Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[archerforever]

The only way to make racial AA viable for the different classes is to make sure most of what you need to be an archer is in the tree and the most fundamental archery feats.

It is a good idea, even if the fact to be able to play arcane archer regardless of the class is already very good and unique, the cost in AP make it really restrictive and ultra focused. As core enhancements have levels requierements, I think it could work like this:

Racial Arcane Archer ( all core cost increased to 2 AP)
-Core 1: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Bow Strength" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 1 (ranger got this feat lvl 1)
-Core 2: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Rapid Shot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 4 (ranger got this feat lvl 2)
-Core 3: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Precise Shot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 8 (ranger got this feat lvl 4)
-Core 4: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Manyshot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 15 (ranger got this feat lvl 6)
-Core 5: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Improved Precise Shot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 22 (ranger got this feat lvl 11)

Like this, you can have an avaible AA racial tree, opening lot of interesting builds possibilities. The fact to get similar feats at higher levels make it in my opinion balanced for a cost of 24 AP minimum.

Even if I really like this idea and think it s a good thing to have AA as a racial enhancement if you want, it s still an opened door for all other race to get a class enhancement tree as racial. (Half orc --> Frenzied Berserker, Dwarf --> Stalwart Defender, ect....)

Also, not allowing the assorted casting stats to be used for AA DC's is once again ignoring that AA is a racial tree as well as a Ranger tree. Yes, for Rangers it makes sense to force it to be Wisdom, if you want to force a split between stats. For Racial AA's, it should be a choice (either highest stat or a toggle you set) between the three in-game caster DC stats: Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

Yes, I must agree with this but not 100%. Ranger AA DC based on Wisdom only is logical but for the Racial AA, it should be Wisdom or Intelligence only. No reason to be able to get charisma as DC for an AA.

[eachna_gislin]

Duplicate

[eachna_gislin]

It is a good idea, even if the fact to be able to play arcane archer regardless of the class is already very good and unique, the cost in AP make it really restrictive and ultra focused. As core enhancements have levels requierements, I think it could work like this:

Racial Arcane Archer ( all core cost increased to 2 AP)
-Core 1: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Bow Strength" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 1 (ranger got this feat lvl 1)
-Core 2: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Rapid Shot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 4 (ranger got this feat lvl 2)
-Core 3: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Precise Shot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 8 (ranger got this feat lvl 4)
-Core 4: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Manyshot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 15 (ranger got this feat lvl 6)
-Core 5: cost 2 AP ---> Same as ranger AA AND you also gain the feat "Improved Precise Shot" ---> Avaible at Character lvl 22 (ranger got this feat lvl 11)

Like this, you can have an avaible AA racial tree, opening lot of interesting builds possibilities. The fact to get similar feats at higher levels make it in my opinion balanced for a cost of 24 AP minimum.

When I said "The only way to make racial AA viable for the different classes is to make sure most of what you need to be an archer is in the tree and the most fundamental archery feats." I wasn't saying AA's should get five free feats in the tree.

I was saying the fundamental feats every archer takes, combined with the enhancements in the AA tree, should be enough to make a viable archery build.

But re-read my suggestion. I suggest the devs give Racial AA's *two* feats for free: Precise Shot and Improved Precise shot. That's in line with other changes they've made to other weak classes/trees (paladins getting the two Cleave enhancement-feats).

It's in no way reasonable to claim giving Racial AA's five feats for free is balanced for a cost of 24 ap.

Even if I really like this idea and think it s a good thing to have AA as a racial enhancement if you want, it s still an opened door for all other race to get a class enhancement tree as racial. (Half orc --> Frenzied Berserker, Dwarf --> Stalwart Defender, ect....)

I would like to see the devs give every race their racial tree, but I highly doubt they're willing to put in the work. They'd rather turn out recycled content they can charge the player base for than give anything significant for "free".

