Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Lord_Jaffacake]

I enjoy playing ranged builds and the proposed changes look fun to play. Keep up the good work Devs!

The only points I would add are below

Questions

1) Will elemental imbues benefit from spell lore?
2) Will elemental attacks benefit from spell power and/or spell lore?
2) Can you create a few named bows/throwing weapons with caster abilities, eg spell power (even if universal/potency)/lore with Enchantment DC bonus?

Suggestions


1) Add Intelligence along with the proposed Wisdom as a dc modifier to dc imbues

2) Add Wisdom to damage as a core ability gained at level 12 "while a bow or throwing weapon is equipped"

3) Add stacking spell power at 2 points gained per point spent in the AA tree. "while a bow or throwing weapon is equipped". This could be a good mechanic to tweak the elemental imbues/attacks if they are too weak/strong.

4) If elemental changes are too weak another option to tweak it could be to add stacking spell lore at levels 12, 18, 20 (2 points per each of the 3 cores?) "while a bow or throwing weapon is equipped"

5) At level 20 remove +4 dexterity and replace with +4 wisdom and +4 intelligence, also add n% stacking ranged alarcity

6) Allow each core ability to add 1 point each to the dc of any ranger spells, also level 20 capstone adds an additional 3 points. Stacks with spell focus feats.

Comments

1) Crit multiplier at level 18 is great. Works nicely with the +1 critical threat range gained in deepwood if select it.

2) Very good synergy and also good difficulty choices if go AA via the "Elf route" some builds would have to give us caster weapons/enhancement points etc. Cleric/Favoured Soul with Deity bow weapons look useful. Could also work as a niche with other classes.

3) Double shot and ranged alarcity I know aren't easily to change especially due to manyshot, and it will probably end up needing to be done at a later time. Any feedback you can give though would be apreciated

[bbqzor]

There is a large potential increase in DPS with the loss of the Doubleshot debuff. We have to account for that.

Except there isnt, no one kept using a bow during the old penalty window at just the base rate. Either you used 10k etc to keep shooting multiple times, or you swapped back to melee and used MS just for a ranged burst (ie, the classic ranger style).

So really... its a nerf. And it counters a RELATIVE boost. Even with no penalty after MS, there is no buff. Its just the same as it would be normally.

Youre turning MS into a doubleshot action boost. Thats a nerf. Straight up.

Do not do this. Go back to the drawing board. This is lame. Thanks.

[Vargouille]

Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...

I suspect the devs are aiming to make you choose between being good dps or crowd control with lower dps by forcing you to concentrate on wisdom to have the cc stances etc work. Which I think is fair enough.

Between Aa and DWS we can get +1 to both crit.multiplier and threat range which is a significant increase, plus what looks like substantial increase in damage from elemental or force arrows. So in AA id say its a choice between focusing on the special stances or focusing on elemental damage.

How good the elemental damage is depends on the scaling, but even at 100% it would be possibly up to 14d8 damage if I read it right with just 100 spellpower? And there are plenty of items that give spellpower boosts for various elements and most named bows have a red augment as well, so I don't think getting a reasonable amount of spellpower would be that difficult

With regards to requests for speed increases for ranger I don't think that its a good idea, as it is a ranger can avoid most damage by virtue of attacking at range and kiting if needs be. Increasing their speed to a point where they can simply outrun most mobs would possibly make life a little too easy for them especially when combined with the dps increase and cc elements.

We agree with many of these thoughts.

1. Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.
   
   1. Does this mean you are going to be forced to spec for Wisdom? Well, if you don't, your DCs are probably higher than before. Paralyzing Arrow DC on live caps out at 26. Just taking Paralyzing Arrows itself puts you at 21, with a 10 Wisdom. Putting in some effort towards Wisdom and Enchantment DCs (which applies to Enchantment spells in addition to these four stances) can help a lot.
   2. We absolutely expect some players may mostly ignore Paralyzing Arrows much of the time and focus on Elemental damage. That's fine and not a bad thing, because it means not all AAs look the same.
   
