Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Basura_Grande]

Doubleshot is currently intended to have a chance on each shot on a repeater at 1/3 the normal chance.

Then it's bugged as it's working much better than that.

As stuff's looking now repeater and thrower rangers will be much better than bows, and thats' really dumb.

[EllisDee37]

[*]Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!

How is this justified when a pure rogue mechanic using great crossbows gets +40% rate of fire from mechanic and +20% run speed (for 3 AP!) from acrobat?

EDIT: Great crossbow mechanics appear to be superior to longbow users in every way: faster run speed, much higher rate of fire, plus they get to use situational ammo thanks to fletching. Bow users only ever get to use their crappy returners.

[Mindos]

One reason is to not take that away from current players who have often invested years into those characters. It's something we sometimes feel necessary to do but we avoid that when we can.

Another is that it's a moderately complex build that rewards a good player who's paying attention. While monks get some bonuses other ranged characters don't, it goes the other way as well, which means we don't see a reason for it to not be top tier. Again, not everything has to be - while I would love to see an amazing Elven Occult Slayer Arcane Archer make it work, it's not a priority for us to change things to make that top tier. But we're not going to intentionally try to push down existing fun characters any more than absolutely necessary (if necessary at all).

If a bone breaks, and heals incorrectly, you MUST break it in order to set it properly. Is this game broke? To some degree, yes. Why else would we be making changes? And if changes are warrented, then perhaps some breakage is needed as well. Snapping off the abominations that have festered over the years so that the game can heal and grow properly is what you should be doing. Making excuses about the proliferation of such builds when they should never have existed for this long to begin with? Wag of the finger!

And why are we talking about Monk at all? This is the RANGER pass for Bhaal's sake! With such fretting around and constant concern for the other classes, playing this what if game is exausting. Why don't we focus on ranger now and worry about the other classes when we get to them? Do you view Ranger as a full and proper class? Or is it just a splash class to you? Make decisions based on it being a strong and proper class of its own, not based on what some other class might take from it?

Why isn't the question instead how much of another class will a ranger be tempted to splash instead of how much ranger will the others take?

[Holymunchkin]

Then it's bugged as it's working much better than that.

As stuff's looking now repeater and thrower rangers will be much better than bows, and thats' really dumb.

ya repeaters get 100% of doubleshot on each bolt.

you should consider nerfing this. (I play a pure ranger repeater right now in DWS and it is arguably slightly better than mechanic.)

Devs PLEASE keep in mind how imbues currently affect shuri throwers. Buffs to imbues are more-so beneficial for a shuri than they are for a pure ranger AA.

The nerf to manyshot and its burst ability is IMO very wierd.

Why not just leave the ability as is---and find another way to buff bows?

Its an old feat and nerfing it seems very strange and unnecessary. I don't think you guys need to fix what isn't broke. lol

[Requiro]

(...)

• Make them function different (e.g. they could work 100% of the time but only can use one at a time, one could work with thrown and one with bows, Have a cooldown on each that negates the other, etc). - Workable, but would need to balance and would annoy a lot of people (I prefer this approach, but I have no illusions that many will like this).

/signed

[Erik_Loki]

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

I'm sorry but you're doing the same error that the devs do... this is the wrong question cause it's not the time to focus and concentrate the energy to create a new tree... we need a strong adjustment to the AA. Leave them absolutely identical, who cares? if you're putting DC on the AA's arrow it's obvious you know(not you directly it's an example) less than John Snow about this game. The player's opinions aren't really considered and the development is going in the wrong direction, sadly, and the real ones (those who play daily) have my same fear.

[Eldried]

If a bone breaks, and heals incorrectly, you MUST break it in order to set it properly. Is this game broke? To some degree, yes. Why else would we be making changes? And if changes are warrented, then perhaps some breakage is needed as well. Snapping off the abominations that have festered over the years so that the game can heal and grow properly is what you should be doing. Making excuses about the proliferation of such builds when they should never have existed for this long to begin with? Wag of the finger!

