Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[dunklezhan]

So that really sucks. Why even call it "manyshot" if you don't actually shoot "many"?

True. Even trolls think 'many' is more than 2.

[redoubt]

This isn't a goal.


There's no goal of nerfing this playstyle per se.

You keep saying that like it means it is not happening or did not happen. My kids constantly try to use the "it was an accident" or "I didn't mean to" as a way to say it is not their fault. I'm constantly working on teaching them that you can be at fault regardless of motive. Just as Turbine can be at fault for what we are discussing with manyshot even if your intent is otherwise or your motive is elsewhere, you are still greatly affecting specific builds and play styles.

With respect to DCs:

A ranged ranger will most likely dump WIS and start with 8. To that you add a moderate +4 tome (because you had it anyway) and a +6 item at level 11 and later a +8 or 10 item. Assuming the +10 you get up to 22 WIS. This is more than enough to cast the highest level ranger spells.

By comparison, a moncher will max out wisdom, getting well over 50 and having a 10+ point advantage in DC. (This is in addition to already having the advantage of stacking 10k stars on top of the new increased "flat line" damage.)

With respect to manyshot:

Lots of good ideas have been posted over several years and mostly fallen on deaf ears. I realize that you don't want to make manyshot a "ranger thing", but with this change that is exactly what you are doing. Manyshot is already one of the hardest feats to justify without ranger levels. It requires two feats (only one of which would likely be taken on a non-ranger). It requires 17 DEX without counting items or enhancements, so this is a large commitment at creation for any non-DEX build.

Who do you see taking all of that just for 20 seconds of 2 arrows? Manyshot was good enough that people would use it when it was off timer and switch back to melee when it was on timer. I don't see manyshot being an improvement over melee DPS anymore, which will drive it even further into the "only on a ranger" position.


Finally, I still recommend you look at expanding on the differences in the two AA trees and build ranged functionality into the fighter trees. With just the two AA trees you could do at lease a couple things:
1. Use different stats for DC.
2. Put bonuses to things like manyshot into the cores of the ranger version of the AA tree. This would provide a place where a non-monk archer could catch up to a monk-archer.

[FestusHood]

Earlier developer post suggested that could change:



But reading back I also noticed this statement:



Which as far as I am reading says there's no difference between the "server performance" of doubleshot vs manyshot. I had assumed doubleshot was a chance at an additional "hit" whenever the current attack (projectile) landed - that is to say an additional "unit of damage" added on with the first hit, without having to compute an entirely new set of physics results. But this quote seems to indicate that it is an additional chance for a completely new projectile to be fired subject to all the same calculations as any other projectile.

If that's the case then given their desire to reduce projectiles I suppose the kind of doubleshot solution me and EllisDee are thinking wont fly. And therefore no solution that still offers up to four projectiles per volley will be making it live.

So that really sucks. Why even call it "manyshot" if you don't actually shoot "many"?

You can pretty easily see the extra arrows firing out from the bow. Half the time that's how i can tell how many i shot rather than watching the numbers. So it works differently than doublestrike, which is like a proc effect that generates after a hit takes place, rather than a separate attack, even though it may have a separate attack roll. Maybe they could rework doubleshot to work the same way. So you only ever actually fired one arrow, but then additional arrows would generate after the target is hit.

Then there are glancing blows, and i don't know how those are different. It is possible to land a glancing blow even if the main attack misses because of rolling a one. Is it possible to proc a doublestrike when the original hit rolls a one?

[Thar]

how about giving ranger another tier 4 or 5 that gives a cone shot effect on a cleave cooldown?

something to help multi mob dps.

[dunklezhan]

bunch of certainly valid stuff about Morninglord

I did forget to include where I see racials fitting in, and I do see where you're coming from - 14AP just to get AA is quite a hefty investment (3+ levels worth of AP) and you want to get some benefit from pumping wis on your iconic... except you aren't actually sacrificing much in terms of big choices (i.e. taking some ranger class levels, reducing your clericy sun elf goodness), those other elf racials you 'had' to take are by no means bad, and you're picking up a tree which is going to hugely boost the ranged attack damage you would have just from the minimum investments you need to be able to get the specialist arrows with DC on them.

This is whilst potentially divine nuking away happily anyway assuming cleric for sun elf.

That's quite a powerful racial the elves have got access to quite honestly. Imagine Horcs getting access to a barb tree or something like that (not that they have any DCs to worry about particularly anyway)?

