Shining Through has to go!

[dunklezhan]

This thread isn't about my Fighter needing help!

It's about showing that Warlock is broken OP!

I'm aware of that. I was merely commenting on a particular post which I thought had general merit. I specifically did not take any time to address the thread title, and as such kept the post as short as possible. No attempt to derail your thread was intended.

Indeed, I deliberately didn't try to contribute because I have nothing solid to contribute to your point - I don't own Warlock so have no direct experience. I simply thought the description of how to handle things with a pure melee that Sil posted was well done.

[PsychoBlonde]

Would you PLEASE stop demanding how others play their characters? It gets really, really old.

If you don't like it, YOU can stop using it.

Indeed. And the claim that Warlocks have "the best DPS" is flat-out laughable. It takes me FAR longer to kill bosses on my Warlock than on any of my other characters. They have good solid AOE damage but very limited single-target damage with NO burst ramp up. I helped my housemate level up a warlock from 1-28. I played my rogue/monk/paladin. In easy quests, we had about even numbers of kills (although he'd get more if I was being lazy and doing a lot of stuff like disarming traps or doing puzzles rather than chasing mobs down to pad my kill count). When we started getting to the harder content I'd out-kill him regularly. And in many boss fights he finds it more efficient to scroll-heal me while I kill it.

I actually took almost all of my points out of ES on my warlock to go for a more enchantment-focused build. It's harder to play (I have to be more careful), but I'm not bored to death, either.

[Hobgoblin]

i dont think its that bad.


in heroics, shining is just for traps/being lazy

for me anyway


it does make kinda an ez button but most classed have that for heroics

caster - run till you get red alert. turn nuke finish quest (not in that order necessarily)


meelee run till you get red alert. turn cleave finish quest (not in that order necessarily)

bard run run till you get red alert. turn fascinate finish quest (not in that order necessarily)

[lifestaker]

Fran I fail to understand far to many things to sit here and use your quotes, but will try to hit on a few.

Your level 15 warlock has 280 hp and shining through grants him 335 hp? So your con mod at level 15 is a 27ish? If that is the case then you would have far more hp then that. You made up numbers and addressed them incorrectly to make an argument. Better to do that when people will not correct you, more later in post.

You say how your Lvl 19 Stalwart Vanguard Fighter died in there and your level 15 lived. Sorry but at that level with investment in low gear but good use of enhancements you should not be getting hit by much of anything. You are playing a build that has a AC focused offence by name alone. Sorry if you could not hang in there, but it may have been your character that you used being under geared or played with in a way that failure was highly probable. Tactics come into play with every play style, you can't play an ac build like a dps build in every quest.

You point out that you love your warlock, why for you lie about numbers to make them seem overpowered? By your screen shot, you have 295 hp. Temp Hp for you would go 84 from shining though (con mod of 7 * 12), 25 from brilliance (if you are in aura), 35 from fringed health ( 100% your charisma for 3 points), 147 from snatch (half your max hp for 3 minutes but lowers max hp by 3%), and then you would be going into false life and gh or other spells like that for getting more temp HP. 84+25+35+147 = 291 temp hp without gh or other spells. Still under your 335 hp that you say that you have gotten just from shinning through. The numbers hold true to your temp HP from you SS though, making me think that your max HP is actually over 295, but shows as 295 due to you applying snatch at least one time.

Now you comment that your level 19 had a healer with them. Was it a level 19 healer as well? Did you keep the healer in full active or offensive, setting it up for failure?

Your reference that your fighter was crowd surfing and lacked the dps. If you knew you were going to be fighting a mob in the area, why were you jumping around rather then just cleaving to start with? I just think you may have learned from the fail on your fighter and played your warlock smarter. That is a good thing that you learned an area in the quest, but it alters your two examples.

You also comment that your warlock used Evards as a CC against the mob. Thus proving my point prior, and giving your fighter an unfair baseline due to his lack of CC on top of that.

You point out 2 of your other toons that could do the quest as easily if not easier, but say they would need a hireling. Both the barb and pally are good self healers, and should not need a hireling. I would hate to tell you how to play your characters but when you are going to compare them to another class you might want to see if they can do it, as is or by resting enhancements.

