Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[SirShen]

Why only Wisdom Modifier? should it not be wisdom and dexterity as they are the states you can take in the tree?

Well if it stays only wisdom modifier, think ill just stick with the elemental arrows in epics.

Also Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

• Dexterity bonus increased to +4

That is so weak to the other two enhancement trees. Also if your forcing arrow DC to wisdom should this not be +4 bonus to wisdom and dex? Also why no Ranged Power?

[HastyPudding]

Seriously? Wisdom as a primary stat? Are you deliberately trying to make people play monkchers as the only viable longbow class? This is, by far, the most disgusting thing I've ever heard you guys come up with. There's no excuse for this. Words simply cannot express my irritation, right now.

Are you deliberately trying to make me quit DDO?

[Grailhawk]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

[redoubt]

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

Its just a partial pass that they don't want to wait to put in. More is coming.

First I'm coming from the perspective of Elf to access AA and not Ranger.

• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses

I personally enjoy a 12/8 Elf Fighter/Wizard. My primary attribute is Dexterity. While I don't ignore wisdom I'm trying to understand why Dexterity Modifier is not an OR option. To me Dexterity works well especially with Elf and leveraging Grace's Dexterity to Damage.

I understand that wisdom is a recommended attribute for Rangers but most builds only go for enough wisdom to meet spell level which is needing to hit 14.

Also the fact that most Arcane classes are either Intelligence based or Charisma based.

I would like to ask if possible to allow this to be the highest of Wisdom/Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma.

This would open up more build options for the AA tree as well as remove the advantage a Monk AA build would have over other builds.

I do understand that Wizard AA builds do get an advantage with access to a Spell Focus Feat(s) so that might also need to be considered.

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I like the elemental arrow direction - especially the spell power part, may even consider these with this type of change.

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As pointed out by another poster. Are we going to see a change in the Doubleshot penalty from Manyshot/10K Stars?

I think WISDOM is the right call for the DC in the ranger version of the tree. If you come into the tree from Elf, I think it should be an INT/CHA version.

18 Levels of Ranger, or elf / high elf i assume?

Actually, if they put it only in the ranger version it prevents monchers from getting it. I'd like to see this sort of differentiation between the two AA trees.

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

Some things the same, but definitely different. I think the elf one should be more magic focused and the ranger one be based more on physical stuff.
Another way to do it would be to make them Arcane Archer and "Ranger" Archer (I need a better word.) I.e. Arcane Archer has things that come from arcane spells like arrows of holding. Ranger would have Snare Arrows. Arcane archer would have a banish and the ranger version would do bane damage to creature un-"Natural" to this plane. Stuff like that.

As monkchers are mostly the only build with WIS as a main stat, having ONLY Wisdom is unfair to the class AA is made for. To satisfy multiple parties, the DCs should work like this:

Base DC+ Stat modifer that your bow's to-hit uses + the other bonuses

This way, three options are available for AA:
Int-based using Harper, to the boon of ARCANE casters
Dex-based using DWS' Improved Finesse/Elven Grace, for elven ____, and the ranger in general
Wis-based (maybe add enhancement that allows WIS to damage, possibly to-hit for pure ranger w/o ki compatability portion?), so the monkchers don't destroy the forums in rage at nerfs.


There's no reason it couldn't be coded, as assassins get the option of INT or DEX for their DCs.

I think DEX is the wrong stat for the DCs. At the same time, I think the elf version should use INT/CHA (arcane stats) and the ranger version should use WIS (ranger stat).

Why a Wis Modifier?

Rangers DUMP Wis!

Make a choice. I don't think every class / build / tree should be able to do everything. That some have been allowed to do so is a mistake. Maybe they are going to start fixing that, but if we continue to drive them to make all builds "Master of all Trades" then it will be our own fault.

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Bingo!

[barecm]

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

I think you are referring to my statement of giving up paralyzing on Tier 2 TF for elemental damage. It was not a complaint, but rather an observation/theory craft of how things would go. So, it looks like it will be the way. Also jumbled up in that statement was the ask for a second red slot on bows to compare with other 2 handed weapons. Or, maybe a red slot in a quiver.

[blerkington]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Hi,

Usually I find myself agreeing with you, but:

These abilities aren't spells, so there's no reason to tie them to a non core stat for the sake of 'consistency'.

Using WIS instead of DEX hands more power to monkchers. That build is already doing quite well from this enhancement pass because of its higher RoF. More projectiles means more damage per time unit from the imbues, and using WIS as the basis for DC amounts to a double reward.

Using DEX as the basis for the DC would be a way for pure DEX builds to be better than monk splashes in one area. If you're uncomfortable with that, then other solutions includes using the better of DEX or WIS (not my preferred option, but better than WIS alone), or using something else, like ranger class levels.

Thanks.

[geoffhanna]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Incorrect.

Arcane Archers are INT based. They are Arcane. The DC should be INT-based as well.

[Wh070aa]

And now you need wisdom too?

Well my AA build is totally killed. Repeter rangers are gonna suffer a lot. Reduced stun timers will kill switching weapons after stunning stuff.

I DON'T WANT TO PLAY MONKCHER!

Give this tree +4 wis in the end on top of the dex, and make the stances work with bolts. If you nerf slayer arrow, AA will be left unused. You already are nerfing the stun arrows hardcore, and since there are only 3 abilities that anyone cares about in AA (Conjure Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, and slayer arrow). Asking us to invest into Wis on top of it is just bad, since you can't hit any DC's in this game without absolutely maxing the stat.

Also change the Doubleshot bonus to something else. Manyshot makes it absolutely worthless.

[Apollos713]

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Absolutely agree. WIS is the right stat, and can make AA archers a different type of build from DWS archers.

