Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[CeltEireson]

Oh and I forgot to include spellpower pots too!

[Propane]

Manyshot is not a ranger specific feat and should not have any must have freebie upgrades to it that can only be had by being a ranger. Making an enhancement that upgrades it after spending AP, that's a different story.

Increase the duration of Many Shot for additional Ranger Levels.

Ranger 7-12 --> + 1 sec per level (6 sec total increase)
Ranger 13-18 --> + 2 sec per level (18 sec total increase)
Ranger 19 & 20 --> +5 sec per level (28 sec total increase)

Leave the cool down as is...



AP is a reasonable idea, low in the tree I would hope.

It is true, Manyshot is not a ranger specific feat, but it is auto-granted to Rangers.

It is not a large stretch to see how a class with an auto granted feat would gain auto granted improvements to said feat. (Dodge and Sneak attack for example).

This idea would give more levels of Rangers a needed boost compared to mulit-class builds, while not negatively affecting the other builds.

As for how what / how Manyshot is / works - that is another (important) discussion.

[blerkington]

Increase the duration of Many Shot for additional Ranger Levels.

Ranger 7-12 --> + 1 sec per level (6 sec total increase)
Ranger 13-18 --> + 2 sec per level (18 sec total increase)
Ranger 19 & 20 --> +5 sec per level (28 sec total increase)

Leave the cool down as is...

Hi,

Increasing the duration of manyshot while reducing the number of arrows per volley is another way to deal with the so-called lag problem caused by four missile pulses.

I'm still far from convinced that any such problem exists, for reasons outlined earlier in this thread. Nor do we actually have dev confirmation that it does, just it's "expensive".

Anyway, if each pulse were three missiles rather than four, and manyshot lasted 27 seconds, the number of missiles fired would be similar. Although it would make the initial pulse less powerful, it would also mean there would be two pulses which could benefit from abilities with cooldowns of between 20 and 27 seconds.

That's another possible solution which might also satisfy burst and hybrid melee/ranged types, while keeping those poor server hamsters safe too.

Thanks.

[Aletys]

No, if ddo follows the rules of dnd in this regard *and I THINK it does* the bows enhancement bonus determines TO HIT and the arrows determines the DAMAGE. I am not 100% this is the case but if it follows dnd rules that is how it works. If anyone knows for sure other wise and can cite it let me know.

I've never actually tested it, but have always been assured that they were the same bonus, so I went searching. Based on the thread below, the arrows don't add anything other than the enhancement bonus, and that does not stack with the bow bonus. Apparently they were different in 3.0, but not in 3.5 (I'm quoting the thread on this).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Mean-Anything

[LrdSlvrhnd]

True, and understood. But I think giving the "conjure arrows" some love would be, at least me, preferable than scraping it in favor of "fletching" (honestly, I think "fletching" is lacking...especially considering it's a tier 4 EN. But I digress...). Let them grow in power like "conjure bolts" do and/or give AAs a 3rd toggle stance.

Except it doesn't really matter - your bow will almost certainly be as good (or better) than the conjured arrows, unless you deliberately ignore Enhancement Bonus when Cannith Crafting to make a lower-ML bow. Additionally, there's the first AA core: "Any bow you equip gains a +1 Enhancement bonus for each arcane archer core ability you possess. (This does not stack with the bow's existing Enhancement bonus.) " So you'd end up with +6 arrows, +6 from AA, and +7 from Pinion for... +7 total.

Personally, I'd rather they work on something else than waste time changing Conjure Arrows to provide a non-stacking bonus that will almost certainly get overridden *except* in a very specific case. The only thing Conjure Bolts' increased bonus ever did for me was to make the stacks created in an Arcane ED not match the stacks created in a non-arcane ED and thus not show up when I conjured the one, hotbarred to keep an eye on the number, switched EDs, and then conjured another stack when I started getting low.

(As an aside, I always wanted Fletching to involve crafting bolts from trap parts instead of the current functionality, to provide mechanically-crafted bolts rather than arcanely-conjured ones, but with the same basic effect as Conjure Bolts/Conjure Arrows. Except you could also craft flaming bolts with Fire Trap Parts, holy bolts from Magic Trap Parts, etc. Give 'em the same 1K stack size as conjured bolts and make 'em 75% returning, a selection of bolts crafted at a trap station would've gone a long way *g* )

[Aletys]

If thats the case the solution is very simple. Just change Manyshot from 4 arrows to +250% doubleshot and 10k stars to +(100+wis)% doubleshot and let doubleshot from all sources apply always including during MS and 10k. Obviously dont cap doubleshot at 1 extra arrow.

