Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[blerkington]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

Hi,

Not a fan of the proposed change to manyshot at all.

It seems harmful for hybrid melee/archery builds which use manyshot as a burst. Other alternatives to handling the issue of allowing rangers to choose between burst and constant damage have already been proposed in this thread.

The reduction in projectile numbers for that period will significantly reduce additional damage from sneak attack, arrow imbues, and on hit weapon effects. So not only do archers already have a comparatively low RoF outside of manyshot, that same disadvantage will now be extended to it.

As other people have already observed, a large amount of doubleshot is already available to archers. The buff to it during this new manyshot will be pretty marginal in those cases, making manyshot little more than a ranged power action boost.

No thanks.

[Lonnbeimnech]

If you are going forward with this many shot nerf/buff can we maybe add some ranged alacrity to its duration so you can still notice an increase in dps while its up?

[lizrex]

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

People have made elf achane archer in the past to access the dex to damage in tier 5, no there is no need because you can get it in teir two deepwood sniper now with any class.

[losian2]

the manyshot change is lame, manyshot gets hit while 10k stars stays about the same.. LAME

This is exactly the wrong way and mindset to balance anything, and why devs ignore some played feedback. I'm not trying to be mean, but come on.. what value does this have?

10k Stars will likely be changed and adjusted, as the devs see fit, when monk gets its turn. That is not now. Now is manyshot. It is being adjusted for the current game and design while also *looking forward.* That's how you design things. You don't do it with a "WELL THEY HAVE A THING AND MY THING CHANGED SO THEIRS NEEDS TO BE WORSE TOO" mindset. That's just bad game design.

[Firewall]

Don't forget to mention you are taking advantage of a bugged feature with shurikens, specifically Shadowstar, which allows Pure Monks in Divine Crusader to have a 5-20 critical threat range because of Keen causing all crit threat range modifiers to be doubled. You're making this argument because you rely on lots of crits for Ninja Spy poison damage which applied full damage on every crit at 20 stacks.

This argument is not useful for any thrower builds that are not pure monks. In fact, a build without 10k and high SA damage loves the boost to RP, like my builds. I hope the devs won't rebalance these things on the basis of one build that is pure monk and takes advantage of a game bug with keen in DC.

You know, since we're trying to constructively advance the conversation here.

Actually i'm talking constructively. And pure monk throwers getting nerfed by this change is a fact. I use Thunderforged Tier 3 shuriken with my build all the time and not Shadowstar. As people who read my posts on the forum can see i always state that don't make use of bugs and want bugs and incorrect descriptions to be fixed so that all people have the same chances to build the builds they like. That is why i added my known thrower bugs to Tilomeres list in his Critzilla thread.

Even with the bug you state i doubt this can be better than Mortal Fear with as many attacks as throwers got so far. I hope you already have bug reported it and it will be fixed soon. If Shadowstar is bugged then the bug with Shadowstar should be fixed but this should not in any way be a reason to balance builds or discuss future changes to 10k stars.

Since the devs stated that they want the power of builds with 10k stars to stay roughly the same pure monk shuriken throwers have to be considered also. And if it is implemented like proposed this is a big nerf to them and less so to other builds.

60 Wis and 30 ranged power for 30 seconds comes down to half of that for one minute. With no sources for Doubleshot in monk trees and low Sneak Attack damage this is really not good enough. And remember that we are talking about a 6th level Monk-exclusive feat, which should benefit monks in the first place.

[Qhualor]

If you are going forward with this many shot nerf/buff can we maybe add some ranged alacrity to its duration so you can still notice an increase in dps while its up?

I thought about this and was in the middle of posting my suggestion of adding alacrity to AA, but deleted it. the reason why is because alacrity and speed/haste are enhancement bonuses thus doesn't stack. if alacrity were to be given its own bonus type stacking with haste/speed items than it would have to be small. could be too powerful with Manyshot and 10k. since speed items are a must item to equip on characters, alacrity really is already covered. I think it would be better to have an alacrity enhancement boost much like haste boost enhancements, but not stack with it. however, do you replace Attack Boost or Energy Resistance Boost?