   
2. We expect some players to try to build for all three of Physical Ranged, Magical Ranged, and DCs. That's going to be a hard build to make. Consider it a challenge. We're not going out of our way to make it easy for you. (Dexterity is probably the worst choice for the DC-driver stat for this reason, though Constitution is close.)
3. This enables a DC-based build for Arcane Archers that never existed, particular for epic. The DC formula is identical to what a level 10 (Ranger) spell would be. With a bow it's trickier, but you can probably still get pretty close to the same caster-stat and Enchantment DCs as a Sorc or Wizard (roughly). While there may yet be problems to solve with Epic DCs and monster saves, we think this is an excellent "target" to aim for with Arcane Archer DCs.
4. Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!

---

How will this work for the Elven version?

Most things will be the same. We are open to there being differences.

For instance, it is interesting to include Ranger level in DC calculations. And we do discuss things like pure-class Elven Monkchers (who won't get Deepwood Stalker bonuses but do get other things, etc.) Realistically, including Ranger would probably mean reducing the 20 in the DC calculations that coworkers tell me I've given out too generously - that 20 could just be Ranger level or 10 + Ranger level, etc.

But we're not firm on any definite differences right now. We're happy for players to point out places this is good or bad or interesting.

---

So, kindly dont nerf (...)monkchers.

Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

1. Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.
2. Non-monkchers should also be viable top-tier ranged DPS builds.

In particular, I personally frequently bring up this goal (for instance, when discussing 10k and Manyshot): The best build ranged should not require monk levels.

I will also personally, at threat of harm from my coworkers, encourage you to discuss and math as much monkcher vs. non-monkcher as possible. I truly absolutely do not want monk levels required in all the best ranged builds. I also truly absolutely want monkcher to exist as a top ranged build. This is hard, especially with trying to keep overall changes sane and avoid breaking existing builds wherever possible.

For instance, we could make 10k & Manyshot fully exclusive timers. But then every monkcher would need to get rid of one of those, which is essentially a forced rebuild to run your existing character(s). We really hate doing those. (We do not in any way hate making new builds that are awesome and fun and may draw you away from existing builds - because usually you could keep playing your existing build and it would work as it has. If new stuff is exciting and awesome... well, that's simply not a thing to avoid, that's a goal to reach for every time. Note that this is NOT the same as "new things should be OP", which is not a goal and not desirable.)

---

Rangers DUMP Wis!

(...)

The ONLY Spellpower a Ranger should have is Devotion!

That may be how some Rangers have been built in the past.

That doesn't mean it's how Arcane Archers should always be built in the future.

Especially if they want to be good at ranged physical, ranged magical, crowd control, and healing. If you want to be king of everything, that should be hard.

---

Are you going to drop the AP cost of shattermantle and dispelling shot to 1 each?

Some (other) AP costs may be subject to change, yes.

O think I get it now each of Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrow gives +1 so at total of +4?

This is correct.

I think the changes look pretty good. Some of us would like to see rangers get a bonus to run speed. Could that be put in this tree in say tier 1? Also, will rangers be getting some sort of "spell" pass? Our spells could really use a boost, revamp, redue.... Really enjoying my tempest/deepwood ranger!

There's probably no real need for additional run speed for most ranged characters, especially with the new 10% slow on Paralyzing Arrows - if that's what you need at the time.

We may look into Ranger spells at some point, but this is not that point.

Also, is double-shot working with all shots on a repeater WAI?

Doubleshot is currently intended to have a chance on each shot on a repeater at 1/3 the normal chance.

Dispelling shot: x%/y%/x% Chance to cast Silence. Target cannot cast spells for n seconds.

Shattermantle shot: Reduces MRR by x/y/z for n/n/n seconds.

Interesting ideas. We probably won't get to them Very Soon.

AA *NEEDS* steady, sustained damage in the tree (which I guess means ranged power, or bow animations being redone the way repeaters were to function in the new higher-damage environment). You keep forgetting that Arcane Archer is a racial tree for elves and half-elves and that means any class can be an AA. Sticking all the steady damage in Deepwood Sniper and presuming AA's can afford to take extra feats for ranged power (because rangers get the core archery feats for free) cripples racial builds.

Please read about the Elemental damage increase. It's pretty massive. Plus critical damage multiplier. Most of the changes increase damage. If there is something you are seeing here that isn't what you are looking for, or something you aren't seeing that you want, please be very specific.

