Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Xionanx]

DC's - Need to be 20 + 4x Number of AA Core Abilities + Enchantment Modifiers : This way Rangers/Elf's can both get high DC's by investing in the AA CORE

Manyshot - OMG that is such a ridiculous nerf, SO MUCH NERF. If your intention is to nerf manyshot, then just go ahead and make it a passive that give's (2% Doubleshot and +2RP) x BAB and be done with it. It would be prefereable to what you are proposing. If there is NO chance of a 3rd arrow above 100% doubleshot, then +80% doubleshot for 20 seconds is so increadibly weak. Yeah, who cares you dont get the doubleshot "debuff" afterwards.. it doesn't matter, you already took a 320% doubleshot debuff for 20 seconds.

At least with it being a passive if anyone has a doubleshot greater then 20% already they aren't being screwed.

Is the idea that "Arrows" are causing lag or something? It sounds like its a "Calculation Issue" due to projectiles flying around is why you are justifying a 320% nerf to the skill. IF THAT IS THE ISSUE THEN WHY NOT MAKE IT GIVE 20RP X BAB for 20 SECONDS AND NO DOUBLESHOT PENALTY. Then.. HEY.. Guess what? You still have 400% increased damage for 20 seconds just like the current Manyshot, but without "All the Extra Arrows" flying around.

Granted, you need to make RP effect:
Shots
Elemental Imbues
Etc..

But yeah.. the "nerf" to manyshot as was posted is just too much.

[barecm]

Will the requirement of paralyzing and terror arrows to get tier 5 arrow of slaying be eliminated? Being that we are lead to the choice between elemental or CC type paralyzing / terror arrow line, it would make a little more sense to not have that pre-req. I understand that tier 5 elemental arrow adds to the tiers below it, but there is no such synergy with arrow of slaying and terror / paralyzing.

[Thar]

You need to take into account that DPS after these abilities are finished will be increased by your Doubleshot since there is no longer a debuff.

Sev~

currently if your using manyshot, you probably don't care too much about your doubleshot bonus for the cooldown. if you worry about your doubleshot bonus then it's high enough that it's better used full time and you won't use manyshot except as a oh **** button.

[Thar]

There is a large potential increase in DPS with the loss of the Doubleshot debuff. We have to account for that.

Good point on the weapon switch. Our plan is that the short term buffs end if you unequip your weapon during Manyshot or Ten Thousand Stars.

Sev~

and there is a large disparity between other ranged combat and bows which needs to be addressed. Bows should fire faster than crossbows as the damage is lower and crit range smaller.

[Hobgoblin]

i really really dont like the manyshot nerf.


it feels way too much


if you let double shot go above 100 and get a 3rd and maybe a forth with a very high double shot that might work

something like

0-100% ds - 2 arrow

100-150% ds - 3 arrow\

200 or more - 4 arrows

[Vargouille]

Will Force Arrows stay as 1d6 damage, since Force is less resistible than other elements (which I actually encourage), or will it also be bumped to 1d8?

Force Arrows remain 1d6 (but now scale with more dice and spell power).

1) Will elemental imbues benefit from spell lore?
2) Will elemental attacks benefit from spell power and/or spell lore?
2) Can you create a few named bows/throwing weapons with caster abilities, eg spell power (even if universal/potency)/lore with Enchantment DC bonus?

1. Spell Critical Chance probably won't affect Elemental imbues due to technical hurdles. If we find it's easy to add that in we probably will, but my hopes for that aren't high.
2. Spell Power will affect the 5 Elemental damage enhancements and Force Arrows.
2#2: We'll certainly be keeping AA in mind for future itemization (and possibly part of random loot changes that aren't the topic of this thread =)

1. Monkcher vs. Ranger
This is the biggest issue for me. These changes don't really do anything for the imbalance between running a Monkcher versus running a pure Ranger. The Monkcher still has the huge advantage of taking both feats and having much higher RoF over the Pure Ranger. A Pure Ranger is still stuck with just Manyshot.