Yes, I must agree with this but not 100%. Ranger AA DC based on Wisdom only is logical but for the Racial AA, it should be Wisdom or Intelligence only. No reason to be able to get charisma as DC for an AA.

Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks are casters with Charisma-based DCs.

As usual, Varg ignored all the useful feedback in this thread and insisted on pushing through the original changes. So, instead of fixing archery, the devs re-designed the trees to make it *harder* to be an archer. Now you have to scratch around to try to get Enchantment DC increases and/or spellpower, while still having no ranged power, and trying to boost a casting stat that's only useful for Monks and divines.

I want to know where my Heart of Wood is, because my toon just became unplayable.

Edit: it appears I can swap all my feats for free. Time to go rebuild my toon.

[Holleyz]

Cant we have anything SACRED in this game anymore? I am BEGGING you to please put the AA Ranger back to the way it was before. But with my old Arrow of Slaying.

[eachna_gislin]

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

I feel they should be close to identical. I will say I'm looking at it from the perspective of a Racial AA player. I'm not a big fan of Rangers (I just happen to prefer divines like clerics and paladins).

I'm ok with the varying levels of cores between Ranger and Racial. It helps "pay" for the cost of Racial AA's counting their race as "pure" for the prestige (and thus being able to multiclass at no extra cost).

I think Racial archers should get two enhancement-based feats (either in cores or in tree tiers) to simulate Precise Shot and Improved Precise shot. Rangers get their archery feats for free, and there are too many feat-starved classes with blue bars that can't afford feats for their actual class if they are bow users to not ease up the pressure on bow feats at least a little. Two kinda-free feats feels like a good balance: it really *helps* seven feat classes, but doesn't overpower classes with bonus feats.

I think Racial AA's should be able to choose between casting stats rather than force using Wisdom for DC checks (select between Intelligence, Charisma, Wisdom). I'm aware this will still preferentially benefit monks, but the devs won's consider any changes that won't benefit monks, so I'm resigned to it. I don't want to see Racial AA bards, wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks forced to build for Wisdom, Dexterity, _and_ their casting stat (plus Con). That's a huge tax on top of feats and enhancements for Racial builds.

I did think Racial AA's should get +6 Ranged Power to make up for buying their ranged feats, but apparently the +6 Melee Power has been dropped from the melee feat lines so that's a moot point. If that +6 melee power gets restored I will go back to advocating Ranged Power for Racial AA's.

I finally think the devs need to decide what the "purpose" is in-game for archers and re-work bows to be functional in that role. Repeaters are fast-hitting ranged weapons, and great crossbows are heavy hitting ranged weapons, so bows need to be something other than either of those. My personal thoughts would be something very steady and not dependent on burst damage, _or_ having AoE effects attached to arrows, but it's obviously not up to me .

That bow work is something that would need to be done outside of the tree (in the same way re-working crossbow reloads benefited mechanics, but was meant for all crossbow users in game and not just rogues).

[Arkai]

Repeaters are fast-hitting ranged weapons, and great crossbows are heavy hitting ranged weapons, so bows need to be something other than either of those.

Bows used to be better than repeaters just for the old manyshot and 10k. Now, I have to admit I'm hating all the archer builds I tried in Lammania and just gave up on playing an archer.

My hopes are now in the arti pass (:

[unbongwah]

Disclaimer: I haven't had a chance to test AA changes thoroughly. These are just my impressions based on the releases notes, other posters, etc.

tl;dr summary: I think AA DPS has gotten even more backloaded than it already was, unfortunately. The good news is full-time archers should see DPS improvements in epics, but only after significant gear changes / build investment. People who only "dabbled" with Manyshot will also lose out, because they won't have the Doubleshot investment necessary to improve it.