I want to understand your feedback, but I just don't get what you are trying to say.

PLEASE stop dismissing racial AA's when you make these changes.

Don't panic. Our apologies for not being more explicit: Nearly all changes are expected to be done in Ranger Arcane Archer and Elven Arcane Archer. It's possible there will be some differences. It's something we've discussed but not concluded anything about.

Being AA the "caster" tree, I'm gonna ask this here aswell.

I've got it, you're not gonna add new spells, despite ranger clearly needs them.
The question is: why?

I mean, I really know how much time it takes for you, but you did it for other classes.
So why aren't you going to do this for the class that needs it more?

"Spells" are not something anyone directly needs per se. What do you want these spells to do? What are you desiring but not getting?

Rangers clearly don't need "spells" more than anything else. We're pretty confident with our priorities here. Adding new Ranger spells is not more important than any DWS, Tempest, or AA changes we've looked at recently. We understand if you disagree, but in the abstract it's extremely hard to understand why you feel "spells" generically need to be added.

2. Paralyzing Arrows
I like the on-save addition, but it would be further cool if this on-save effect stacked up to 5 times.

7. Dodge & Run speed
I was hoping to see some potential low hanging fruit in terms of Dodge or Run speed in this tree, since it didn't make it into Tempest or DWS, and on reflection I think it makes more sense for it to be in this tree somewhere?

Arcane Archers might be happy to have more run speed or the ability to reduce enemy movement by 50%... but they absolutely don't need it and it probably makes for more boring gameplay.

They also shouldn't really need Dodge the stat - they need to dodge in a more physical (digital-physical) sense.

[Arlathen]

1. Monkcher vs. Ranger
This is the biggest issue for me. These changes don't really do anything for the imbalance between running a Monkcher versus running a pure Ranger. The Monkcher still has the huge advantage of taking both feats and having much higher RoF over the Pure Ranger. A Pure Ranger is still stuck with just Manyshot.

Note that when I speculate on 'Pure Rangers', I'm generalizing to full-time Bow users that don't have Monk levels and 10K Stars access.

2. Is this a nerf?
Even from my untrained, non-mathmatical point of view this looks like a big nerf to these abilities. New Manyshot will easily cap a character at shooting 2 arrows per shot, and to be honest since there is enough passive Doubleshot in the game right now 10K Stars will also cap you out at 100% Doubleshot.

I don't think the Ranged Power bonuses come anywhere close to making up for the sheer lack of Rate of Fire these abilities are now lacking.
I also don't think that removing the Doubleshot penalty is a significant enough DPS increase to warrant a RoF nerf.

In simple terms, we lose 200% Doubleshot from our 20s Manyshot window, and gain 50%-ish Doubleshot over the course of the following 60s?

I'm happy to be proved wrong mathematically on this point, however

3. Suggestions
If the design intention is to both reduce RoF for server performance and also balance the abilities in terms of usefulness against each other, as well as promoting either the Monkcher build or a Pure Ranger as a ranged class, then how about something along the lines of the following:

• Manyshot - Duration 20s, Cooldown 40s. For the duration of this effect, you gain Doubleshot equal to 4x your BAB. You also gain Ranged Power equal to 4x your Character level.
• 10K Stars - Restrict it to Throwing Weapons only.

I'll be really sad to see the 4-shot volleys go on Manyshot, but atleast you gain some considerable uptime on the ability to replace that lost RoF. This then allows you to remove 10K Stars out of the equation by restricting it to thrown weapons only. Monkchers still have Manyshot and 50% Uptime on this ability, and the Ranged Power of Manyshot can be altered to balance the actual damage output of the ability against what we have today.

[FedoraSire]

Make the DCs work Base+Stat Mod of Bow's To-Hit+Other Bonuses

Make it to damage, so people with bow str can use str for something.

Who got bow str feat? oh, IDK, maybe 100% people with at least 1 ranger level?

Harper Bowmen/Elves count in the revamp too :P. Even Bow STR-ers have to use dexterity, but I can see your point.

/ Half-Signed, Half Unsigned?