That makes doubleshot matter for all builds and lowers the number of projectiles assuming you are correct.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the explanation, by changing Manyshot to Doubleshot, Rangers will be losing out on a whole bunch of proc's that are dependent on hits, not on damage.

So no, bad idea.

[Aletys]

I have no real interest in a mixed melee/ranged build though - I want to retain FoTW as a viable archer destiny and that means vorpals need to keep happening. If your suggestion simply added +1 or maybe +2 to vorpal range during MS / 10k it might work out. If you make FoTW weak for monkchers for example that certainly has not improved ED selection.

I don't have any monchers, but I also am not interested in a mixed melee/ranged build. This is supposed to be a tree for AA's, which are a ranged build. I shouldn't have to go to other trees to get what should be basic enhancements for my tree.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the explanation, by changing Manyshot to Doubleshot, Rangers will be losing out on a whole bunch of proc's that are dependent on hits, not on damage.

So no, bad idea.

Unless they change the procs to happen on doubleshots as well.... AND lift the artificial cap on ranged alacrity.

I don't have any monchers, but I also am not interested in a mixed melee/ranged build. This is supposed to be a tree for AA's, which are a ranged build. I shouldn't have to go to other trees to get what should be basic enhancements for my tree.

FotW is an epic destiny.

[Ykt]

Any word on the modification of Paralyzing arrow to include Intelligence and maybe Charisma in the DC calculation?

Us Harper Agents need some love.

[dontmater]

Those suggestions don't provide solutions for what we are trying to change.

~ Doubleshot should be worth taking for bow users.
~ Reducing the total number of projectiles fired.
~ Still allow for Monk/Ranger hybrids; a shared cooldown just removes this build.

Moving some of the power of bow builds out of Manyshot and into other areas such as enhancements would be a bonus.


As an aside, having 10K Stars work only with shuriken will not take away the build; it will just require a weapon swap to shuriken as part of the attack chain. We don't want to encourage constant weapon swaps as part of ongoing attack chains.

Sev~

make sure you guys have it right when great crossbows shot faster then longbows.... it seem SOO wrong.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I've never actually tested it, but have always been assured that they were the same bonus, so I went searching. Based on the thread below, the arrows don't add anything other than the enhancement bonus, and that does not stack with the bow bonus. Apparently they were different in 3.0, but not in 3.5 (I'm quoting the thread on this).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Mean-Anything

Right. Enhancement Bonus of weapon *or* ammo (highest thereof) adds to both to-hit and damage, just like melee. They're not separated. +1 Bow with +5 Arrows = +5 Bow with +1 Arrows = +5 Bow with +5 Arrows.

[Aletys]

My level 25 ranger with nothing invested in upping spellpower, either item, skills, enhancements or epic destiny , has 66 spellpower in each of acid, fire, cold and electric (22 int and guild buffs including the elemental shrines). If I was reworking him - you can add +11 skill, +15 from skill augment (or +20 from items), +4 from GH, he only has +4 int tome so can get another one there, +5 from an int item or +4 from int augment (has +2 insight item on him). So that's between 101 and 107 without too much investment. Or in other words double damage from the elemental arrow enhancements.

Its not that difficult to find items with between 100 and 150 elemental damage, or red augment with up to 138 (and most named bows have or can have red slots). That's not taking into account spellpower increases from epic destinies some of which can be twisted in. Shiradi gives a total of 25 universal spellpower, 30 fire spellpower can be twisted in from divine crusader or get +50 from divine zeal if you're in the actual destiny. or +30 to the element of your choice from draconic incarnation.

Basically if you want to you can probably hit 200 spellpower without too much trouble - so triple the base damage of your elemental arrow enhancement, so 3 x 7d8 or about 95 damage extra per shot, which I wouldn't exactly call peanuts.

An elven int based wizard using elven AA could obviously get that a good bit higher given that some mages can round around with close to 400 not including empower and maximise - speaking of which does maximize/empower count for spellpower for elemental arrows?

Bows, though 2-handed weapons, are treated as 1-handed weapons for purposes of augments. So, do I now need to carry 4 of each bow (5 if force is going to be included), one for each spellpower? Even if bows got two augments, I'd still need at least 2 of each to cover the all the elemental spellpowers. Plus one for the bow with my meteroic star? And what about bows with no augments on them? Trash them all? That is nuts. Grant the spellpower in the tree.

[FestusHood]

Any word on the modification of Paralyzing arrow to include Intelligence and maybe Charisma in the DC calculation?