Manyshot changes makes this a much more back-loaded DPS buff:

• BAB 6: old - 2x dmg; new - 1.24 (doubleshot) * 1.24 (Ranged Power) = 1.54x dmg
• BAB 11: old - 3x dmg; new - 1.44 * 1.44 = 2.07x dmg
• BAB 16: old - 4x dmg; new - 1.64 * 1.64 = 2.67x dmg

Some of that lost DPS will be offset by increased dmg from imbues - and Doubleshot bonuses in later levels - but in low-to-mid-heroics I expect most AAs to feel weaker than they were, unfortunately. The good news is that MS continues to provide DPS improvements as BAB rises, whereas old MS was capped at 4 arrows. Also the elimination of the Doubleshot penalty means once you have a decent set of DS bonuses - let's say 25% AA cores + 10% gear & guild buff + 20% Killer - your DPS continues to improve.

• BAB 20: 2.35 * 1.8 = 4.23x dmg
• BAB 24: 2.51 * 1.96 = 4.92x dmg
• BAB 28: 2.77 * 2.12 = 5.87x dmg <- assumes Doubleshot ED feat and Div Power or Tensers for max BAB

Combined with the extra dmg from elemental arrows, endgames AAs should see a significant DPS increase...once they build to exploit the new mechanics. Grailhawk raised good points about AA vs DWS tier-5s; I suspect for FotW builds, Slaying Arrow is still best, but for other EDs, DWS might be better for sustained DPS. For the "casual" Manyshotters without Doubleshot bonuses, I'd expect dmg at cap to be ~4.5x, which is actually better than it was; but at lower levels it'll be a lot weaker.

Speaking of Doubleshot, the good news is it's actually useful now to AAs. The bad news is most DS bonuses aren't available until fairly late, which again will make AA DPS feel more backloaded. Since it is useful, though, I would recommend replacing one of the AA action boosts with Doubleshot boost; this will help folks cross the 200% Doubleshot threshold in epics for guaranteed double-procs during Manyshot.

Likewise, Spellpower is now useful to boosting imbues and rgrs have plenty of skill pts to spare for Spellcraft. The downside, ofc, is figuring out where to slot Spellpower. Wind bracers are a nice option for heroic leveling, since they not only boost Magnetism / Shock arrows, but also grant Blurry, Dodge, and (at higher lvls) Air Guard. No clue what to go for in epics, unless you should just slot the relevant Spellpower in your bow?

I still think there should've been some Ranged Alacrity bonuses: maybe +3% in the cores so you have +15% with capstone? But maybe it's not necessary; I'd have to see some endgame DPS tests.

Finally, I'm a little disappointed Turbine didn't do more to improve pure rgr AAs - beyond DWS bonuses, I mean, which are nothing to sneer at - so they could compete better with monkchers. Like my Hail of Arrows idea: why doesn't anybody just do what I tell them to do? So I expect monkchers will continue to rule the roost, unless I'm overlooking something; 10K Stars + higher DCs on imbues is tough to overcome. It'll mostly be a matter of how much multiclassing they do. Pure or almost-pure monk will get the most out of 10K Stars; but I think the DWS bonuses also make rgr 4-6 worth considering. Monk 12 / rgr 6 / <splash> 2 may make a comeback.

[EllisDee37]

Likewise, Spellpower is now useful to boosting imbues and rgrs have plenty of skill pts to spare for Spellcraft. The downside, ofc, is figuring out where to slot Spellpower. Wind bracers are a nice option for heroic leveling, since they not only boost Magnetism / Shock arrows, but also grant Blurry, Dodge, and (at higher lvls) Air Guard. No clue what to go for in epics, unless you should just slot the relevant Spellpower in your bow?

Slotting it in a weapon is probably ideal, except that you have to choose just one if you go that route. (But you get implement.)

Thunderforge tier 1 with potency +100 is probably the way to go if you use various elements, or tier 1 spell power +150 for a given element.

Another option if you do a lot of ETRing would be an Epic Ring of Elemental Essence. (+90 acid/cold/electric/fire)

But you're right about wind bracers. If you just use electrical, and can craft masterful, you can get +90 electric spell power from the bracers at ML13.