And why are we talking about Monk at all? This is the RANGER pass for Bhaal's sake! With such fretting around and constant concern for the other classes, playing this what if game is exausting. Why don't we focus on ranger now and worry about the other classes when we get to them? Do you view Ranger as a full and proper class? Or is it just a splash class to you? Make decisions based on it being a strong and proper class of its own, not based on what some other class might take from it?

Why isn't the question instead how much of another class will a ranger be tempted to splash instead of how much ranger will the others take?

We are talking about other classes(Monk in this case) because a MONK ability Ten Throusand stars is being nerved with the ranger pass. Which sucks.

[MrWindupBird]

Caught up, 4 bigger-picture thoughts so far. First two regarding manyshot changes:

Point 1:

The fun part of playing an archer (to me) is maximizing the damage I get from Manyshot + Slayer Arrows + Adrenaline.

Sure, my sustained damage is well below most other builds - but hitting a string of enemies with a combo is FUN. Further, it makes for a different gameplay than most other builds which I consider a very good thing (tm). These changes seem to aim towards lowering the burst damage very considerably which upping the sustained damage some - but that removes the fun and different part from the play style while simply making it more like other builds.

Whats the point in claiming to want to further build diversity if the actual effect is to remove the actually different play style?

This is a really good point. Fury/slaying/manyshot interaction is kind of unique in DDO: it's a fun combo mechanic, something more like an arcade game and requiring a different sort of timer/spacing management than anything else. Losing the manyshot spike means you lose that whole playstyle. I wouldn't be totally heartbroken (I rarely play my AA now), but I think further homogenization/loss of playstyle diversity is something to be avoided. AA playstyle is separate and strange (at least in Fury), keep it that way. Also there won't be any use for the Fury ED with new changes- it will go the way of Magister.


Point 2:

That only needs to be looked at if the character is using a bow after manyshot. Are you OK nerfing Rangers who only use bows when manyshot is on cooldown? My understanding was that Stalker was designed around this play style?

Distributing the damage over the two minute period isn't a bad idea and is good for a 100% bow ranger but there are other kinds of Rangers that use Manyshot.

Finally using the doubleshot penalty to justify a manyshot nerf feels kind of (I'll get over it) disingenuous to a player who's been around long enough to remember when the penalty didn't exist.

Another great point. The feat investment, even on a 6+ranger build, to get a good burst ranged option is significant (PBS/Icrit/Combat Archery). Again, loss of manyshot functionality will erode a sort of niche playstyle, the melee-with-manyshot hybrid. I'd much prefer to see that stay, for reasons similar to the above: it's fun, it's thematic, it requires a different sort of situational and tactical awareness, and it certainly isn't overpowered.


Point 3:
I'm sensing a lot of pre-emptive pushback by the devs on giving rangers run-speed. This is misguided, for a few reasons. One: literally every single class touched since the enhancement revamps began has enhanced run speed (bard, barb, pally+fighter via stance, rogue, warlock via SoulEater). What has led you to believe that the runspeed contributes to the current powercreep? Has there been a single complaint? I haven't heard any, other than the erosion of that which once made monks unique (that ship has sailed and spawned an entire armada). Runspeed is convenience and makes the combat much more fun, especially on a melee. Giving runspeed to everyone else but not to rangers (a light-armored, fleet archetype) feels wrong, and makes no sense from lore or flavor perspectives. I wager the hesitation is due to concerns over kiting. Guess what: you dont need runspeed to kite. It is almost 100% about pathing, not runspeed: there are very few linear footraces in DDO, and precious few things that run at player speed +/-10%. They're either much slower or much faster. Further, if concerned about kiting (and you should be, with reaper coming), the way to manage this is via hamstring, chains, environmental effects that force close distance, and good encounter design. If your plan to stop kiting is to maintain base runspeed, here's a newsflash: it wont work.
So, please for the love of God just change Longstrider to provide a +15% self movement speed, stacking. It is a feel thing, but it is an important feel thing: feeling slow sucks, particularly on a melee where you have to close gaps.