Note that when I speculate on 'Pure Rangers', I'm generalizing to full-time Bow users that don't have Monk levels and 10K Stars access.

There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.

Here's some builds we're explicitly considering for AA and Manyshot/10K changes:

1. Pure Ranger Archer, primary AA secondary DWS
2. Pure Ranger Archer, primary DWS secondary AA
3. Monkcher 6/12 Monk/Ranger (+a couple extra levels... somewhere?) using both 10k and Manyshot. This build doesn't get +1 Critical Multiplier in AA. The development team is divided on whether or not this is enough to balance getting 10k Stars. A cage match has been scheduled (by which I mean DPS Testing). Should this not be enough, we are explicitly open to ideas. There are a lot of options on the table, most of them are undesirable for one reason or a nother.
4. Elven Pure Monk'cher AA: Gives up DWS.
5. Elven 12 Ranger 6 Monk: 31 points to get Crit in AA, 21 points to get crit in DWS, 14 points to get the Elven AA tree (so you don't need 18 Ranger for the AA Core Crit) This is potentially the worrying build!

This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

[jakeelala]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

Shuriken build will now require 6 Monks levels again, that version of 10k makes Doubleshot + 10k viable again.

However, I would like to note that this will EASILY put some builds over 100% Doubleshot.
1. Is the game coded to allow more than 1 missile from Doubleshot? If it isn't, the Damage of both 10k and Manyshot are going to be significantly degraded for both Bow and Shuriken throwers (10k). 100% Doubleshot for 20 seconds does not compare to 400% Doubleshot for 20 seconds in any universe. Even if you add in 100 Ranged Power in the case of manyshot. If BaB is 28 (assume Tensers) then you would get 112 RP and 112 Doubleshot. That's basically equivalent (not quite) to HALF of Manyshot as coded today
Scenario: Ranger 20
Doubleshot Sources:
20% AA Core for
20% DWS Tier 5
8% Quiver
10% Epic feat
9% Epic Primal PLs
=67% before temporary sources

Base damage before Manyshot =
1 Primary arrow + .67 (Doubleshot converted to partial missile for math) = 1.67

With Current Manyshot:
4 Primary arrows + 0 Doubleshot arrows = 4 (roughly a 240% boost to damage) HOWEVER you are then saddled with a LONG Doubleshot cooldown timer which really eats into DPS.

With new Manyshot
1 Primary arrow +1 Doubleshot Arrow = 2 (@+112 RP). If you had zero RP at 28 (impossible) this would make manyshot equivalent to roughly 2.4x damage (interesting how that math works out, eh...?). But at any RP over 0, this is a nerf. Most people will have RP at 28 in the 80-120 range depending on gear and Destiny.

Without doubleshot allowing more than 1 arrow, Manyshot effectively is just giving ~100 RP.

HOWEVER
The loss of a manyshot doubleshot cooldown timer is a HUGE buff. Especially when you run around with 67% base Doubleshot.

[Thar]

[QUOTE=Vargouille;5700265]Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...



We agree with many of these thoughts.

[LIST=1][*]Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.

1. Does this mean you are going to be forced to spec for Wisdom? Well, if you don't, your DCs are probably higher than before. Paralyzing Arrow DC on live caps out at 26. Just taking Paralyzing Arrows itself puts you at 21, with a 10 Wisdom. Putting in some effort towards Wisdom and Enchantment DCs (which applies to Enchantment spells in addition to these four stances) can help a lot.
2. We absolutely expect some players may mostly ignore Paralyzing Arrows much of the time and focus on Elemental damage. That's fine and not a bad thing, because it means not all AAs look the same.

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

[FestusHood]

At first glance, I did not care that the main attribute used here would be WIS. I just thought, well, it's a Ranger, so WIS.