[eachna_gislin]

Disclaimer: I haven't had a chance to test AA changes thoroughly. These are just my impressions based on the releases notes, other posters, etc.

tl;dr summary: I think AA DPS has gotten even more backloaded than it already was, unfortunately. The good news is full-time archers should see DPS improvements in epics, but only after significant gear changes / build investment. People who only "dabbled" with Manyshot will also lose out, because they won't have the Doubleshot investment necessary to improve it.

Thanks for all the number breakdowns, it's always helpful when someone takes the time to do this.

Speaking of Doubleshot, the good news is it's actually useful now to AAs. The bad news is most DS bonuses aren't available until fairly late, which again will make AA DPS feel more backloaded. Since it is useful, though, I would recommend replacing one of the AA action boosts with Doubleshot boost; this will help folks cross the 200% Doubleshot threshold in epics for guaranteed double-procs during Manyshot.

As a heroic, racial player, I've seen a small increase in my average DPS, but a big drop from Manyshot (which I didn't expect given that I had thought most of the impact to Manyshot was epic).

Likewise, Spellpower is now useful to boosting imbues and rgrs have plenty of skill pts to spare for Spellcraft. The downside, ofc, is figuring out where to slot Spellpower. Wind bracers are a nice option for heroic leveling, since they not only boost Magnetism / Shock arrows, but also grant Blurry, Dodge, and (at higher lvls) Air Guard. No clue what to go for in epics, unless you should just slot the relevant Spellpower in your bow?

For heroics I'm using BTA Bracers of Wind + a cannith crafted ring of Corrosion spellpower + an Impulse augment in my Silver Longbow.

This gives me three arrows (shock, force, acid) to use. The other two elemental spots will be spent on the spellpower boosts instead of arrow imbues. I'm toying with only using force plus one element when I hit epics, but for heroics I have enough gear slots that this is fine.

[unbongwah]

Slotting it in a weapon is probably ideal, except that you have to choose just one if you go that route. (But you get implement.)

True, but the AA tree is clearly geared towards maxing out one imbue element; having two or more imbues waters down each one.

Thunderforge tier 1 with potency +100 is probably the way to go if you use various elements, or tier 1 spell power +150 for a given element.

It seems unfortunate to have to give up one of the T1 DPS options for Spellpower, though, if that can be slotted elsewhere.

Another option if you do a lot of ETRing would be an Epic Ring of Elemental Essence. (+90 acid/cold/electric/fire)

I like this idea since it lets you respec the AA tree to whatever element is best for the quests you're running without needing to regear. Enhancement swaps are easy; farming new gear, not so much.

Thinking about it some more, if you're lucky enough to run with a Warchanter, you can just barely hit sustainable 100% Doubleshot:

25% AA cores
20% DWS tier-5
20% Killer
10% Doubleshot ED feat
+9% Doubleshot EPL x3
+8% enhancement (quiver)
+6% Reckless Chant
+2% guild buff
100% Doubleshot

Which is great since when you use a special ranged atk like Sniper Shot (while MS/10K are on CD), you want to know you'll get a guaranteed extra proc.

[Failedlegend]

I've unfortunately only been able to contribute a little to this discussion as I've been very busy but I am NOT impressed to see that despite complaints for obvious reasons (including my own) AA remains so ONLY wisdom based characters can be AAs now...it's called ARCANE archer it should be Int if only one stat otherwise highest mental stat.

Oh well Bows have always kind of felt super slow anyways, i have even more reason to ignore them now...its a shame though I actually found my Bardcher and Wizard AA to be quite enjoyable despite that.

[Vargouille]

I'm a little disappointed Turbine didn't do more to improve pure rgr AAs - beyond DWS bonuses, I mean, which are nothing to sneer at - so they could compete better with monkchers.