I also assume that the fighter that you rarely play is a less liked character then your warlock, and is probably behind in gear, past lives, and investment when compared to the warlock?

Sorry Fran but your information being false and biased makes your argument invalid and can reflect on you. Almost seems like you are trying to create an argument for whatever reason.

What was the point of all this anyways?



-------TL;DR---------------
Pointed out several things that were said that were incorrect in the OPs posts.
Tried to not come across as rude, but just view the topic as someone saying falsehoods to make things look bad.

[FranOhmsford]

Your level 15 warlock has 280 hp and shining through grants him 335 hp? So your con mod at level 15 is a 27ish? If that is the case then you would have far more hp then that. You made up numbers and addressed them incorrectly to make an argument. Better to do that when people will not correct you, more later in post.

280 or thereabouts I said - In fact the screenshot later shows 295! {Admittedly the character had just taken 15 so I was thinking of my Lvl 14 HPs BUT I did say Or thereabouts.

615 again was an estimate - Definitely over 600 at 14 though.

My Con is 25 as you can see on the screenshot.

You say how your Lvl 19 Stalwart Vanguard Fighter died in there and your level 15 lived. Sorry but at that level with investment in low gear but good use of enhancements you should not be getting hit by much of anything. You are playing a build that has a AC focused offence by name alone. Sorry if you could not hang in there, but it may have been your character that you used being under geared or played with in a way that failure was highly probable. Tactics come into play with every play style, you can't play an ac build like a dps build in every quest.

I'm really getting fed up of people claiming that AC is easy to build for - It ISN'T!

Getting high AC numbers as well as decent DPS is a massive undertaking and is in no way comparable to the ease with which I made that Warlock!

Now you comment that your level 19 had a healer with them. Was it a level 19 healer as well? Did you keep the healer in full active or offensive, setting it up for failure?

It was Althea - A decent Lvl 16 FvS with Mass Deathward - A Healer Specced Hire that does NOTHING other than HEAL!

Would Heystack or Merenon have done better? In that quest No!

Your reference that your fighter was crowd surfing and lacked the dps. If you knew you were going to be fighting a mob in the area, why were you jumping around rather then just cleaving to start with? I just think you may have learned from the fail on your fighter and played your warlock smarter. That is a good thing that you learned an area in the quest, but it alters your two examples.

I got surrounded by teleporting mobs!

I wasn't jumping around - I was trying to get out of the crush when I realised my Cleaves weren't damaging the mobs fast enough while my HPs were going down {And the only healing I had left with my Hireling dead was Pots - Which in that scenario are utterly useless!}.


As for playing my Warlock smarter - No! I Played my fighter who is meant for melee as a melee and I played my Warlock who is a ranged toon as ranged!

You also comment that your warlock used Evards as a CC against the mob. Thus proving my point prior, and giving your fighter an unfair baseline due to his lack of CC on top of that.

Fighter does have a lack of CC yes BUT this should be compensated for by the Devs and it isn't!

Warlock meanwhile has High CC, High DPS, High Self Defenses - Warlock has NO Penalties!

You point out 2 of your other toons that could do the quest as easily if not easier, but say they would need a hireling. Both the barb and pally are good self healers, and should not need a hireling. I would hate to tell you how to play your characters but when you are going to compare them to another class you might want to see if they can do it, as is or by resting enhancements.

I did not say "if not easier" or "as easily" - Those are your statements!

Both Barb and Paladin would need Hirelings to solo that quest if I was playing them - Warlock DOESN'T!


And I'll say this again - My point here is that I'm NOT one of the best players out there!
My point is that Warlock is so much stronger than other classes that even someone like me can run Quests Under-Level Solo {Without a Hireling} with it! What Ubers can do with it I simply can't imagine!

I also assume that the fighter that you rarely play is a less liked character then your warlock, and is probably behind in gear, past lives, and investment when compared to the warlock?

Then you'd assume wrong!

That Warlock started life 4 Years ago on another server {The Stalwart is easily half her age} as a Pale Master and was an utter nightmare to level up!

When Warlock came out I finally got her to 20 {she was actually the same level - 15 - as said Stalwart before that} and insta-TRd her - Playing her as a Warlock has been a breeze!
It's so easy there's just no comparison!