Us Harper Agents need some love.

That would make intelligence builds top dps and top crowd control. No tradeoff, and i think there should be one. Also why i'm against giving wisdom to damage.

[FestusHood]

Bows, though 2-handed weapons, are treated as 1-handed weapons for purposes of augments. So, do I now need to carry 4 of each bow (5 if force is going to be included), one for each spellpower? Even if bows got two augments, I'd still need at least 2 of each to cover the all the elemental spellpowers. Plus one for the bow with my meteroic star? And what about bows with no augments on them? Trash them all? That is nuts. Grant the spellpower in the tree.

You wouldn't need to do any of that stuff. You would have the option to. I often use potency items when i don't want to hassle with optimizing individual spell powers. Optimizing everything should be more work. There is also non weapon gear that has spellpower on it.

[ComicRelief]

Except it doesn't really matter - your bow will almost certainly be as good (or better) than the conjured arrows, unless you deliberately ignore Enhancement Bonus when Cannith Crafting to make a lower-ML bow. Additionally, there's the first AA core: "Any bow you equip gains a +1 Enhancement bonus for each arcane archer core ability you possess. (This does not stack with the bow's existing Enhancement bonus.) " So you'd end up with +6 arrows, +6 from AA, and +7 from Pinion for... +7 total.

*snip*

Yeah, I actually made that same point earlier. Not exactly what I meant, but there it is anyway. Perhaps what we need is to either have the conjured arrow/bolt +'s be stacking (can make them get a stacking plus every x levels and cap out lower - so instead of getting non-stacking +6, get up to a stacking +3?), or maybe have them add to ranged power? I'm still liking the idea of a third AA stance, though. Even though I know it won't happen.

Probably.

[ComicRelief]

Right. Enhancement Bonus of weapon *or* ammo (highest thereof) adds to both to-hit and damage, just like melee. They're not separated. +1 Bow with +5 Arrows = +5 Bow with +1 Arrows = +5 Bow with +5 Arrows.

Back when I played PnP, we used the plus of the bow to count toward "to hit" and the plus of the arrow to count toward "damage". That actually makes more sense to me. (Not suggesting it be that way in DDO, I'm just sayin'...)

[Grailhawk]

Bows, though 2-handed weapons, are treated as 1-handed weapons for purposes of augments. So, do I now need to carry 4 of each bow (5 if force is going to be included), one for each spellpower? Even if bows got two augments, I'd still need at least 2 of each to cover the all the elemental spellpowers. Plus one for the bow with my meteroic star? And what about bows with no augments on them? Trash them all? That is nuts. Grant the spellpower in the tree.

Clearly you have never played a caster, even casters who get a lot more then Elemental Arrows out of elemental spell power don't max every elemental spell power (most of them at least, maybe 1% or 2% of all casters build an Elemetalist but they don't need to that is just their choice). Pic 2 to keep maxed (Force/Acid for instance) or close to maxed since augments aren't going to max a spell power. You really just want all power handed to you with no need to work don't you?

[blerkington]

Clearly you have never played a caster, even casters who get a lot more then Elemental Arrows out of elemental spell power don't max every elemental spell power (most of them at least, maybe 1% or 2% of all casters build an Elemetalist but they don't need to that is just their choice). Pic 2 to keep maxed (Force/Acid for instance) or close to maxed since augments aren't going to max a spell power. You really just want all power handed to you with no need to work don't you?

Hi,

I also think gearing for max spellpower is going to be pain for imbues.

One solution might be to work a potency item/effect in somewhere, and then have an augment on your weapon for your preferred element.

Thanks.

[maddong]

So with bab 28, 60 dex, and 49% doublestrike:
A repeater gets 60% more attacks than a bow per minute.
A shuriken elf ranger 17/monk 3 gets 97% more attacks than a bow per minute.

So arcane archers will need a new tier 5 power to improve bow alacrity or more doublestrike. Make it not work with 10k stars to help pure ranger bow users....

And is slayer arrow going to still work with repeaters and shurikens after the revamp?

[Grailhawk]

Hi,

I also think gearing for max spellpower is going to be pain for imbues.

One solution might be to work a potency item/effect in somewhere, and then have an augment on your weapon for your preferred element.

Thanks.

So his suggestion to treat bows like two handed weapons is legitimate and should be done. But saying that a Ranger will need to max out 6 types of spell power is an exaggeration at best and a lie at worst.

Devotion, Force and one Elemental is what a Ranger will need if you want to swap Force or the Elemental for Potency that can work yes there will be some gearing involved but it won't be that difficult.