As previously stated, we didn't expect these changes to fix Arcane Archers completely, and it was not "the Arcane Archer pass" per se.

We're pretty confident nearly every idea for 'pure ranger AAs vs. monckhers' fix has both its proponents and detractors. We know a lot of players have ideas they really like, and often we really like, but the tradeoffs between the different builds are fairly complicated, especially since it's not a binary thing. Even just between "pure ranger" and "pure monk Elven AA" and "some monk and some ranger levels" which is of course multiple builds in of itself -- and that's really only likely touching on Elven AA options. There's some balance in all of those options right now, though that doesn't mean one won't prove more popular or just more often "mathematically" right. At least now there is meaningful gain and loss for monk and ranger levels up to 12 (taking class feats and Core enhancements into account), plus AP considerations for Elven AA, which is otherwise quite good for some builds.

Cant we have anything SACRED in this game anymore? I am BEGGING you to please put the AA Ranger back to the way it was before. But with my old Arrow of Slaying. IF you do not then you have just lost this customer for good.

Which old Arrow of Slaying? It didn't change (itself) in Update 28.1. Do you mean the version from Update 18?

[FranOhmsford]

As previously stated, we didn't expect these changes to fix Arcane Archers completely, and it was not "the Arcane Archer pass" per se.

We're pretty confident nearly every idea for 'pure ranger AAs vs. monckhers' fix has both its proponents and detractors. We know a lot of players have ideas they really like, and often we really like, but the tradeoffs between the different builds are fairly complicated, especially since it's not a binary thing. Even just between "pure ranger" and "pure monk Elven AA" and "some monk and some ranger levels" which is of course multiple builds in of itself -- and that's really only likely touching on Elven AA options. There's some balance in all of those options right now, though that doesn't mean one won't prove more popular or just more often "mathematically" right. At least now there is meaningful gain and loss for monk and ranger levels up to 12 (taking class feats and Core enhancements into account), plus AP considerations for Elven AA, which is otherwise quite good for some builds.

Can you at least answer this question:

Why won't you make Manyshot and 10k Mutually Exclusive?

Then you could buff them both without worrying about the OPness of players utilising both!

[Spekdah_NZ]

Can you at least answer this question:

Why won't you make Manyshot and 10k Mutually Exclusive?

Then you could buff them both without worrying about the OPness of players utilising both!

Because that would make the build obsolete and a previously stated goal was not to go down that path. It's in the dev tracker somewhere.

[Failedlegend]

Because that would make the build obsolete and a previously stated goal was not to go down that path. It's in the dev tracker somewhere.

but killing every non-Wis based AA is totally ok for ARCANE archer?

[Ykt]

but killing every non-Wis based AA is totally ok for ARCANE archer?

This.

Either fix the language or allow Intelligence to be used in the AA enhancements.

Same goes for 10k STARS. Since when are arrows called STARS (except maybe in Sagittarius)?

[barecm]

I have to disagree with a lot of folks here and trust me when I say I am a ranged combat (bow) proponent. I agree that AA needs a little more, not a whole lot actually, but a little more. My suggestion is to add some additional doubleshot if that is the way we are doing things. To me, it appears that the devs either want you to be specced deep into ranged power or doubleshot. So, with DWS having +20 RP as the capstone, I think we need to boost the capstone for AA to 35%. Each level of core that the AA takes should add 2% Spell power for a total of 12%. I think those two changes should help.

The bigger issue for me is not AA, but rangers as a class. That is what needs the rework, not the enhancements. Enhancement buffs are fine, but it has the potential to make already powerful builds over the top. The bigger issue is the class of ranger being weak. They need more spells and ones that actually do something productive. The spells rangers have were basically developed when the game was lvl cap 10 and do not scale. There are a ton of useful spells that are in DnD that can be tapped into to help. Heck, you can even borrow some of the Druid spells to help. There needs to be something as a 4th lvl spell to help with damage. It does not need to be a ranger version of holy sword, but something that affects bows and finessed weapons only.