[Requiro]

snip

I don’t know what think about these changes. I see only waste of great potential… Let’s see details:

Elemental Arrow – good improvement, that is what AA needs. If I understand this correctly: You can have:

• +7d8 elemental damage if you choice one type or less if you want diversity to minimum of 4d8 of each elemental. No changes to Tier 5, but scales with Spell Power.
• Force arrows gets maximum of 4d8 force damage, with 4 Tiers of Elemental Arrow.

If it’s true, then I strongly recommended, some improvement to Tier 5, and Force Arrows. Something like :

• Tier 5: Additional Vorpal damage (+4d8?)
• Force Arrows: Only 2 ranks, 1 AP each.
  
  • 1st: 1d8 Force damage + Ghost Touch ability
  • 2nd: Additional Force Criticals + Ghostbane I ability.

Shadow Arrows – boring but very good improvement. With DWS, there is no need for 14 pally anymore.

DC Based Arrow Stances – Strange improvement. Great for Monkchers, meaningless for rest. Who design Ranger Tree to be great for other Class? I don’t know that monkchers lobby is so strong in DDO. Why not made DC AA Core abilities depended? On the other changes:

• Paralyzing – If I understand it correctly (with save – 3 sec debuf, without save, 6 second paralyzing), that it’s very good move. Great CC ability, even with save.
• Smiting and Banishing – Not very great changes. With new Elemental Arrow, it’s better deal with these creature by DPS, then have hope that we proc some good stuff. Suggestion is to add Bane or Lesser Bane ability.
• Terror – Why you leave these ability? It’s party killer. Change it to blind/stun/”no-run-away-fear” ability. Or made it multiselector: Run away Fear or No-Run away Fear. Also add something on save: Shaken maybe?

Mystical Archer – Are y kidding me? While I like double shoot, it’s not something that I will stay pure. If I consider stay pure I just go DWS Core 20 for much much more power. I suggest the obvious:

• Let add 3rd stable imbues of any choice (even two different Elemental Arrows or Metalline+Aligned bypass)

Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank – same here. If you don’t have plan to change at least one of the Action Boosts, don’t bother. No one will use them.

Slaying Arrow – Well, that ability is OP and players just love it. For me you can freely nerf it, but give us something in return.

Overall much abilities are no mention, but they NEED to be improve:

1st Core, True strike, Soul Magic, Moonbow, Runebow – are so week abilities. Especially T5 abilities compare to new DWS (and planning nerf to Slaying Arrow).

Let me suggest some ideas here:

• 1st Core – change +1 bonus from Bows to Arrows, and made this bonus stack with everything.
• True strike –add no fail on roll 1 (thus you probably always hit), combine in one rank with 1 AP cost
• Soul Magic –Add small SP regeneration after kill (like 1d3+1 SP regen after kill)
• Moonbow – Remove temporary, replace by SP regen: Once every 30 second you regen SP equal to you AA core abilities. Reduce AP cost to 1.
• Runebow – made 3 ranks, 1 AP each.
  
  • 1st rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows, Your arrows gain +60% returning ability
  • 2nd rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows (+2 total), Your arrows gain +70% returning ability
  • 3rd rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows(+3 total), Your arrows gain +80% returning ability

About Nerf to Manyshoot and 10kStars – If you consider additional AA improvement, then this is good move. Otherwise, please don’t nerf forever ranged toons.

Spells for Ranger: I know that there is no ETA on ranger spells, but I create threat that suggest some improvement, without much time to work with it. Look at this, and consider some improvement – Spells on Ranger (Especially Level 3 and 4) are so week… https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...y-2-new-Spell)

[jakeelala]

Even with the bug you state i doubt this can be better than Mortal Fear with as many attacks as throwers got so far. I hope you already have bug reported it. If Shadowstar is bugged then the bug with Shadowstar should be fixed but this should not in any way be a reason to balance builds or discuss future changes to 10k stars.

Against red names its quite superior.

All builds are helped by more Ranged Power, and in the spirit of the devs not wanting any one build to be the best, 10k should not be a requirement for throwers (though it should be powerful and useful since it requires a feat and ki regen).