Having said that, unless you've built for it, being an elf of any flavour does not grant manyshot etc. i.e. little to no burstiness. So I guess I should add the racial scenario to my list. I think the racial scenario should be

Improved sustainable DPS, acheivable DCs, /meh burstiness. burstiness hard to pump (requires class levels of some kind, presumably monk, since you wouldn't be taking ranger), sustainable DPS relatively easy to pump and DCs should be about as easy/hard to pump as an pure ranger AA would find it.


But how on earth you achieve that without linking the DCs to ranger level in some way or character level if routed through Elf I really don't know. And even then that would just mean every monkcher would suddenly be an elf, and they'll find a way to spread 14AP to not get hit with a lower DC by not having enough ranger levels.

So I still don't know the answer. I just know I can't think of another class where DCs are better if you are not a pure class.

[CrackedIce]

With respect to DCs:

A ranged ranger will most likely dump WIS and start with 8. To that you add a moderate +4 tome (because you had it anyway) and a +6 item at level 11 and later a +8 or 10 item. Assuming the +10 you get up to 22 WIS. This is more than enough to cast the highest level ranger spells.

By comparison, a moncher will max out wisdom, getting well over 50 and having a 10+ point advantage in DC. (This is in addition to already having the advantage of stacking 10k stars on top of the new increased "flat line" damage.)

With respect to manyshot:

I realize that you don't want to make manyshot a "ranger thing", but with this change that is exactly what you are doing. Manyshot is already one of the hardest feats to justify without ranger levels. It requires two feats (only one of which would likely be taken on a non-ranger). It requires 17 DEX without counting items or enhancements, so this is a large commitment at creation for any non-DEX build.

Who do you see taking all of that just for 20 seconds of 2 arrows? Manyshot was good enough that people would use it when it was off timer and switch back to melee when it was on timer. I don't see manyshot being an improvement over melee DPS anymore, which will drive it even further into the "only on a ranger" position.


Finally, I still recommend you look at expanding on the differences in the two AA trees and build ranged functionality into the fighter trees. With just the two AA trees you could do at lease a couple things:
1. Use different stats for DC.
2. Put bonuses to things like manyshot into the cores of the ranger version of the AA tree. This would provide a place where a non-monk archer could catch up to a monk-archer.

I really get the initial "huh" of wisdom stat for DC. but see very clearly that Rangers and non monk AA can obtain good DC.

I will come at this from two separate ways:

One - I have already proven that a dex based Character or Strength based ranger with average starting Dex can obtain ~50 standing DC. Check my prior posts for breakdown, but I did not account for all options. Banking all options available in game without maxing wisdom (16 starting and 1 level-up), one can obtain ~60 standing DC. this is not including on hit debuffs such as Dazing or frost improved elemental arrows (which I believe don't expire per description?)...or other such debuffs available in game...

Second - there are no other stats available for Devs to use for AA DC: intelligence is already used as main stat by repeater builds, KTA, Charisma already drives DM, and Dex and strength are generally the main stats for damage for ranged. there is too much synergy without the correct balance of opportunity cost.

Second point is more personal - I hate monks, but dislike going pure; why should I be debarred from taking racial AA on my Ranger for Core 5 and capstone? Designing Racial around the assumption that it will be taken in conjunction with Monk is false and limits player's ability to build AA outside of monk. Putting more power in the Ranger cores (assuming that that power will be picked up by monk splashes) that are not found in the racial AA tree is crippling all non-monk AA builds that want to go Ranged.

[Thrudh]

Manyshot + IPS + Slayer Arrow + Adrenaline should not be seen as a problem - but rather as a very positive thing exactly because it allows for a playstyle that actually differs! So, sure solve the lag issues claimed but stop seeing the burst damage playstyle as bad - anyway, if you really want to see burst damage look towards tree builds... Kindly dont nerf a fun playstyle thats at best a "B" build as right now.

I agree 100%... I love the burst DPS of most ranged builds... If they put out a flat (even if high) DPS all the time, I think ranged combat will be much more boring.

[redoubt]

Dex based archer can obtain 51 standing DC without sacrificing main stat. I think the goal for Dex based archer is to shoot for ~50 DC.