So she has exactly ONE past Life - Wizard.

As for said Stalwart...He's made it to 20 and I intend to keep him in Epics for a while.

[FranOhmsford]

My Warlock's HPs at Lvl 15 are:

295
595 with Shining Through
618 with Feigned Health {Which is always on because of Displacement/Tensers}

I forgot about Feigned Health - I did NOT lie about my HPs!

[FranOhmsford]

I really don't believe I have to do this but here's the Fighter for comparison purposes.

Yes I know he could be better - But it's not like I haven't put work into him - He's not a weak toon!




The only gear that has changed from 19-20 are:

Shield - He was using an Adherence from Necro Shield Turn Ins {with 8 PRR slotted} and now has a Demonic Slab {with 10 PRR slotted}
Helm - He was using a Nightforge Darkhelm with Fear Immunity slotted and is now wearing an Epic Chimera's Crown with Fear Immunity and Wis 6 Slotted.


His other gear is:
Twinblade - Which he was NOT using in Subversion as it doesn't break DR - Instead he was wielding a Random Gen +4 Holy Silver Warhammer of Maiming.
Firebreak Full Plate. {Normal version}
Int 2, Nat Armour 6 Goggles
Nightforge Gorget with Deathblock slotted
Greater Bold Trinket
Deadly IV, Acc II Cloak with Vitality slotted
Etheral Bracers {Old version}
Belt of Seeker VI
Ring of False Life 30
Striding 30% Ring
Dex 6 boots with Cha 5 slotted
Con 6 Gloves with Str 5 slotted

Only thing missing is Speed.

He has GH Enhancement so always has that up
He carries a Deathward capable Hire so has that up
He has Blur Scrolls and 3 charges of Shield on the Mystic Belt!



And no he doesn't have any points spent in ED yet - ED is Leg Dread so you can knock 10 hps off him as well as those he's gained simply from going from 19-20!

[stoerm]

The first warlock I ran with was in a pug, he was a pure warlock in heroic GH so about level 15-16. He had something like 800-1000 HP (hey Svan! ) That was eye opening.

This is just one part of the story. Apart from self healing (redundant) and divine grace, on paper warlocks have about every cool ability found in the game, plus some only found in raid gear (HP/SP regen on hit). Yeah, it does look a bit OP. But it's going to be addressed, so I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist.

[FranOhmsford]

The first warlock I ran with was in a pug, he was a pure warlock in heroic GH so about level 15-16. He had something like 800-1000 HP (hey Svan! ) That was eye opening.

This is just one part of the story. Apart from self healing (redundant) and divine grace, on paper warlocks have about every cool ability found in the game, plus some only found in raid gear (HP/SP regen on hit). Yeah, it does look a bit OP. But it's going to be addressed, so I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist.

Thank you. This is what I'm getting at!

If even I can get 700+ Effective HPs at Lvl 16 {I had 740 at one point last night - Not sure how as with Shining Through and Feigned Health I'm at 647} on a 25 Con then it's blatantly obvious that others can get far higher!

Meanwhile my Lvl 20 Stalwart having just started Leg Dread is on 830 - So a Warlock with massive Ranged DPS, AoEs, CC has the HP potential of a STALWART FIGHTER!

I can't be the only one who thinks this is just ridiculous! {What would people have thought 2 years ago if you could easily get a Wizard or Sorc to 600+ HP at Lvl 16? - Heck I can barely get 400 at 20 on those!}.

And yes I know Stalwarts can get 1500+ at Lvl 20 - I'm going by what I can get on those two characters! {My Stalwart also has both False Life 30 and Vitality 20 on while my Warlock makes do with Gloves of False Life 25.}.

Warlock is ludicrously easy to build to this level compared to literally any other class!

[silinteresting]

Thank you. This is what I'm getting at!

If even I can get 700+ Effective HPs at Lvl 16 {I had 740 at one point last night - Not sure how as with Shining Through and Feigned Health I'm at 647} on a 25 Con then it's blatantly obvious that others can get far higher!

Meanwhile my Lvl 20 Stalwart having just started Leg Dread is on 830 - So a Warlock with massive Ranged DPS, AoEs, CC has the HP potential of a STALWART FIGHTER!