However, this is why we need crit multipliers fixed for throwers. 18 Ranger thrower with just Shuriken Expertise is balanced. A Swashbuckle bard who cant use ToEE or Advanced Ninja Training but gets 15-20x3 is balanced.

10K without a doubleshot debuff is a HUGE buff. That's why they've reduced the missile it procs as a result. The vast majority of the time you were only getting 2 extra shots from 10k anyway, now you will be basically assured of one, but after 10k for those other 30seconds you get full double shot. What they've done is taken out some of the burst (but not all with the RP boost) and made the damage overall higher, but more consistent and steady over time.

Like my higher doubleshot builds already were.

[Erik_Loki]

[*]Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

• Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"

Ok We can save this one... DC based on WIS? On ranger? Seriously??? What do you have in mind? Focus on something else at this point... don't destroy the AA tree!

[Arlathen]

A final piece of feedback before I head to bed, but an important point I wanted to re-emphasise after stating as much in the Tempest/DWS threads.

Ranger, to me, is the one class that offers some true Versatility even when played pure.

• Even if you heavily spec into Melee, you've always had a solid Ranged option backed up with feats and of course, a good 20s burst of Manyshot.
• Even if you heavily spec into Ranged, you've always had a full line of TWF feats allowing you to get down and dirty if you need too.

As much as I'm advocating careful changes to Manyshot to make Pure Rangers who specialise in Archery competitive with other Archer builds, please for the love of all things holy don't dilute Manyshot down for the Melee Rangers.

On reflection, I think the current changes penalize Pure Ranger Archers against Monkchers, and penalize Melee Rangers who value their versatility, too much

Sad Panda

[FestusHood]

Let's say i accept that archers which have both manyshot and 10k stars will be equal, but different than the way they work now. What isn't clear to me is whether having only one or the other will be as good as having both. I'm also curious if there will be a change to the cooldown of manyshot. If both cooldowns remain the same as live, won't 10k stars be strictly better than manyshot?

[Severlin]

The reduction in projectile numbers for that period will significantly reduce additional damage from sneak attack, arrow imbues, and on hit weapon effects. So not only do archers already have a comparatively low RoF outside of manyshot, that same disadvantage will now be extended to it.

As an aside, Sneak Attack and many feat based on hit damage effects scale with Ranged Power. Sneak Attack, as an example, scales with 150% Ranged Power so this will actually be a buff for many Sneak Attack builds.

Sev~

[mikarddo]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

Why do you want a design that throws out fewer arrows when a crossbow user or shuriken user throws out anywhere between far more and far, far more projectiles?
Without an answer to this question the entire basis for the considered change is void.

[CeltEireson]

This is 10-20 less than casters get in their prefered schools.
42 was my DC when level cap was 20.

True but the 42 DC being quoted was based on neither spending points in wisdom on level up, additional feats, enhancements or epic destiny abilities and also other equipment.

So starting at the 42 DC quoted and assuming at cap:

+7 from The Band Immaterial ring
+1 guild bonus
+1 from elven racial enhancements
+3 from Draconic twist
so 54 DC

and if you really want to go all out
+1 - +3 from enchantment feats
+1 wizard past life feat
+1 bard past life feat

and that's not including spending a few more points in Wisdom during level up.

I'm not suggesting anyone would really spend all that to get their DCs to high levels., but the thing is they don't need to be as high as a DC wizards. A DC wizard needs his spells to work most of the time otherwise he is just wasting spellpoints and will soon run out. This is a stance and every arrow can cause the mob to fail its DC, a ranger can fire arrows out a lot faster than a wizard can cast CC spells and he never runs out of arrows - even if mobs fail the DC check only 25% of the time they are still likely to be locked down because in a six second period you are going to be firing more than 4 arrows. Even if they only fail on a 1 they're still locked down for 6 seconds, and with improved precise shot this ends up being an AOE effect.

So 42 is low, but then to have good reliable CC generally requires a good bit of investment and I don't think that should be any different for rangers than casters.