Point 4:
I dont have the time or diversity of toons to do this, but it's pretty critical that we have a good idea of the differences in base rate of fire (before any doubleshot/manyshot/10k/fusillade etc) of ranged options. Repeating xbow, great xbow with T5 mechanic, bow, and thrown weapons. Right now bow has a significantly lower rate of fire than other options, but I dont know how much. If anyone else can test BAB 28 cases, that would be really helpful.

[Delacroix21]

Can we seriously stop the monkercher whining?

Here is some basic math: with new trees (and current gear/past lives) pure rangers can get 72% double shot, 92% with killer stacks (making manyshot only a ranged power boost as the double shot benefit is unnoticeable at 8%).


10k stars monkerchers can get at best 47% double shot, 67% with killer.


So sure, keep playing monkercher or asking for nerfs.

[Severlin]

ya repeaters get 100% of doubleshot on each bolt.

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Edit: It was indeed not working. Should be fixed in the next build.

Sev~

[Aletys]

I personally have never noticed anything lag-like when using manyshot. The damage numbers trail behind, but that happens all the time with many builds. I've never heard anyone mention manyshot as a possible source of lag before now. It seems to me that the number of calculations during manyshot, even when using ips to hit many mobs is dwarfed by what happened any time my shiradi caster fired chain missiles into a group. That actually did cause my client to momentarily freeze every time i did it.

This.
/Signed

[jakeelala]

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Sev~

Please do test it

[RD2play]

nice to see ranger change into a sustained damage build, I am sad tho that the burst option will be no more

[CrackedIce]

There a lot of really solid major points being raised in this thread and I wish I had time to chime in on some of these.

Anyway, I just want to bring out a small seemingly insignificant point in light of all the groundbreaking discussion in this thread.

Please change requirement for elven AA to be flat 14 ap points spent in tree. 4 wasted points to unlock the elven tree is a hold-over from pre enhancement tree days. The opportunity cost with going into elven AA is intrinsic in having to already spend 14 ap points that could have been used for points in the more powerful class trees. Especially considering you would be giving up level 18 core in a class tree (other than elven AA obviously) by spending filler ap in racial tree. These 14 points are not completely worthless, just much weaker than say spending to get into 18 core or even giving up some of the low hanging fruit in other trees. (Yes there is still about 21 ap left to spend elsewhere, but we are talking about an additional crucial 14 ap! - with all the recent revamps being forced to spend 4 ap on just unlocking this tree as I see it should not be a requirement)

Another quality of life change I would go for is tie conjure arrows to core one so that as soon as you put 1 ap into AA you can conjure +1 arcane arrows. This gives tempest deepwood rangers an easier time for having unlimited arrows. I have a tempest ranger and cannot find 3 ap free to spend for conjure arrows. For only 1 ap I may find that worthy of taking from elsewhere...

[Spekdah_NZ]

Elven 12 Ranger 6 Monk:
31 points to get Crit in AA,
21 points to get crit in DWS,
14 points to get the Elven AA tree (so you don't need 18 Ranger for the AA Core Crit)

I was comparing by classic monkcher (12M/6R/2P) with the above for losses/gains

dropping from 12 to 6 monk the main losses are; (need 12 ranger for crit range in DWS)
* Abundant Step
* Improved Evasion
* and some extra run speed

6 monk still gets you;
* 3 extra martial feats at 1, 2, 6 (lets you grab precision, 10k stars and master of forms)
* Still twist dance of flowers for +1.5W
* mountain stance for +2/3 con, +12/15%AC, +12/15 PRR and +1 crit multi on a 19,20 depending on master/grandmaster of forms

Doesn't the mountain stance crit stack? So dropping 6 monkey levels for me +1 extra threat and 1 extra crit? I need coffee.

[ecgric]

Action Boosts reduced:
Yay. Any AP reduction is always nice.