Now that the balance has passed, crit ranges have been reigned in, it should be easier to address rangers, their spells, and the damage they current do with bows vs monchers and other ranged toons that outclass them at virtually every turn. We can finally break the one thing folks come back to when arguing against improving rangers... break the line of specialization. The free feats given to rangers should be either ranged feats or twf feats, but not both. Then, we can really see some thought put into some higher level feats to make that specialized toon the master of either, but not mediocre at both.

[unbongwah]

As previously stated, we didn't expect these changes to fix Arcane Archers completely, and it was not "the Arcane Archer pass" per se.

Well, good to know the job's only half-done, at least...

Why won't you make Manyshot and 10k Mutually Exclusive?

Probably because they're trying to avoid "breaking" any builds as much as possible. Witness how they walked back the Holy Sword nerf to ranged weapons. Changing 10K / MS interaction would definitely qualify as build-breaking for monkchers who rely on both.

but killing every non-Wis based AA is totally ok for ARCANE archer?

They haven't "killed" non-monkcher AA builds - or at least, no worse than they were before U28.1. Monkchers have always had one major advantage over non-monkchers, namely 10K Stars; now they have two - higher DCs on AA imbues. But if you were playing a WIS-dumped AA, your Paralyzing DC was capped at 26, which is abysmal for epics; if you're playing a WIS-dumped AA post-U28.1, your DCs are...still abysmal, so you've lost nothing. In which case, you focus on the DPS imbues and ignore Paralyzing et al.

I'm disappointed they haven't yet added more goodies for non-monkchers; but since we now know they haven't finished with the AA pass, we might as well wait until they're done.

[barecm]

1
They haven't "killed" non-monkcher AA builds - or at least, no worse than they were before U28.1. Monkchers have always had one major advantage over non-monkchers, namely 10K Stars; now they have two - higher DCs on AA imbues. But if you were playing a WIS-dumped AA, your Paralyzing DC was capped at 26, which is abysmal for epics; if you're playing a WIS-dumped AA post-U28.1, your DCs are...still abysmal, so you've lost nothing. In which case, you focus on the DPS imbues and ignore Paralyzing et al.

I'm disappointed they haven't yet added more goodies for non-monkchers; but since we now know they haven't finished with the AA pass, we might as well wait until they're done.

Get elemental arrows and spec that spell power. It adds quite a bit of damage. Take all tiers for the same element.

[FranOhmsford]

Probably because they're trying to avoid "breaking" any builds as much as possible. Witness how they walked back the Holy Sword nerf to ranged weapons. Changing 10K / MS interaction would definitely qualify as build-breaking for monkchers who rely on both.

Replying to only half my post?

1) Making 10k and Manyshot mutually exclusive would only "break" those builds in as much as they'd need to go to Fred and swap out one of those feats!

2) Once those two feats are made mutually exclusive the Devs can work out the exact power level they want each feat to reach {and yes it should be higher than current for only one} and balance them properly!

Monks get to use 10k
Rangers get to use Manyshot
Ranger 11/Monk 9 or 18/2 or 14/6 etc. probably chooses to use Manyshot.
Monk 11/Ranger 9 or any other Monk mainline build probably chooses to use 10K
The two feats could be level based with each having a base, going up at Class Lvl 8 and Class Lvl 11 and have extra bonuses in Core AA and Ninja-Spy Enhancements.
So a Monk 11/Ranger 6/Paladin 3 could go full Ninja-Spy and get the full benefit of 10K Stars
OR
A Ranger 11/Monk 6/Rogue 3 could go full AA and get the full benefit of Manyshot.
OR
An Elf Fighter 20 could go full AA and get a weaker Manyshot because he wouldn't have the Class Lvl 8+11 Ranger Buffs.

BUT
No-one would be able to take BOTH!
Removing the single biggest Multiclass-Pure discrepancy in the game!