[CeltEireson]

Why do you want a design that throws out fewer arrows when a crossbow user or shuriken user throws out anywhere between far more and far, far more projectiles?
Without an answer to this question the entire basis for the considered change is void.

in normal use yes, during manyshot I'd have to say no - plus all 4 arrows are fired at once so all the damage and hit calculation are being processed simultaneously,

[Seikojin]

To the peeps here, what if:
Manyshot and 10k provided a passive buff to doubleshot and had a shared timer clicky attack that fired 4 shots every 12 seconds? This way you have doubleshot running at all times and you could get up to 8 shots with the clicky every 12 seconds?

[mikarddo]

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.
Sev~

I realise that the number of attacks is uimportant for the relative comparison but I still need to ask. Do you see bows shooting twice per second?
I ran a few tests and with Blinding Speed on a level 28 I was getting just below 1.2 shots per second (with no doubleshot and not using manyshot or 10k stars).

Could you maybe post actual numbers for numbers of shots per second using a bow, using an x-bow or using shurikens? When you claim that a high number of projectiles is bad for performance we need the relative numbers for the 3 kinds of projectiles so we know for a fact that targeting arrows is appropriate. I rather doubt it as bows seem much slower than x-bows or shurikens but please enlighten us as you seem to build the entire case of lower number or arrows in Manyshot and 10k stars on that.

[Firewall]

Against red names its quite superior.

All builds are helped by more Ranged Power, and in the spirit of the devs not wanting any one build to be the best, 10k should not be a requirement for throwers (though it should be powerful and useful since it requires a feat and ki regen).

However, this is why we need crit multipliers fixed for throwers. 18 Ranger thrower with just Shuriken Expertise is balanced. A Swashbuckle bard who cant use ToEE or Advanced Ninja Training but gets 15-20x3 is balanced.

10K without a doubleshot debuff is a HUGE buff. That's why they've reduced the missile it procs as a result. The vast majority of the time you were only getting 2 extra shots from 10k anyway, now you will be basically assured of one, but after 10k for those other 30seconds you get full double shot. What they've done is taken out some of the burst (but not all with the RP boost) and made the damage overall higher, but more consistent and steady over time.

Like my higher doubleshot builds already were.

Fact is that builds with a high Doubleshot and high Sneak Attack Damage benefit the most from these changes (and still are nerfed in my book) and these are ranger and rogue multiclass thrower builds.

Pure monk is probably the oldest and most widespread thrower build because - as you said in your thread about the bugged crit multiplier - they are still in the top DPS range for throwers. So all the people with a pure monk build (and i know quite a lot) should be considered when the Devs are changing a key element of their build. Especially since it costs a feat slot, action points for Tier 3 Contemplation in Henshin Mystic and a twist slot for Enlightenment in epics to maintain a high passive Ki regeneration. This is quite a high investment and should be rewarded not dismissed.

With the DPS, PRR and MRR increases of the latest melee changes and severely bugged wolf and tree builds as of late i don't think thrower builds should be nerfed even more in comparison. They don't come near any of those DPS numbers anyway. So far the most power of throwers came from the high number of attacks in combination with many damage procs. This is nerfed severely by the changes because of less attacks and procs not being buffed by ranged power. And thus pure monks take the biggest hit.

[Requiro]

As an aside, Sneak Attack and many feat based on hit damage effects scale with Ranged Power. Sneak Attack, as an example, scales with 150% Ranged Power so this will actually be a buff for many Sneak Attack builds.

Sev~

Yes it is

Math:

1 SA Die = ~3,5 dmg
20 BAB toon (4x20=80)
80 RP * 150% = 120 RP
Manyshoot now: 3,5x4=14 dmg
Manyshoot after: 3,5x2x2,2=15,4 dmg

But what about AA abilitis that scale with Spell Power? For them it's huge nerf.

[mikarddo]

The fun part of playing an archer (to me) is maximizing the damage I get from Manyshot + Slayer Arrows + Adrenaline.

Sure, my sustained damage is well below most other builds - but hitting a string of enemies with a combo is FUN. Further, it makes for a different gameplay than most other builds which I consider a very good thing (tm). These changes seem to aim towards lowering the burst damage very considerably which upping the sustained damage some - but that removes the fun and different part from the play style while simply making it more like other builds.

Whats the point in claiming to want to further build diversity if the actual effect is to remove the actually different play style?