DC Based Arrow Stances:
I agree with the general opinion that the DC should be based on DEX, not WIS. As many have stated, this would give more power to the Monkcher build than a "more traditional" Ranger Archer. The Devs apparently agree that the archer is intended as a DEX build, otherwise why put +4 DEX as the capstone reward. I can see the idea of WIS due to that being the stat for Ranger casting, but let's face it, Archers focus on DEX.
As for other changes to Paralyzing/Terror/Smiting/Banishing, I'll reserve judgement until I get more details.

Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock):
This is definitely something that needs to be improved. The fact that these currently don't scale is a problem. I think the proposed changes will work well, but I don't feel like doing to math to determine if it's too much or not enough.

Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
Since many class enhancement trees already have options of a crit multiplier, this makes sense.

Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
As I said above, this just shows that the Devs feel the AA is DEX based, not WIS.


As to other items discussed in this thread:
I think changes need to happen to allow easier access to changing the arrows being used. It's too much trouble to open a quiver, pull out the arrows you want, put them into the active use slot.

Manyshot could use some changes to help balance the DPS spike that AA does. 20 seconds doing 4x damage, then wait for 100 seconds. Usually the only time my AA can keep up with the DPS of others is during that 20 seconds. Personally, I would be willing to reduce the number of shots if I could use Manyshot more often. Perhaps a Tier 5 3-step AA enhancement to reduce the cooldown to 100/80/60?

[CrackedIce]

Caught up, 4 bigger-picture thoughts so far. First two regarding manyshot changes:

Point 1:


This is a really good point. Fury/slaying/manyshot interaction is kind of unique in DDO: it's a fun combo mechanic, something more like an arcade game and requiring a different sort of timer/spacing management than anything else. Losing the manyshot spike means you lose that whole playstyle. I wouldn't be totally heartbroken (I rarely play my AA now), but I think further homogenization/loss of playstyle diversity is something to be avoided. AA playstyle is separate and strange (at least in Fury), keep it that way. Also there won't be any use for the Fury ED with new changes- it will go the way of Magister.


Point 2:


Another great point. The feat investment, even on a 6+ranger build, to get a good burst ranged option is significant (PBS/Icrit/Combat Archery). Again, loss of manyshot functionality will erode a sort of niche playstyle, the melee-with-manyshot hybrid. I'd much prefer to see that stay, for reasons similar to the above: it's fun, it's thematic, it requires a different sort of situational and tactical awareness, and it certainly isn't overpowered.


Point 3:
I'm sensing a lot of pre-emptive pushback by the devs on giving rangers run-speed. This is misguided, for a few reasons. One: literally every single class touched since the enhancement revamps began has enhanced run speed (bard, barb, pally+fighter via stance, rogue, warlock via SoulEater). What has led you to believe that the runspeed contributes to the current powercreep? Has there been a single complaint? I haven't heard any, other than the erosion of that which once made monks unique (that ship has sailed and spawned an entire armada). Runspeed is convenience and makes the combat much more fun, especially on a melee. Giving runspeed to everyone else but not to rangers (a light-armored, fleet archetype) feels wrong, and makes no sense from lore or flavor perspectives. I wager the hesitation is due to concerns over kiting. Guess what: you dont need runspeed to kite. It is almost 100% about pathing, not runspeed: there are very few linear footraces in DDO, and precious few things that run at player speed +/-10%. They're either much slower or much faster. Further, if concerned about kiting (and you should be, with reaper coming), the way to manage this is via hamstring, chains, environmental effects that force close distance, and good encounter design. If your plan to stop kiting is to maintain base runspeed, here's a newsflash: it wont work.
So, please for the love of God just change Longstrider to provide a +15% self movement speed, stacking. It is a feel thing, but it is an important feel thing: feeling slow sucks, particularly on a melee where you have to close gaps.



Point 4:
I dont have the time or diversity of toons to do this, but it's pretty critical that we have a good idea of the differences in base rate of fire (before any doubleshot/manyshot/10k/fusillade etc) of ranged options. Repeating xbow, great xbow with T5 mechanic, bow, and thrown weapons. Right now bow has a significantly lower rate of fire than other options, but I dont know how much. If anyone else can test BAB 28 cases, that would be really helpful.