20 base starting

3 enchantment feats

1 elf DC

18 DC from Wisdom, 16 wisdom base + 4 tome + 3 enhancements (2 from AA tree) + 1 (level up spending) + 2 (fury destiny) + 3 insightful + 12 gear + 1 exceptional + 2 spooky bonus + 2 guild bonus= 46 wisdom

5 enchantment DC from sages cloak or 7 from ring from recent update

4 DC from AA tree

Okay, so you are building wisdom as if you were a primary caster and I don't think that is a fair comparison. If you are truly a dex or str based archer it would be more like:

10 DC from Wisdom, 8 wisdom base + 4 tome + 3 enhancements (2 from AA tree) + 3 insightful + 10 gear + 1 exceptional + 2 guild bonus= 31 wisdom
no bonus from feats because an actual archer doesn't have 3 feats (one in epic) to spend on DCs.
If you are not an elf, that's another -1.

This is 14 less than your contention.

Then consider a moncher who does actually max out wisdom due to how wisdom works with 10k stars.

18 start + 6 tome + 11 item + 3 insight + 1 exception +2 ship + 2 (AA enhance) + 7 level ups = 50

This is a +20 to DC versus a + 10.

I think wisdom makes sense for the ranger version of the AA tree (since it is the ranger casting stat) and INT/CHA should be used for the Elf version of the tree (since those are the arcane casting stats.).

[Aletys]

Dex based archer can obtain 51 standing DC without sacrificing main stat. I think the goal for Dex based archer is to shoot for ~50 DC.

20 base starting

3 enchantment feats

1 elf DC

18 DC from Wisdom, 16 wisdom base + 4 tome + 3 enhancements (2 from AA tree) + 1 (level up spending) + 2 (fury destiny) + 3 insightful + 12 gear + 1 exceptional + 2 spooky bonus + 2 guild bonus= 46 wisdom

5 enchantment DC from sages cloak or 7 from ring from recent update

4 DC from AA tree

I really get the initial "huh" of wisdom stat for DC. but see very clearly that Rangers and non monk AA can obtain good DC.

I will come at this from two separate ways:

One - I have already proven that a dex based Character or Strength based ranger with average starting Dex can obtain ~50 standing DC. Check my prior posts for breakdown, but I did not account for all options. Banking all options available in game without maxing wisdom (16 starting and 1 level-up), one can obtain ~60 standing DC. this is not including on hit debuffs such as Dazing or frost improved elemental arrows (which I believe don't expire per description?)...or other such debuffs available in game...

Second - there are no other stats available for Devs to use for AA DC: intelligence is already used as main stat by repeater builds, KTA, Charisma already drives DM, and Dex and strength are generally the main stats for damage for ranged. there is too much synergy without the correct balance of opportunity cost.

Second point is more personal - I hate monks, but dislike going pure; why should I be debarred from taking racial AA on my Ranger for Core 5 and capstone? Designing Racial around the assumption that it will be taken in conjunction with Monk is false and limits player's ability to build AA outside of monk. Putting more power in the Ranger cores (assuming that that power will be picked up by monk splashes) that are not found in the racial AA tree is crippling all non-monk AA builds that want to go Ranged.

Sorry, but you did not "prove" any such thing. Several of your assumptions are flawed and they assume the absolutely best case scenario, which is unrealistic:

At best I can see finding space for 2 enchantment feats (and that's with some serious nerfing), not 3, so -1 DC's to your total

Not sure what you mean by "1 elf DC", but I don't see anything in the elf tree that would add 1 DC. However not everyone runs an elf, so -1 for other races.

"18 from Wisdom" should be more like 15 from Wisdom (total 40 Wisdom), so -3 DC's to your total:

• Without seeing what the AA tree is actually going to look like, I don't see having room to take 3 wisdom in enhancements (so make it -1 to allow that one might actually be able to take 2)
• one does not always have the luxury of running only in fury, so -2 Wisdom for the rest of the time
• +12 gear is hard to come by, and only available at level 28. At level 28 the best my AA currently has is +11 (Epic Deific Diadem), so that's another -1
• Considering we have no idea what the final results for the "spooky" items are going to be, nor do we know how difficult they will be to obtain, I don't think this is a safe assumption. So, another -2

Sages Cloak is probably reasonable, though I'd have to give up my Mysterious Cloak, so I'd be trading survivability for DC's, but at least it's viable. The 7 from the ring is not for most players at this point in time, and again, requires level 28.