[DagazUlf]

At first glance, I did not care that the main attribute used here would be WIS. I just thought, well, it's a Ranger, so WIS.

Upon looking at everything this enhancement tree does, however, the vast majority of those abilities seem rooted in Arcane trickery. Not Divine charlatanism.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks WIS is the incorrect stat to be using here. It definitely screams for INT.

[Augon]

[*]Slaying Arrow:

• Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

I do not see the issue with this ability. This is a single target fixed damage attack. Assassins have assassinate and Swashbucklers have Coup De Gras. Both of which are insta-kills. Enlightened Spirit has the ridiculous Shining Through. (Ridiculous, but funny). Many other trees have very important attacks or abilities in Tier 5 that the rest of the tree kinda builds towards. If anything, an attacked called "Slayer Arrow" should, perhaps, Slay. I've always thought it should have a chance to instakill. Granted, at level 12, this is a pretty substantial attack. In epics, since it does not scale in any way, not so much.

Combine nerfing Slayer Arrow with the proposed nerfing of Manyshot, Arcane Archers will not be pushed ahead to be on the same playing field with other classes. In fact, they will fall behind further.

[unbongwah]

Arcane Archers are INT based. They are Arcane. The DC should be INT-based as well.

It's not a wizard-only PrC, though. IIRC, you just need to be able to cast arcane spells to take the AA PrC, which means bards and sorcs (who are CHA-based) could also be AAs. I had a bard-based AA in NWN 1 who was a lot of fun.

In any case, though, as I keep saying, it's pointless to keep running back to PnP rules. For one thing, PnP AAs don't have any inherent CC abilities like Terror / Paralyzing Arrows; and Arrow of Death was an instakill with a fixed DC so low (20) it would render it useless in DDO. Curiously, though, I don't see anyone clamoring to implement those rules whenever they invoke PnP D&D...

• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
  
  • Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
  • Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
  • Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.

Normally I'm not a fan of builds where one stat is your dmg mod while another stat is your DC mod (see also: monks); but in this case it seems reasonable. This obviously helps WIS-based monkchers, of course; but it also helps WIS-based elf / HE casters who want to mix in AA. [It's too bad all of the divine classes are weaksauce choices for Enchantment spells, though.] So you can go WIS-based and become a ranged CC specialist; or you decide to ditch WIS, focus on your DPS stat (STR/DEX/INT depending on build), load up on Elemental Arrows, and ignore these DC-based abilities entirely. The idea that all abilities need to be equally useful to all AAs is silly, IMHO; good game balance is about making choices which involve reasonable tradeoffs, not finding the optimal paths to the "I WIN!" builds.

• Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"

Any particular reason this is in the lvl 18 core rather than the lvl 12 core like DWS & Tempest? Probably has multiclassing implications I'm not considering yet, since this affects both rgr and racial AAs.

• Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Dexterity bonus increased to +4

Whatever the rationale for the Doubleshot penalties in DDO, it's clear they've caused archers to fall behind other ranged builds. It's long overdue to add something like "The Doubleshot penalty from Manyshot is reduced to 20 seconds" to the AA capstone, while leaving 10K Stars alone. So non-monkcher AAs can achieve reasonable Doubleshot bonuses while MS is on cooldown; monkcher AAs gain some benefit, but still have to contend with their Doubleshot penalties from 10K Stars.

I would like to see DEX-based archers get some more love, though; it's kinda silly that the only DEX-based ranged ability for archers is Executioner's Shot. One possibility: Add a feat - let's call it "Hail of Arrows" for now, since Rain of Arrows is taken - which mimics 10K Stars, except (A) it only works with bows, (B) it's based on DEX not WIS, (C) you need at least 6 rgr lvls to take it (just as you need 6 monk lvls to take 10K Stars), and (D) it's on a shared cooldown with 10K Stars with the same Doubleshot penalty. So you can use HoA or 10K to complement Manyshot, but there's no point in having both abilities b/c you can't cycle thru all three. Monkchers are neither nerfed nor buffed, while DEX rgrs can add a new tool to their repertoire; but just like monkchers, you have to balance the extra burst DPS from HoA vs the Doubleshot penalty you incur afterward. [DEX-based AA rgrs will do more DPS, WIS-based monkchers have higher DCs for AA abilities - again, a reasonable tradeoff, IMHO.]