Excellent posts all around. Nothing to add here.

[Grace_ana]

This is a lot to process and comment on, but there are some pretty serious issues to be addressed. Hopefully I won't have missed anything. Though, sine my comments and questions to the devs seem to almost never be answered...

I very much agree with Varg that the really difficult part is balancing non-monk archers with ranger archers in a way that doesn't completely ruin everyone's build but makes both viable. I just don't think that what has been proposed addresses that. There are a couple major factors in those two archer versions that need to be addressed: Manyshot/10K Stars (and thank you, Sev, for beginning that conversation), and rate of fire.

Problem: Manyshot/10K Stars

The problem is that if one of those groups has access to both, they inherently have more power available than the other group. While I'm aware that there are other things you can factor in, they are both big bursts of damage either way. The proposed changes don't fix this; they are a nerf to both types of archers and throwers on top of it.

The assumptions that archers are starting from maybe 30% doubleshot is a big part of that problem. As many have pointed out, most archers have a lot more than that. On my ranger I can easily get: 25% from AA, 20% from DWS, 10% from doubleshot feat, and 20% from Pinion (and Pinion isn't so uncommon since the raider's reward boxes). That's 75% without even trying. It also doesn't count the huge doubleshot bonuses in Divine Crusader (because not everyone runs in Fury). By making this particular change to Manyshot and 10K Stars, you are basically negating the usefulness of all other sources of doubleshot.

Proposed solution:

As you have already said, it would be awfully tough to boost everything at the same time. We will likely end up with archers that are more DC focused and ones that are more sustained damage focused. It would be nice if we could also retain ones that are burst focused as well. So what about changing the Manyshot feat to work similarly to the 10K Stars feat?

Currently, 10K Stars shoots more projectiles depending on how high your wisdom is. Can we simply change Manyshot to do the same but dependent on the dex stat? While some people can certainly get each stat high, you can really only full-****** invest in one of them. As you take away from one to put into the other, it establishes a balance between them. And, if you don't have the 10K Stars option because you don't have monk levels, you can dump lots into dex if you so choose and make up for that loss.

And drop the doubleshot penalties entirely. They don't fit with the current enhancement/feat/destiny landscape.

Problem: Rate of Fire

Archers lag way, way, waaaay behind everyone else on this. Attack speed for melee is much faster. Attack speed for throwers is faster (thanks to either monk levels or alacrity from mechanic). I also find it hard to believe your assumption of an attack rate of two arrows per second. I am not seeing that. It's very frustrating to plink away slowly at things when anyone else - even other ranged builds like crossbow users or throwers - can zoom out their attacks faster. I don't understand the resistance to an alacrity increase for archers, and though it has been brought up by lots of people in many of these official threads, it still has not been discussed by a dev.

Of course, an archer with monk levels can attack much faster. So the balancing act for that is the tricky part as well.

Proposed solution:

Add alacrity into the tree, but make it work only if the toon is wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. You have other examples of this type of exclusion in the other trees as well, so it can certainly be done. I'd prefer that over not adding it to the racial tree, because that would hurt non-monk-non-ranger builds, which doesn't make sense.

Problem: Arrows causing lag

Sev cited the "expense" of multiple arrows. We have all seen the lag caused by archer mobs for sure. The problem is that the archer lag still exists for every other archer, player or mob, even with a manyshot/10K nerf. So by nerfing (and it is a nerf, the math carries that out), all you are doing is putting archers behind without actually solving the lag issue.

