment won't suddenly create trolls. Any trolls here are already hard at work trolling.