Finally, I hope Turbine will be using this pass to clarify which AA abilities are meant to work with all ranged atks and which are meant to be short-/longbow-only. It's very frustrating when you don't know what's WAI, what's broken, and what's a bug / exploit.

[Steve_Howe]

At first glance, I did not care that the main attribute used here would be WIS. I just thought, well, it's a Ranger, so WIS.

Upon looking at everything this enhancement tree does, however, the vast majority of those abilities seem rooted in Arcane trickery. Not Divine charlatanism.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks WIS is the incorrect stat to be using here. It definitely screams for INT.

Or CHA.

Arcane stats are INT or CHA.

CHA could help to trick folks (Bluff, anyone?).


Definitely not WIS, though.

[Delacroix21]

People talk about monkchers, but I don't see all that many of those these days...

Good point. The general playerbase is always at least 4 updates behind what the current power builds are. I can tell you that EE solo builds, monkcher is preety low on the list now, same with shiradi thrower builds.


Bards, barbs, paladins, trees, locks etc. so outclass archers now.

[Vellrad]

Harper Bowmen/Elves count in the revamp too :P. Even Bow STR-ers have to use dexterity, but I can see your point.

/ Half-Signed, Half Unsigned?

elfs already can get dex to damage so they're covered with dc= stat used for bow damage

[Arlathen]

1. Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.
2. We expect some players to try to build for all three of Physical Ranged, Magical Ranged, and DCs. That's going to be a hard build to make. Consider it a challenge. We're not going out of our way to make it easy for you. (Dexterity is probably the worst choice for the DC-driver stat for this reason, though Constitution is close.)
3. This enables a DC-based build for Arcane Archers that never existed, particular for epic. The DC formula is identical to what a level 10 (Ranger) spell would be. With a bow it's trickier, but you can probably still get pretty close to the same caster-stat and Enchantment DCs as a Sorc or Wizard (roughly). While there may yet be problems to solve with Epic DCs and monster saves, we think this is an excellent "target" to aim for with Arcane Archer DCs.
4. Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!

---

Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

1. Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.
2. Non-monkchers should also be viable top-tier ranged DPS builds.

In particular, I personally frequently bring up this goal (for instance, when discussing 10k and Manyshot): The best build ranged should not require monk levels.

I will also personally, at threat of harm from my coworkers, encourage you to discuss and math as much monkcher vs. non-monkcher as possible. I truly absolutely do not want monk levels required in all the best ranged builds. I also truly absolutely want monkcher to exist as a top ranged build. This is hard, especially with trying to keep overall changes sane and avoid breaking existing builds wherever possible.

For instance, we could make 10k & Manyshot fully exclusive timers. But then every monkcher would need to get rid of one of those, which is essentially a forced rebuild to run your existing character(s). We really hate doing those. (We do not in any way hate making new builds that are awesome and fun and may draw you away from existing builds - because usually you could keep playing your existing build and it would work as it has. If new stuff is exciting and awesome... well, that's simply not a thing to avoid, that's a goal to reach for every time. Note that this is NOT the same as "new things should be OP", which is not a goal and not desirable.)

---

Arcane Archers might be happy to have more run speed or the ability to reduce enemy movement by 50%... but they absolutely don't need it and it probably makes for more boring gameplay.

They also shouldn't really need Dodge the stat - they need to dodge in a more physical (digital-physical) sense.

This is all interesting feedback, Varg. Some further tidbits for myself:

1. AA play style - DC 'Casting'
I'm actually enthused to make a "DC-Caster" style Arcane Archer, in all honesty. There's a lot to build for with this approach, and lots of interesting abilities to acquire on a Ranger that I simply wouldn't have bothered with before.

2. AA play style - Magical Damage
With Spell Lore effects be able to make the Elemental Damage crit if Spell Power also affects them?

3. Monkcher vs Pure Ranger
This is really heartening to hear, and I have to agree - the last thing I want to see is a build completely obsoleted by enhancement and feat changes.