Upon looking at everything this enhancement tree does, however, the vast majority of those abilities seem rooted in Arcane trickery. Not Divine charlatanism.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks WIS is the incorrect stat to be using here. It definitely screams for INT.

Druids cast several staple arcane spells, and they use wisdom for the dc.

[Xionanx]

Force Arrows remain 1d6 (but now scale with more dice and spell power).




1. Spell Critical Chance probably won't affect Elemental imbues due to technical hurdles. If we find it's easy to add that in we probably will, but my hopes for that aren't high.
2. Spell Power will affect the 5 Elemental damage enhancements and Force Arrows.
2#2: We'll certainly be keeping AA in mind for future itemization (and possibly part of random loot changes that aren't the topic of this thread =)



There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.

Here's some builds we're explicitly considering for AA and Manyshot/10K changes:

1. Pure Ranger Archer, primary AA secondary DWS
2. Pure Ranger Archer, primary DWS secondary AA
3. Monkcher 6/12 Monk/Ranger (+a couple extra levels... somewhere?) using both 10k and Manyshot. This build doesn't get +1 Critical Multiplier in AA. The development team is divided on whether or not this is enough to balance getting 10k Stars. A cage match has been scheduled (by which I mean DPS Testing). Should this not be enough, we are explicitly open to ideas. There are a lot of options on the table, most of them are undesirable for one reason or a nother.

This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

You talk about wanting us to do math and then hide access to the combat log so we can . Maybe you guys should allow the combat logs to be dumped to a TXT file so players can get some "Real" DPS numbers using ACT.

But since that isn't going to happen, please give me:

BASE Bow ROF at BAB 20 in Arrows/Second/Minute (I'm talking NO haste, NO speed enhancements, etc). I just want to know how many arrows a 20th level "Fighter" can shoot in 1 minute with absolutely NO "Bow" attack speed increase abilities. I can work out the rest on my own.

And I'll give you plenty of math to prove that the manyshot "nerf" is just that, a nerf.

[Hobgoblin]

so what im getting from all the revamps here is:


devs love meele

so they buff meele

devs hate casters, so they nerf the heck outta casters and leave it.

and no warlock isnt a caster!

so unless you like meeles, there is little to no build versatility in this game.

seems legit.

[Severlin]

Except there isnt, no one kept using a bow during the old penalty window at just the base rate. Either you used 10k etc to keep shooting multiple times, or you swapped back to melee and used MS just for a ranged burst (ie, the classic ranger style).

So really... its a nerf. And it counters a RELATIVE boost. Even with no penalty after MS, there is no buff. Its just the same as it would be normally.

Youre turning MS into a doubleshot action boost. Thats a nerf. Straight up.

Do not do this. Go back to the drawing board. This is lame. Thanks.

Sorry, I must be tired because I am missing your logic. I apologize. Let me lay out some math and see where we are.

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.

With that Wisdom you can expect around 2.7 shots per attack while 10K Stars is active.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Manyshot: 20 seconds
Neither: 10 seconds
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Neither: 30 seconds

<Repeat>

Old Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks

Total: 564

New Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks

Total: 424

Reduction in DPS is ~25% with no ranged power buff.

Now account for extra Ranged Power buffs.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 120 Ranged Power
Neither: 10 seconds - 0 Ranged Power
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Neither: 30 seconds - 0 Ranged Power

That's a 50% uptime on 70 Ranged Power and a 16.66% uptime on 120 Ranged Power. That's a boost of about 55% damage overall which will make up for the reduction in shots, although you will have less increase as you accumulate Ranged Power.

In other words, let's assume an average of 100 damage per shot after averaging crits to keep the math easy.

Old Way: 56,400 damage over 2 minutes

New way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.2 = 17600 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 = 2600 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 = 7800 damage

Total Damage: 68,800 over 2 minutes

That's a significant buff.