So, even a pure level 28 toon will likely only have DC's of 46, which is not enough assuming monster DC's of ~50. Anyone below that need not even bother. And, oh, to achieve that I'll be gimping my build in other areas, something a Wisdom based toon will not need to do.

That is certainly an improvement for AA rangers. ./sarcasm

[dunklezhan]

I think wisdom makes sense for the ranger version of the AA tree (since it is the ranger casting stat) and INT/CHA should be used for the Elf version of the tree (since those are the arcane casting stats.).

Interesting.

[dunklezhan]

I did forget to include where I see racials fitting in, and I do see where you're coming from - 14AP just to get AA is quite a hefty investment (3+ levels worth of AP) and you want to get some benefit from pumping wis on your iconic... except you aren't actually sacrificing much in terms of big choices (i.e. taking some ranger class levels, reducing your clericy sun elf goodness), those other elf racials you 'had' to take are by no means bad, and you're picking up a tree which is going to hugely boost the ranged attack damage you would have just from the minimum investments you need to be able to get the specialist arrows with DC on them.

This is whilst potentially divine nuking away happily anyway assuming cleric for sun elf.

That's quite a powerful racial the elves have got access to quite honestly. Imagine Horcs getting access to a barb tree or something like that (not that they have any DCs to worry about particularly anyway)?

When I wrote the above I had not realised that Elf Arcane archer suffered from a much slower core advancement in addition to it's up front 14AP cost. Can we tie the DCs to the core abilities somehow instead/also? That would give more ranger levels more direct benefit, and ultimately making racials equal if enough AP are invested, whilst lessening the benefit for monkchers and the like. Monkcher build would still be king of burst, which I think it probably should be, and Elves and pure rangers in general would be king of bow DCs and everyone else who gets access to the tree via multiclass gets to boost their sustained DPS to varying degrees regardless, which I think is also probably right.

No doubt I've missed some obvious problem.

[Faltout]

Sorry, but you did not "prove" any such thing. Several of your assumptions are flawed and they assume the absolutely best case scenario, which is unrealistic:

At best I can see finding space for 2 enchantment feats (and that's with some serious nerfing), not 3, so -1 DC's to your total

Not sure what you mean by "1 elf DC", but I don't see anything in the elf tree that would add 1 DC. However not everyone runs an elf, so -1 for other races.

"18 from Wisdom" should be more like 15 from Wisdom (total 40 Wisdom), so -3 DC's to your total:

• Without seeing what the AA tree is actually going to look like, I don't see having room to take 3 wisdom in enhancements (so make it -1 to allow that one might actually be able to take 2)
• one does not always have the luxury of running only in fury, so -2 Wisdom for the rest of the time
• +12 gear is hard to come by, and only available at level 28. At level 28 the best my AA currently has is +11 (Epic Deific Diadem), so that's another -1
• Considering we have no idea what the final results for the "spooky" items are going to be, nor do we know how difficult they will be to obtain, I don't think this is a safe assumption. So, another -2

Sages Cloak is probably reasonable, though I'd have to give up my Mysterious Cloak, so I'd be trading survivability for DC's, but at least it's viable. The 7 from the ring is not for most players at this point in time, and again, requires level 28.

So, even a pure level 28 toon will likely only have DC's of 46, which is not enough assuming monster DC's of ~50. Anyone below that need not even bother. And, oh, to achieve that I'll be gimping my build in other areas, something a Wisdom based toon will not need to do.

That is certainly an improvement for AA rangers. ./sarcasm

If noy in fury or not taking any WIS upgrades, then upgrade that +4 tome to +7.
Spooky is a go and already said to be EXTREMELY easy to obtain by design (one of the player complaints actually. The "challenges" are too easy and too boring and all it takes to get the augment is 2-3 runs of each challenge).
Also, +2 DC from augment.

Also, remember that you are not sacrificing anything to get those. You still have max DEX. Lower your DEX and lose some points of damage to get some more DC. Noone said you should have all. If you don't like that DC, go with elemental arrows instead.

[CrackedIce]

Okay, so you are building wisdom as if you were a primary caster and I don't think that is a fair comparison. If you are truly a dex or str based archer it would be more like:

10 DC from Wisdom, 8 wisdom base + 4 tome + 3 enhancements (2 from AA tree) + 3 insightful + 10 gear + 1 exceptional + 2 guild bonus= 31 wisdom
no bonus from feats because an actual archer doesn't have 3 feats (one in epic) to spend on DCs.
If you are not an elf, that's another -1.