I can't be the only one who thinks this is just ridiculous! {What would people have thought 2 years ago if you could easily get a Wizard or Sorc to 600+ HP at Lvl 16? - Heck I can barely get 400 at 20 on those!}.

And yes I know Stalwarts can get 1500+ at Lvl 20 - I'm going by what I can get on those two characters! {My Stalwart also has both False Life 30 and Vitality 20 on while my Warlock makes do with Gloves of False Life 25.}.

Warlock is ludicrously easy to build to this level compared to literally any other class!

so let me get this right your having a little moan because you believe the amount of hp's you
can get on your warlock is higher that you think should be allowed? really?

you then moan that they are overpowered by saying that warlock has massive ranged dps, aoe's
and cc on top of having hp's comparible to your stalwart fighter well that one im afraid is wrong.

there ranged dps is even to a sorc at that level so in my eyes and many not op. there
aoes are good but not op as you think (side note you do realise that you cant be in two
stances at the same time so its either aoe burst damage or ranged blast damage and if you
build for blast then the hp's of the warlock wont include shining through). as for cc i believe
your refering to tenticles and that is no different to earthquake at the end of the day so again
not op.

you then go on again to say you think this is ridiculous by saying what would people of said
2 years ago. that bit made me chuckle. as for you not being able to get a sorc or wiz to over
400hps at level 20 i believe says alot about how you build your characters and the items you
equip not the state of the game or what is possible hp wise or power wise.

look as of right now the character im playing is a level 16 pure shadar kai rogue who has a
hp total of 578 with equipment on i believe. would you call this to much? the last time i did
a fighter using stalwart at 16 i believe i had over 700 hp again is that to much?

im gonna be brutaly honest here and if this upsets you then im sorry but it has to said,
learn to build properly and learn to equip up to date gear (refering to your stalwart there).
then you will see that all classes are easy to build for and its not just warlocks. then maybe
you can stop your warlock bashing expecially as it comes from your own inabilty to build
other classes.

anyway enough of my ramblings take care and have fun playing the game
your friend sil

[FranOhmsford]

there ranged dps is even to a sorc at that level

YOU WHAT?

Sorc DPS is an absolute Joke next to Warlock DPS!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc at Lvl 13 needs Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND MULTIPLE Superior Mnem Pots to get through Desert Caravan Solo on E-BB
She needed Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND at least one Major to get through Raid the Vulkoorim Solo on E-BB
My Warlock at the same level went through those two quests like a hot knife through butter!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc can't even run Purge the Fallen Shrine or Maraud the Mines because every d@rn mob is immune to fire! {And finding a group for Sands Walkups is strangely difficult - It's easier to get a group for Necro III!}.
My Warlock has no problem whatsoever Soloing those quests!


My Sorc has 250 or thereabouts HPs at Lvl 13!
My Warlock had close to 600!


The Sorc has a Sorc Past Life, The Warlock has a Wizard Past Life BOTH are 2nd Life! - The difference is insane!



And Sorcs are a heck of a lot better off than Wizards atm but they pale in comparison to Warlocks!

I no longer have a Wizard on Cannith so that Sorc and two 1st Life Lvl 15+17 Clerics are EASILY the weakest of all my characters!
The Warlock is by far the STRONGEST! {Way stronger than my Lvl 28 Monk who is just starting to run EEs}.

[Theolin]

i dont think its that bad.


in heroics, shining is just for traps/being lazy

for me anyway


it does make kinda an ez button but most classed have that for heroics

caster - run till you get red alert. turn nuke finish quest (not in that order necessarily)


meelee run till you get red alert. turn cleave finish quest (not in that order necessarily)

bard run run till you get red alert. turn fascinate finish quest (not in that order necessarily)

^^^ pretty much this ... it does not matter what you play in heroics its all the same ... run - red alert - stop - kill all - run some more
Ok it does matter a bit, you actually have to build at least a half decent toon
what really helps is knowing the quest like the back of your hand

[Qhualor]

YOU WHAT?