But that's not realistic, as most builds will already have Ranged Power which will blunt the effect of the Ranged Power boost. Doing the math again assuming a static 70 Ranged Power for a top end build we get:

Old Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27200
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 3400
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 10200

Total damage in 2 minutes: 95880 (which of course is the same as the previous damage * 1.7)

New Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.9 = 23200 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 4420 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 13260 damage

Total damage in 2 minutes: 98480

Still a small buff.

Now, the new versions will blunt the effects of Slayer Arrow a bit since you won't get 4 of them with Manyshot active, but I'll be honest that's a good thing in our mind and we are trying to account for that with other tree buffs.

I apologize if I missed the math someplace.

(Edit: I believe the number of attacks per second washes out and the damage ratios are the same at different rates of fire.)

Sev~

[Thar]

Force Arrows remain 1d6 (but now scale with more dice and spell power).




1. Spell Critical Chance probably won't affect Elemental imbues due to technical hurdles. If we find it's easy to add that in we probably will, but my hopes for that aren't high.
2. Spell Power will affect the 5 Elemental damage enhancements and Force Arrows.
2#2: We'll certainly be keeping AA in mind for future itemization (and possibly part of random loot changes that aren't the topic of this thread =)



There's at least a few different builds that we're going to be trying to balance, and no matter what we do, It's Complicated. We are trying hard to make sure 6 monk levels are not JUST better, and we think we're getting there. We're happy to hear more ideas. We disagree that the monkcher just has a huge advantage, but we need to do more testing, and will be happy to hear about player builds and tests and math.

Here's some builds we're explicitly considering for AA and Manyshot/10K changes:

1. Pure Ranger Archer, primary AA secondary DWS
2. Pure Ranger Archer, primary DWS secondary AA
3. Monkcher 6/12 Monk/Ranger (+a couple extra levels... somewhere?) using both 10k and Manyshot. This build doesn't get +1 Critical Multiplier in AA. The development team is divided on whether or not this is enough to balance getting 10k Stars. A cage match has been scheduled (by which I mean DPS Testing). Should this not be enough, we are explicitly open to ideas. There are a lot of options on the table, most of them are undesirable for one reason or a nother.

This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

most monchers are 12 monk 6 ranger.

manyshot does seema a bit weaker with the cap to arrows since you don't get the 4 arrows burst. yes there is a cooldown but lets be realistic, that was thrown on the class to nerf the moncher, not the ranger. No one ever said rangers were doing too much damage with manyshot. how about a bonus of +1 RP per ranger level to manyshot? an avg 6-20% during that burst along with the 64%-80%(assuming 16-20 bab) would be 70% -100% damage for probably 2 arrows. gives 20 ranger the illusion of 4 arrows damage that they had during that burst at least. (along with keeping the crit mod which is needed to keep up with rogue's pass)

[dontmater]

the manyshot change is lame, manyshot gets hit while 10k stars stays about the same.. LAME

[Vargouille]

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

[jakeelala]

Maths™

Sev~

Good job. This is a decent way to lay it out. But if you do that with a non-10k bow build, you will see it doesn't line up so nice.

Moreover, builds like my thrower in LD with 10 stacks of blitz (basically full time) runs around with about 180 Ranged Power.

Only the gimpiest of gimps will run around at end game with 70 Ranged Power.

Please adjust your models accordingly.



I JUST WANT TO REPEAT THESE CHANGES TO THE ACTIVE ABILITIES DONT REALLY REPRESENT A NERF OR BOOST EITHER WAY...THE SIGNIFICANT CHANGE (AND IN THIS CASE BUFF) IS LARGELY WRAPPED UP IN THE REMOVAL OF THE DOUBLESHOT DEBUFF.

[Vargouille]

most monchers are 12 monk 6 ranger.

Which means they don't get any of the Core crit bonuses from AA or DWS, unless Elven. As mentioned there are many options.

[Steve_Howe]

Druids cast several staple arcane spells, and they use wisdom for the dc.