This is 14 less than your contention.

After the pass, DC focued AA's will need to use wisdom as their secondary stat. 11+ Ranger levels allows a lower dex if going strength based. Dex based Archers can forgo strength completely since they, 1 - can either go for dex for damage in melee, or 2 - forgo melee completely in favor of a better archer/utility with caster splash/build.

In todays game, you can find builds that does not need both strength and dex and there should be no reason an AA cannot start with at least 14 wisdom. If you feel that you cannot start with that, then you are choosing to focus on other strengths/opportunities (and that's fine).

Splash one level of wizard in addition to Ranger levels and you will have feats available for enchantment focus - even more so should you only be focused on Ranged (not melee).

i.e. You are correct, you need to build your class mix based on going DC based - but this is a matter of course concerning DC's - You always need to build with DCs in mind even if you are a pure caster. And with that in mind, you can mix classes to allow for less sacrifice to pick up the extra DC you want. Case in point, an elf has to spend 10 points any to get to AA, why not spend some of them to get an extra 1 DC?

As far as the comparison to Monkcher and them already utilizing wisdom as a stat - The devs have already remarked that they are trying to create a way in which there is a reasonable reason to opt for AA without attaching it to 10k stars.

I think this discussion really is theoretical until Lam opens up where we can actually see the utility of a 35, 45, 50, 55 DC against mobs at varying levels.

[merkovah]

... All these thoughts are provided as a player who was playing arcane archers before enhancement trees and when raid groups would toss you if the words 'arcane archer' were uttered. There are many years of experience in my comments, all from playing my favorite character, the elven arcane archer ... currently a 12 cleric / 6 monk / 2 pal.

I really like flavor builds and having options to do something more than pew pew pew pew DPS. Also having the option to heal is very nice, and has saved more than one quest and raid.

Please open up the arcane archer to the more ARCANE aspects of its name.

With respect,

*** AHYMSA CELESTIAL***

*** The arcane arrows need to go up in enchantment value so at level 20 they are +5.

*** It seems odd for an arcane archer to have no way to deal with undead. If anything, disruption seems like a very plausible skill for an arcane archer ... right along line with smiting and banishment.

Perhaps give the option via a multiselector, where one can disrupt and is unable to smite.

*** Also, please make the elven arcane archer the same as the ranger arcane archer.

It's an ARCANE ARCHER, and the additional steps taken to be one by an elf (spending APs) to make a flavor build needs to be respected.

If arcane archer skills rely on ranger levels, then elven arcane archers are relatively pointless.

*** Also, some of the skills have been listed as requiring WIS for a DC.

As many others are expressing, we believe using the casters primary casting stat is clutch ... cha / int / or wis

*** OR perhaps make an ARCANE ARCHER STANCE

similar to swashbuckling, and there are a couple of tiers to it. A level 3 multi-selector that limits the choices its second tier.

*** Currently, the only real dps an arcane archer has is multi-shot/arrow of slaying/blah blah .... its really boring, honestly. As the only option to have high DPS as an arcane archer, its very limiting.

losing it as the ONLY option for DPS is a great thing ... give us MORE options!

Yet, those options needs to be interesting and actually playable.

Some ideas :

*** Elemental arrows have a lot of potential to be good if they add spellpower and have spell critical multipliers. It might bring the dps back.

*** Area of effect arrows make sense. like fireball / web.

*** Spell DCs and being able to choose spells would be nice.

*** Having a favored enemy feat can grant additional DC to DISRUPT, smite, paralyze, etc ... when targeting that enemy.

*** Being able to choose spells from my spellbook would be an awesome thing to do with arcane archers ... maybe have a 1% or 2% chance to proc a real spell.

So, an arcane archer who has fireball could enchant his arrows to once and a while have a fireball, or firewall.

An arcane archer who has heal spells might have arrows that trigger a mass cure light wound once in a while.

An elven arcane proccing an otto's dance sphere!

It might be extreme to make finger of death arrows.... yet it WOULD balance out the arrow of slaying for more caster type ARCANE archers.