Sorc DPS is an absolute Joke next to Warlock DPS!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc at Lvl 13 needs Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND MULTIPLE Superior Mnem Pots to get through Desert Caravan Solo on E-BB
She needed Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND at least one Major to get through Raid the Vulkoorim Solo on E-BB
My Warlock at the same level went through those two quests like a hot knife through butter!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc can't even run Purge the Fallen Shrine or Maraud the Mines because every d@rn mob is immune to fire! {And finding a group for Sands Walkups is strangely difficult - It's easier to get a group for Necro III!}.
My Warlock has no problem whatsoever Soloing those quests!


My Sorc has 250 or thereabouts HPs at Lvl 13!
My Warlock had close to 600!


The Sorc has a Sorc Past Life, The Warlock has a Wizard Past Life BOTH are 2nd Life! - The difference is insane!



And Sorcs are a heck of a lot better off than Wizards atm but they pale in comparison to Warlocks!

I no longer have a Wizard on Cannith so that Sorc and two 1st Life Lvl 15+17 Clerics are EASILY the weakest of all my characters!
The Warlock is by far the STRONGEST! {Way stronger than my Lvl 28 Monk who is just starting to run EEs}.

Your issues have nothing to do with Shining Through or warlocks. It has more to do with how you play. I was going to give some helpful hints from your post, but I realized it won't matter and just deleted it. You will continue to gripe that your other characters struggle in Heroic Elite content while your warlock has no problems.

[Theolin]

YOU WHAT?

Sorc DPS is an absolute Joke next to Warlock DPS!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc at Lvl 13 needs Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND MULTIPLE Superior Mnem Pots to get through Desert Caravan Solo on E-BB
She needed Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND at least one Major to get through Raid the Vulkoorim Solo on E-BB
My Warlock at the same level went through those two quests like a hot knife through butter!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc can't even run Purge the Fallen Shrine or Maraud the Mines because every d@rn mob is immune to fire! {And finding a group for Sands Walkups is strangely difficult - It's easier to get a group for Necro III!}.
My Warlock has no problem whatsoever Soloing those quests!


My Sorc has 250 or thereabouts HPs at Lvl 13!
My Warlock had close to 600!


The Sorc has a Sorc Past Life, The Warlock has a Wizard Past Life BOTH are 2nd Life! - The difference is insane!



And Sorcs are a heck of a lot better off than Wizards atm but they pale in comparison to Warlocks!

I no longer have a Wizard on Cannith so that Sorc and two 1st Life Lvl 15+17 Clerics are EASILY the weakest of all my characters!
The Warlock is by far the STRONGEST! {Way stronger than my Lvl 28 Monk who is just starting to run EEs}.

I do not understand I can and have solo'd desert caravan on a wizard at level for BB with no pots, though I do have to shrine, no its not easy but it can be done, give me a melee and it is really simple.
Gee a fire savant being worthless in a quest with mobs immune to fire ... um... surprise .... don't even know what to say to this one.
And your cleric is the weakest ... really .... you mean you don't just drop blade barriers and keep running till the end of the quest and then drag the boss through one and/or use DP?

I do not think your problem is with warlocks.

[silinteresting]

YOU WHAT?

Sorc DPS is an absolute Joke next to Warlock DPS!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc at Lvl 13 needs Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND MULTIPLE Superior Mnem Pots to get through Desert Caravan Solo on E-BB
She needed Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND at least one Major to get through Raid the Vulkoorim Solo on E-BB
My Warlock at the same level went through those two quests like a hot knife through butter!

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc can't even run Purge the Fallen Shrine or Maraud the Mines because every d@rn mob is immune to fire! {And finding a group for Sands Walkups is strangely difficult - It's easier to get a group for Necro III!}.
My Warlock has no problem whatsoever Soloing those quests!


My Sorc has 250 or thereabouts HPs at Lvl 13!
My Warlock had close to 600!


The Sorc has a Sorc Past Life, The Warlock has a Wizard Past Life BOTH are 2nd Life! - The difference is insane!



And Sorcs are a heck of a lot better off than Wizards atm but they pale in comparison to Warlocks!