Proposed solution:

I don't have one, because you guys haven't really addressed or discussed it in enough detail to do so. We don't know why the archers cause so much lag. But realistically, if you wanted to fairly address it in game, you would have to do one of the following:

1. Fix the lag, or
2. Do a pass that removes the doubleshot from the entire game.

One of those is something you could do but would make everyone incredibly angry (even more than the fabled TWF nerf of yore), and one of those is, admittedly, not exactly easy. But the fact remains that you can't keep classes relatively balanced by removing a huge amount of dps from just one or two classes and leaving that dps in for everyone else. Manyshot/10K Stars makes up for a comparative lack of DPS on bows and throwing weapons. Nerfing it just makes them nonviable.

Problem: Proposed capstone doesn't fit with tree options

If the options are to offer either a strong DPS archer (dex) or a DC-based archer (wis), then wis should appear in the capstone as well.

Proposed solution:

Instead of +4 dex, add +2 dex and +2 wis.

Other comments and questions:

1. Slaying arrows are tier 5. They are the heroic equivalent of an epic moment. Don't pull back their power. If you make tier 5 abilities meh, there's no point in taking them at all, as you give up other tier 5 abilities in other trees for them. Anything you wait for, build for, and give up other options for should be powerful.

2. Still waiting to find out if the imbue stances will be affected by metamagics. I would like it if the elemental and force stances were affected by maximize and empower, and the DC stances were affected by heighten. I think it makes sense from a thematic standpoint, it is consistent with the rest of the spells and abilities in the game, and it also forces some more choices as well as giving options in the way of feat selection. It also gives a bit of a boost to ranger AA since they have a bit more feat space than others, which I think is perfectly fair given the other options other classes might get (holy sword, better defenses, etc.).

3. Please fix arrow stacking or quiver hotkeying so that archers can actually effectively use their various arrows.

[CrackedIce]

This is a lot to process and comment on, but there are some pretty serious issues to be addressed. Hopefully I won't have missed anything. Though, sine my comments and questions to the devs seem to almost never be answered...

I very much agree with Varg that the really difficult part is balancing non-monk archers with ranger archers in a way that doesn't completely ruin everyone's build but makes both viable. I just don't think that what has been proposed addresses that. There are a couple major factors in those two archer versions that need to be addressed: Manyshot/10K Stars (and thank you, Sev, for beginning that conversation), and rate of fire.

Problem: Manyshot/10K Stars

The problem is that if one of those groups has access to both, they inherently have more power available than the other group. While I'm aware that there are other things you can factor in, they are both big bursts of damage either way. The proposed changes don't fix this; they are a nerf to both types of archers and throwers on top of it.

The assumptions that archers are starting from maybe 30% doubleshot is a big part of that problem. As many have pointed out, most archers have a lot more than that. On my ranger I can easily get: 25% from AA, 20% from DWS, 10% from doubleshot feat, and 20% from Pinion (and Pinion isn't so uncommon since the raider's reward boxes). That's 75% without even trying. It also doesn't count the huge doubleshot bonuses in Divine Crusader (because not everyone runs in Fury). By making this particular change to Manyshot and 10K Stars, you are basically negating the usefulness of all other sources of doubleshot.

Proposed solution:

As you have already said, it would be awfully tough to boost everything at the same time. We will likely end up with archers that are more DC focused and ones that are more sustained damage focused. It would be nice if we could also retain ones that are burst focused as well. So what about changing the Manyshot feat to work similarly to the 10K Stars feat?

Currently, 10K Stars shoots more projectiles depending on how high your wisdom is. Can we simply change Manyshot to do the same but dependent on the dex stat? While some people can certainly get each stat high, you can really only full-****** invest in one of them. As you take away from one to put into the other, it establishes a balance between them. And, if you don't have the 10K Stars option because you don't have monk levels, you can dump lots into dex if you so choose and make up for that loss.

And drop the doubleshot penalties entirely. They don't fit with the current enhancement/feat/destiny landscape.

Problem: Rate of Fire

Archers lag way, way, waaaay behind everyone else on this. Attack speed for melee is much faster. Attack speed for throwers is faster (thanks to either monk levels or alacrity from mechanic). I also find it hard to believe your assumption of an attack rate of two arrows per second. I am not seeing that. It's very frustrating to plink away slowly at things when anyone else - even other ranged builds like crossbow users or throwers - can zoom out their attacks faster. I don't understand the resistance to an alacrity increase for archers, and though it has been brought up by lots of people in many of these official threads, it still has not been discussed by a dev.