It doesn't matter that a spell with the same name, description, and effect can be cast by Wizard or Sorc. Druid spells (even if they have an Arcane equivalent) are, according to every D&D source, defined as Divine spells.

[Xionanx]

Sorry, I must be tired because I am missing your logic. I apologize. Let me lay out some math and see where we are.

Let's say you have 30% doubleshot, 70 Wisdom, and fire 2 times per second with a bow.

With that Wisdom you can expect around 2.7 shots per attack while 10K Stars is active.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Manyshot: 20 seconds
Neither: 10 seconds
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds.
Neither: 30 seconds

<Repeat>

Old Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks

Total: 564

New Way:
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks

Total: 424

Reduction in DPS is ~25% with no ranged power buff.

Now account for extra Ranged Power buffs.

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 120 Ranged Power
Neither: 10 seconds - 0 Ranged Power
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 70 Ranged Power
Neither: 30 seconds - 0 Ranged Power

That's a 50% uptime on 70 Ranged Power and a 16.66% uptime on 120 Ranged Power. That's a boost of about 55% damage overall which will make up for the reduction in shots, although you will have less increase as you accumulate Ranged Power.

In other words, let's assume an average of 100 damage per shot after averaging crits to keep the math easy.

Old Way: 56,400 damage over 2 minutes

New way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.2 = 17600 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 = 2600 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 20400 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 = 7800 damage

Total Damage: 68,800 over 2 minutes

That's a significant buff.

But that's not realistic, as most builds will already have Ranged Power which will blunt the effect of the Ranged Power boost. Doing the math again assuming a static 70 Ranged Power for a top end build we get:

Old Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 160 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27200
Neither: 10 seconds - 20 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 3400
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 162 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 27540
Neither: 30 seconds - 60 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 10200

Total damage in 2 minutes: 95880 (which of course is the same as the previous damage * 1.7)

New Way:

Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Manyshot: 20 seconds - 80 attacks * 100 * 2.9 = 23200 damage
Neither: 10 seconds - 26 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 4420 damage
Ten Thousand Stars: 30 seconds - 120 attacks * 100 * 2.4 = 28800 damage
Neither: 30 seconds - 78 attacks * 100 * 1.7 = 13260 damage

Total damage in 2 minutes: 98480

Still a small buff.

Now, the new versions will blunt the effects of Slayer Arrow a bit since you won't get 4 of them with Manyshot active, but I'll be honest that's a good thing in our mind and we are trying to account for that with other tree buffs.

I apologize if I missed the math someplace.

(Edit: I believe the number of attacks per second washes out and the damage ratios are the same at different rates of fire.)

Sev~

This entire concept falls apart if you already have a double shot of 40% or greater.

40% + 80% double shot = 120% but, as you have said before you dont get extra shots for that 20% above 100%, so you are "Penalized" 20% doubleshot for 20 seconds while manyshot is active.
Normally, during that 20 seconds, you would be getting 400% doubleshot, and then be penalized afterwards.

Again, I would love an "Actual" RoF (rate of fire) for a bow so that I make a spreadsheet and post it. but just looking at the math, its some major nerf to manyshot. This also only serves to make "monkcher" better.

Again. loosing those "Extra" arrows you loose:
Elemental Damage Proces
Ability Procs (blinding, paralyzing, etc)
so on and so forth.

Unless bow "RoF" is increasing to match XBOW RoF, which it SHOULD BE FASTER THEN CROSSBOWS IN THE FIRST PLACE, then this is a huge nerf to bow users and only serves to push them further behind.

[Aletys]

Dragons Edge is a Tier 2 effect Spell Power is a Tier 1 I didn't forget anything but you don't know what you are talking about.




That's exactly what 4e does makes spell and melee damage and everything else based on one stat. I'm saying not to do that.

Actually, I do. Spellpower is Tier 1, spell focus is Tier 2. With this approach, both are going to be needed. & when soloing I want the vulnerability as well as edge.