[Aletys]

If noy in fury or not taking any WIS upgrades, then upgrade that +4 tome to +7.
Spooky is a go and already said to be EXTREMELY easy to obtain by design (one of the player complaints actually. The "challenges" are too easy and too boring and all it takes to get the augment is 2-3 runs of each challenge).
Also, +2 DC from augment.

Also, remember that you are not sacrificing anything to get those. You still have max DEX. Lower your DEX and lose some points of damage to get some more DC. Noone said you should have all. If you don't like that DC, go with elemental arrows instead.

Excuse me? A +7 tome? Not all of us have tons of cash lying around. This is a non-starter. If it requires a +7 tome to make it work, then it is nothing more than a cash grab by Turbine.

Further, I could achieve all the requirements on my monk with far less sacrifice, even allowing for the DEX requirement. I wouldn't need 3 levels of enchantment focus. I wouldn't need the new ring. Etc, etc, etc. And, I'd get the benefit of 10K stars to boot. The only ones this benefits are Monkchers. Sorry, this does not fly.

And, btw, I personally have nothing against monkchers. I just object to having to multi-class to be competent in the AA class.

[Aletys]

After the pass, DC focued AA's will need to use wisdom as their secondary stat. 11+ Ranger levels allows a lower dex if going strength based. Dex based Archers can forgo strength completely since they, 1 - can either go for dex for damage in melee, or 2 - forgo melee completely in favor of a better archer/utility with caster splash/build.

In todays game, you can find builds that does not need both strength and dex and there should be no reason an AA cannot start with at least 14 wisdom. If you feel that you cannot start with that, then you are choosing to focus on other strengths/opportunities (and that's fine).

Splash one level of wizard in addition to Ranger levels and you will have feats available for enchantment focus - even more so should you only be focused on Ranged (not melee).

i.e. You are correct, you need to build your class mix based on going DC based - but this is a matter of course concerning DC's - You always need to build with DCs in mind even if you are a pure caster. And with that in mind, you can mix classes to allow for less sacrifice to pick up the extra DC you want. Case in point, an elf has to spend 10 points any to get to AA, why not spend some of them to get an extra 1 DC?

As far as the comparison to Monkcher and them already utilizing wisdom as a stat - The devs have already remarked that they are trying to create a way in which there is a reasonable reason to opt for AA without attaching it to 10k stars.

I think this discussion really is theoretical until Lam opens up where we can actually see the utility of a 35, 45, 50, 55 DC against mobs at varying levels.

You are missing the point: It should NOT be NECESSARY to multi-class to be able to use a core enhancement. With these proposals it will be. The alternative will be to gimp the rest of the build. Not acceptable.

I can build a ranger with 14 wisdom with not too much sacrifice. I might even be able to get to 16 Wisdom, though there would definitely be sacrifices. I would be willing to do that if that allowed me to achieve the necessary DC's. Right now it simply won't.

[archerforever]

While you are all crying about DC based on wisdom, manyshot and 10k star gonna be "reworked" to not say ultra nerfed... https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ce-Change-post

Originally Posted by Severlin:
- Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)
- Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)


My opinon :

Even if it does theoretically the "same" amount of damage, it s loosing A LOT synergies with the adrenaline regeneration. Why ? Because to regen adrenaline, you have to land a Vorpal Strike, and ONLY 33% chance to regain 1 Adrenaline use on your vorpal. With your new manyshot, you only can shot 2 arrows and "maybe" a 3rd arrow if you have a max BAB with max doubleshot to have more than 100% doubleshot... That means, it s the end of fury shooter, they ll never be able to regen adrenaline. Dont forget that attack speed with bows is the worst in all the game from lvl 1 to lvl 28 (even with pinion and arcane archer set from Tower of despair !!!!). When you shoot 1 arrow, a fighter has already hit 2 times (maybe more) and can have doublestrike also.
Additionaly slaying arrow gonna be nerfed, archers gonna be really useless in high EE quests, no more utility on boss or champions to kill them fast, it s the end of burst damage literally.
With your new manyshot, a lvl 6 ranger gains .... 24% doubleshot for 20 seconds?!!!! hahahahahaha what a joke .... especially with 1 shot every 2 seconds... he gains 2 extra arrows over all the duration....
That s all the difference between manyshot and doubleshot. Even if you have doubleshot, this doubleshot bonus is a chance to proc an extra arrow. When you are using manyshot, that means that you need burst damage right now !!! you need to have 4x arrows for 20 seconds, you dont have to rely on your luck !! You have to be sure on your burst damage !!! imagine this in fight when you have to kill a champion running on you : "ho please god, proc an extra arrow, please, i need some extra damage now, please ..."