[HatsuharuZ]

It occurs to me that there are more than a few abilities that can be tied to more than one stat. Most ED abilities, for one.

How about a choice of INT or WIS? Or INT, WIS or DEX?



Geez people, why do you all rage about the smallest things? Suggesting an alternative is much more useful than raging.

[Faltout]

Finally a sane update to a tree. I don't think too much power was added.

1. Updating paralyzing/terror/banishing arrows was a good thing. Using WIS as the DC stat is the right choice since it forces the players to make a meaningful hard CHOICE (how many years have we had since one of THOSE were introduced?). And it is still viable without max WIS. Since arrows get spammed, 1 in 20 arrows will succeed in paralyzing or terrorizing the enemy for 6 seconds. So, it's still better than the initial paralyzing that would work 5% of the time and paralyze for 3 seconds. And then if someone wants to make this ability work more often, he can make the DC go to 50 (20 + 20 WIS mod + 4 AA enhancements + 3 item + 3 feats) and work more than once per 20 shots. The difference between this ability and DC casting is that casting takes time and sp, while this ability is spammable. So, a spell landing 100% of the time is equivalent to an arrow landing 5% of the time. (19 difference in DCs)

2. Elemental arrows are updated (yay). Good call to scale with spell power. Another effect the archer should slot in his gear, another choice.

3. Good call to not update dispelling arrows. Currently, dispelling arrows also remove debuffs from the monsters. That makes them unusable when the party has stacked some debufs on them (or you have used inferno shot to stack fire damage which gets removed by dispel shots). Probably a good idea to revamp dispel altogether before this change. Don't forget to write that down in the documentation about the AA pass so future developers will be able to see that something is incomplete.

The bad:

4. WIS is the main stat of monkchers making this build even more powerful. Isn't it about time you prevented 10k stars to not work with manyshot or not work with bows and arrows and instead work with shurikens? The monks getting more out of the arrow DCs is a good thing (choices choices). However, the 2 other abilities were broken to begin with.

5. Isn't it about time you removed the doubleshot penalty (or most of it) for pure rangers? How about (as already suggested) you reduce the penalty to -30% or -40% in the AA capstone?

Overall, this tree needs the choice of what arrows to use against certain enemies (something that had eclipsed from DDO - everyone uses a main weapon against everything), it provides CC for some interesting play (if only deepwood had some more interesting choices...) and does not have too much damage (at least I didn't see anywhere increases to ranged power/extra bow damage/extra bow dice).
Good pass.

[Mryal]

Absolutely agree. WIS is the right stat, and can make AA archers a different type of build from DWS archers.

Yea, of course...DEX is alredy favored on other ranger trees, and INT isnt even a stat for ranger, wis IS the obvious choice.If youre not using high wis theres elemental stances to use instead wich got a HUGE boost, people are failing to see that.
IF the devs are open to allow a multiselector between dex/wis or best of dex/wis then i'd agree, but replacing WIS with another stat would be completly stupid, for reasons i mentioned before.

[CeltEireson]

I am another looking for solutions to the doubleshot penalty. Otherwise it's hard to add in any doubleshot bonuses into the tree.

Any chance of scaling summon arrows with cores, so we can have +2 to +5 arrows? (trying to adapt PnP enhance arrow).

Yeah, without a solution to the double shot penalty for rangers the capstone is weak. With no double shot penalty capstone is reasonable.

The scaling of arrows is not really any use past low levels as its only the higher of bow enhancement bonus or arrows that counts and most epic bows are in the range +5 - +12.

[Severlin]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

[Kielbasa]

If the goal is to make monkchers better... Success. If the goal was to make a viable ranger tree you have some work to do. As much as I can see the argument for wisdom based dc abilities most people will go dex for their primary stat through dws and for more reflex save. Wisdom based just overly complicates things. So does scaling the imbues with spell power and not ranged power. The capstone needs some help something like advanced ninja training; extra arrows based off your dex score would help the ranger version of the tree tremendously.

Now if you want to have wisdom/intelligence based abilities and scaling imbues based off spell power in the elf version of the tree I would be all for that.

The ranger version of the tree needs to synergize with the other two ranger trees.

[blerkington]

Hi,

The other elephant in the room for archery is manyshot + slayer arrow + adrenaline from FOTW.

One interesting way to promote some diversity in archer builds might be to split the slayer arrow ability into a choice of two things. When you select that enhancement, you get one or the other of two options, but not both.

Option A is the slayer arrow we have now. Left as is for those who like their burst DPS.

Option B adds a lot of doubleshot and reduces or removes the doubleshot penalty after manyshot. This option would cater for people who want to use their bows 24/7 and prefer more even damage output and more proc chances over big burst damage.

Math types can plug in the values for slayer arrow damage and doubleshot bonus so that neither one of the two styles gets ahead. I'd also like to suggest that there be a doubleshot penalty be added after 10k stars so that there's some parity between monk and non monk builds.

Thanks.

Edit: Didn't see Severlin's post when I wrote this. Could still be useful anyway.

[mikarddo]

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

Other 2h TF weapons get to pick all 3 tiers of effects AND get two red slots. Bows get 3 tiers + 1 red slot. Its really a no-brainer that Bows as 2h weapons should get 2 red slots. As for what to actually slot in the 3 tiers and the 2 red slots - thats a different matter but it has no real bearing on Bows needing another red slot.

[Arlathen]

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

• Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
• Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?

Would love to comment on this, but these are really important points when considering these changes.

Edit: Thanks for teasing these changes, there very relevant to the ranged players out there.

[HatsuharuZ]

People talk about monkchers, but I don't see all that many of those these days...

[Lonnbeimnech]

Think tying the Dc of banish/smite/para arrows to wisdom is a bad idea, as it rewards monkchers too much.