4. Run Speed
I hear you on this, I really do. Personally as an FPS player I find quick movements & tumbling not a problem to action to 'digitally-physically' dodge Mobs and incoming projectiles. However, what about the more 'keyboard challenged' players out there? A little extra dodge and perhaps trading out Paralyzing Arrows easy debuff for a permanent 10% Run speed increase in the cores?

And in all honesty, Monkchers are already enjoying some form of run speed increase anyway. The varieties I've played in the past have been 12 Monk / 6 Ranger variants that had an effective +10% run speed after Earth stance and access to Abundant Step for quick escapes.

[Delacroix21]

Btw pure rangers dont even need 10k stars anymore, as they can easily get 72% double shot 100% of the time:

20 deepwood tier 5
25 arcane archer cores
8 epic quiver
10 epic feat
9 epic pl stance -72%

[Lonnbeimnech]

Btw pure rangers dont even need 10k stars anymore, as they can easily get 72% double shot 100% of the time:

20 deepwood tier 5
25 arcane archer cores
8 epic quiver
10 epic feat
9 epic pl stance -72%

+20% from killer

So manyshot will give a whopping +8% doubleshot for 20 seconds? Might as well make it a stance and get rid of the duration.

[FedoraSire]

elfs already can get dex to damage so they're covered with dc= stat used for bow damage

Thou hast convinced me! /Signed!

Can Monkchers get Wis to Damage, or just To-Hit? (Don't need them exploding forums,and I don't own monk to check myself xD)

Edit: Post below me says they can't get WIS to damage

[Augon]

I like the changes to Arrow Stances. Specifically the AP cost and "on save" affects.

I love the fact elemental arrows can be useful.

I love the Crit damage multiplier increase in core 18

I find it odd that after using Wisdom as the basis of the saves, you get a bonus to Dexterity as the capstone. In affect, an AA is a bit of a DC caster, I would think boosting the stat that the DC is based on would be important.

As I said in another post, I do not like the idea of nerfing Slayer arrow.

I do see the logic of using Wisdom as the DC stat. afterall an AA is basically casting spells using his bow and Wisdom is a Rangers casting stat. I could also see the logic in making it Intelligence, though, since the spells he is casting are more similar to arcane spells than divine spells. Of course the biggest issue for the player with making it Wisdom is that Wisdom is the only stat with no way of adding its mod to damage.

As others have stated, I've usually dumped Wisdom on my rangers. Ranger spells are terrible so it didn't matter too much to me. One thing that could possible be added is WIS to damage.

Something I would love to see done with Rangers is fixing their spell casting. Ranger spells are terrible (especially the laughable summoning spells). I know there is no way to do that this update, but it would be nice to be addressed at some point.

Thanks folks for working on this. Change is always refreshing.

[Jetrule]

Any way that Manyshot can break the 100% cap to double shot thus giving 2 or 3 arrows while active and the boost to ranged power?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The current Paralyzing DC is 26; most of my Rangers would have this exact same DC right now, without switching anything.

(only thing I hate about it is it makes Monchers more powerful. )

[Vellrad]

Thou hast convinced me! /Signed!

Can Monkchers get Wis to Damage, or just To-Hit? (Don't need them exploding forums,and I don't own monk to check myself xD)

Edit: Post below me says they can't get WIS to damage

to hit there's feat, zen archery.
to damage, no idea.

[Faltout]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

1. But then Manyshot is not actually Manyshot right? It's Oneshot.

2. You are thinking with big numbers. Like, "This ranger does 4000 with manyshot. Ok, I will increase the damage of an individual shot to 4000 to save arrows". But, what about all the fluff that firing more arrows entails? If you are not interested in damage (yes, there are times when you don't care about how much damage you do... shocker for most of the community) and are instead interested in how many arrows with special effects you will fire (like paralyzing, inferno shots, shattermantle, dispelling, slayer, destruction, banishing, terror, etc.)?

Ok, it's your ability and your servers that are handling the load of the extra arrows. But, if you do this remember that it will be considered a lame change from roleplayers, lore players, non-damage dealing players. And the game has lots of those.

Not saying there shouldn't be a change (as I advocated in my previous post). There are numerous other ways to nerf the power of monkchers that comes from those abilities (monkchers are getting a buff with paralyzing, terror, banishing arrows right now).