Fury shooters are dead... definitively... and maybe all epic archers...

**why not use blitz ? cause blitz is totally bugged, each time you pass through a door, your are loosing all stacks of your blitz. and 10% chance to get a stack of blitz is not good, especially with this amazing manyshot nerf... it should be every 10 or 15 successful attacks, but it is another story.

[blerkington]

Yup. Very disappointing. I was hoping I would get pulled back into playing with epic Shroud and Tempest Spine release but not if the build I played for the past two years will get hit by a nerf bat. I will give it a shot but from what I have seen so far, it will suck. So I guess I will get around uninstalling the game finally which is at this moment only taking place on my PC.

Hi,

What particularly gets on my nerves about this change is that it seems like after 28 pages the developers still don't even recognise it as an issue.

The importance of that short period of a high rate of fire to burst builds and melee/ranged hybrids has been brought up again and again, all to no avail.

All we have is some hints dropped about lag; once again, without anyone actually confirming that manyshot is a reliable and significant cause of it. The fact that this alleged lag is any sort of reason to make this change is even more puzzling given recent developer admissions about how projectile creation works with doubleshot.

It's pretty disappointing that the ranger pass is actually going to be harmful to a couple of staple ranger builds, when with a little more effort we could have a solution which was useful to everyone. Instead, we are going to see those builds downgraded without even so much as an explanation. Good job.

Thanks.

[Aletys]

A reminder that we don't expect this to be the last time we touch the Arcane Archer tree. We are sad we can't get to everything we'd like to right now, but realistically we're looking at a lot of work for update 29 coming soon, and we didn't want to push Arcane Archer entirely out of 2015. We do appreciate the many ideas here, though (some of which mirror ideas we've been thinking of anyway, or which are better than ideas we'd been thinking).

~snip~

Doubleshot and Manyshot both create additional real arrows in the world, each making their own separate, constant collision checks as they fly through the air.

It's not ideal. It's also deep in the code and risky to touch.

Additionally, it's not merely the collision checks that cause issues. Adding all of the extra on-hit effects (including damage effects) is not insignificant, and something we try to cut down on when we can. (For instance, in designing new items and abilities, etc.)

Frankly, I think most players would prefer that you let it slip past 2015, rather than doing only part of the job. The way it's going right now, between the wisdom to DC issue, and Manyshot, a lot of us are simply going to get rid of our arcane archers and play something else. It will become simply a splash tree for other classes. You keep saying that this is not your intention, but keep ignoring the player feedback. Just because you don't intend something, won't keep it from happening. I certainly hope you plan to pass out +20 hearts of wood to all the rangers, because this is going to be a massive mess. Even assuming we are willing to try to make it work, it will require completely re-spec'ing our AA's. We should not be expected to bear the cost of your changes.

Further, most players who run AA's don't believe that manyshot is a major contributor to lag. We don't see it in-game, and many believe this is just a lame excuse to make changes that much of the player base is very strongly against. Whatever math you're using, it's not translating into the game for the vast majority of players, based on both the forum posts & our own in-game experience.

My last comment echoes what a few other poster have mentioned. The test periods on Lamannia seem to keep getting shorter & shorter. There should be at least 2 testing periods, each a minimum of 2 weeks long, to give players adequate time to test the new enhancements. Otherwise, you're not allowing for adequate evaluation by the players, especially when we're dealing with such massive changes.

[Bennum]

Hi,

What particularly gets on my nerves about this change is that it seems like after 28 pages the developers still don't even recognise it as an issue.

The importance of that short period of a high rate of fire to burst builds and melee/ranged hybrids has been brought up again and again, all to no avail.

All we have is some hints dropped about lag; once again, without anyone actually confirming that manyshot is a reliable and significant cause of it. The fact that this alleged lag is any sort of reason to make this change is even more puzzling given recent developer admissions about how projectile creation works with doubleshot.

It's pretty disappointing that the ranger pass is actually going to be harmful to a couple of staple ranger builds, when with a little more effort we could have a solution which was useful to everyone. Instead, we are going to see those builds downgraded without even so much as an explanation. Good job.

Thanks.

Yup no consideration at all for Melee Rangers or Hybrids. I may as well trash my bows