I no longer have a Wizard on Cannith so that Sorc and two 1st Life Lvl 15+17 Clerics are EASILY the weakest of all my characters!
The Warlock is by far the STRONGEST! {Way stronger than my Lvl 28 Monk who is just starting to run EEs}.

im sry fran but this comes down to your inabilty to build and gear your characters right and from this
you are making assumptions that are false.

sorcerer and warlock in heriocs elites are very simlar power wise they both can clear a room full of mobs
in seconds in 99% of all quests. the only difference is a warlock using shining through would have a few
more hit points but dps power wise there identical.

on a sorcerer at level 13 built right and geared properly i can rip a room apart with either a single fireball
or a chain lightning so no different there to the warlock and its bursts is there.

you have been playing this game as long as i have or maybe even longer. if your not building you characters
right by now and gearing them properly i can only put this down to two things. first youve got stuck in a
rut game wise and you only do things half heartedly this i find hard to believe because from what ive read from
you your pastionate about this game or secondly your lack of knowledge regarding what is possible for
each caracter you play gear and build wise is hindering you.

items that a sorcerer should be making use of at level 13 dps power wise.

cloak of flames level 15 when taken to tier 3 can be masterful crafted to become level 13 and have
combustion 90 and fire lore 15% on.

braces of the wind level 15 crafted to level 13 magnetism 90 lightning lore 15% also has blurry
and dodge on.

there are also a robe for ice and boots for acid so all elements can be covered. it is also not unreasonable
to believe a 2nd life would have spell crit from epics on a hot bar too so as you can see power is easy to
obtain .

i will repeat, it is only when two classes are geared and built properly can we compare them together
and im afraid fran that by you compairing your own characters you are coming from a false premise so
please stop asking for nerfs until you start building/gearing right and can make a proper judgement.

im sorry if the above comes across as harsh but i believe it needed to be said.

your friend sil

[Enoach]

YOU WHAT?

Sorc DPS is an absolute Joke next to Warlock DPS!

I think the difference here is a comparison is skewed with the Eldritch blast (unlimited) vs Spells (limited by Spell Points). However, use of SLAs can help a Sorcerer.

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc at Lvl 13 needs Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND MULTIPLE Superior Mnem Pots to get through Desert Caravan Solo on E-BB
She needed Full DVs from a Cleric Hire AND at least one Major to get through Raid the Vulkoorim Solo on E-BB
My Warlock at the same level went through those two quests like a hot knife through butter!

Desert Caravan is a Timed encounter with two shrines. Are you using the shrines? Or are you having trouble using them because of agro?

Some hints if the issue is using the shrines. Scrolls of the Highest Summon Monster you can get your hands on and cast. Next, scrolls or wands of invisibility and Displacement or Shadow Walk. I like to lay down Webs. You have to be willing to let them beat on the caravan while you recharge.

My 2nd Life Fire Savant Sorc can't even run Purge the Fallen Shrine or Maraud the Mines because every d@rn mob is immune to fire! {And finding a group for Sands Walkups is strangely difficult - It's easier to get a group for Necro III!}.
My Warlock has no problem whatsoever Soloing those quests!

I ran an entire life as a Fire Savant from 1 to 28. Yes when you run these quests and other high level quests where stuff is immune to Fire damage it can be really tough. However, you have enough AP to spend in an alternate Tree that can give you additional options. Also, having an alternate element helps at these times.

My Sorc has 250 or thereabouts HPs at Lvl 13!
My Warlock had close to 600!


The Sorc has a Sorc Past Life, The Warlock has a Wizard Past Life BOTH are 2nd Life! - The difference is insane!



And Sorcs are a heck of a lot better off than Wizards atm but they pale in comparison to Warlocks!

I no longer have a Wizard on Cannith so that Sorc and two 1st Life Lvl 15+17 Clerics are EASILY the weakest of all my characters!
The Warlock is by far the STRONGEST! {Way stronger than my Lvl 28 Monk who is just starting to run EEs}.

I remember being level 13 with 250 HP joining and getting kicked right away from a Chains of Flames Heroic Elite group. Getting a tell right away that I didn't have enough HP. They even changed their LFM to must have 300+ HP. I put up my own LFM, even filled it with others with less than 300 HP. The entire time I kept getting slam tells from the PL that decided I was not good enough, all of which I ignored. We did the whole quest no deaths got all the optional XP every slave and even freed the dwarf and the group had a blast. Now, when I was level 16 running in the Orchard this same person joined one of my LFMs, made a comment about how everyone had half the HP they had and how gimped we all were. They then proceeded to run the quest and even with other party members trying to help keep them up managed to die multiple times while no one else even came close.