Of course, an archer with monk levels can attack much faster. So the balancing act for that is the tricky part as well.

Proposed solution:

Add alacrity into the tree, but make it work only if the toon is wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. You have other examples of this type of exclusion in the other trees as well, so it can certainly be done. I'd prefer that over not adding it to the racial tree, because that would hurt non-monk-non-ranger builds, which doesn't make sense.

Problem: Arrows causing lag

Sev cited the "expense" of multiple arrows. We have all seen the lag caused by archer mobs for sure. The problem is that the archer lag still exists for every other archer, player or mob, even with a manyshot/10K nerf. So by nerfing (and it is a nerf, the math carries that out), all you are doing is putting archers behind without actually solving the lag issue.

Proposed solution:

I don't have one, because you guys haven't really addressed or discussed it in enough detail to do so. We don't know why the archers cause so much lag. But realistically, if you wanted to fairly address it in game, you would have to do one of the following:

1. Fix the lag, or
2. Do a pass that removes the doubleshot from the entire game.

One of those is something you could do but would make everyone incredibly angry (even more than the fabled TWF nerf of yore), and one of those is, admittedly, not exactly easy. But the fact remains that you can't keep classes relatively balanced by removing a huge amount of dps from just one or two classes and leaving that dps in for everyone else. Manyshot/10K Stars makes up for a comparative lack of DPS on bows and throwing weapons. Nerfing it just makes them nonviable.

Problem: Proposed capstone doesn't fit with tree options

If the options are to offer either a strong DPS archer (dex) or a DC-based archer (wis), then wis should appear in the capstone as well.

Proposed solution:

Instead of +4 dex, add +2 dex and +2 wis.

Other comments and questions:

1. Slaying arrows are tier 5. They are the heroic equivalent of an epic moment. Don't pull back their power. If you make tier 5 abilities meh, there's no point in taking them at all, as you give up other tier 5 abilities in other trees for them. Anything you wait for, build for, and give up other options for should be powerful.

2. Still waiting to find out if the imbue stances will be affected by metamagics. I would like it if the elemental and force stances were affected by maximize and empower, and the DC stances were affected by heighten. I think it makes sense from a thematic standpoint, it is consistent with the rest of the spells and abilities in the game, and it also forces some more choices as well as giving options in the way of feat selection. It also gives a bit of a boost to ranger AA since they have a bit more feat space than others, which I think is perfectly fair given the other options other classes might get (holy sword, better defenses, etc.).

3. Please fix arrow stacking or quiver hotkeying so that archers can actually effectively use their various arrows.

Arg! And these points are solid as well. I too have would like you to consider whether manyshot should be the dex equivalent for 10k. This is something I was playing around myself, but am not a maths guy to fit the validity of the idea along with the other enhancement changes and resulting power of it. Either way, I personally would not want to see the removal of the FUN button that is manyshot. And would still like to see it as a high investment dps utility item. Under the current proposal, I just do not see that. As a melee and ranged toon, especially for those who sunk feats into it, would like to see its utility remain somewhat intact.

Thanks.

[caberonia]

Snip

Amazing. Hopefully this is the beginning of an overall pass of DC abilities in general. I would like to think that your willingness to do this points toward an overall plan of fixing various DC scaling issues.

However I want to point out that ARCANE archers DCs should be INT based not wisdom. The premise for Arcane archer is arcane magic not wisdom based divine stuff. There should be some inherent synergy with wizard splashes for the proper flavor of the tree since the actual premise is arcane magic being imbued on arrows not divine magic.

The current plan creates more synergy with divine splashes than arcane. (wis instead of int based DC)

Wizard is generally a very weak splash for almost anybuild, arcane archers should be one of the few exceptions to that rule...