What is my point? It is not a matter of how many HP you have, it is a matter of how you use those HP. Some people's play style requires lots of HP to survive. Some don't require as many.

It is too bad you feel you have a weak character. Sure DC casting is not the same as it was, broken by the inflated stats and the epic nerf to enchantment and debuff spells. But it can still work to some extent if that is how you want to play. I enjoy playing my wizard especially in groups using my Spell points to make the party better be that by enhancing their DPS or removing targets hard to reach but causing them to have to spend time healing. I also do spend time changing up my spells based on the content I'm running. A practice that I think all casters that can do this at a shrine/tavern should do to some extent. I think many times people are having trouble with SP management can be linked back to the spells they have picked - some because they think those are the only good spells and some because they don't understand situational spells.

I enjoy playing my cleric and this life have totally ditched the Radiant Servant Tree and having a blast using negative energy.

I think if you focused less on how strong/weak your character is and focused more on why you are having difficulties you might learn how to adapt your play style to your build and enjoy playing them even if they don't have monster DPS or 1Ks of HP.


Last night I ditched my warlock and TR'd into a Halfling Druid. Why? well I tried the Pure Melee Warlock, the Blaster Warlock, the DC Warlock and even the Hybrid Blaster/DC Warlock. I had fun, but it just didn't match my style as much as I hoped. I did druid once before on a different character and I felt I missed out on some of its abilities since I went Wolf/Strength based. This time I'm going Wisdom based. Even had fun doing the whole Korthos Island chain without ship buffs on Elite.

So as always my best advice I can give you is build your character for you. Examine its weaknesses and strengths and ask yourself what can I do to do better next time. Example; On a melee against a large mob what are you doing to reduce your exposure? Are you using doorways? Are you using Narrow hallways. Remember the reason the Spartan's could hold a whole army at bay was not because they were stronger, it was because they made the opposing army fight on their terms... What are you doing to do that?

[FranOhmsford]

im

items that a sorcerer should be making use of at level 13 dps power wise.

cloak of flames level 15 when taken to tier 3 can be masterful crafted to become level 13 and have
combustion 90 and fire lore 15% on.

braces of the wind level 15 crafted to level 13 magnetism 90 lightning lore 15% also has blurry
and dodge on.

I'm NEVER going to have either of those items!

I absolutely LOATHE the Cannith Challenges!

there are also a robe for ice and boots for acid so all elements can be covered. it is also not unreasonable
to believe a 2nd life would have spell crit from epics on a hot bar too so as you can see power is easy to
obtain .

Cannith Challenges again?


Also...I'm sorry but how on Eberron can you compare the ease of building a Warlock with having to search out ultra specific gear AND craft it to make an equal Sorc?


I know perfectly well that the Uber Players out there can get every last piece of gear they need for every build with ease - I CAN'T!

And Builds that rely on specific gear like that are in no way equal to builds that don't!

i will repeat, it is only when two classes are geared and built properly can we compare them together
and im afraid fran that by you compairing your own characters you are coming from a false premise so
please stop asking for nerfs until you start building/gearing right and can make a proper judgement.

Wrong - Totally and utterly Wrong!

It's the player that counts NOT the Gear!

And I'm the same player whether I'm on my Warlock, my Sorc, my paladin, my Cleric, my whatever!

I don't become an Uber Player when playing my Warlock!
I don't become a terrible Player when playing my Sorc!

I have the exact same skill set, the exact same ability to get the gear needed for each, the exact same knowledge of the Quests I'm running!

It doesn't matter one jot if some Uber Player out there can build a Sorc that wipes the floor with my Warlock because that Player CANNOT build a Sorc that would wipe the floor with a Warlock also built by him/her!
And it's far more likely to be the other way round!


And we all know that sooner or later Warlock is going to be hit hard with the nerf bat - It's blatantly obvious how Overpowered they are!

My point is that the Devs need to know where the real problem lies so they can get it right!



Warlock has no.... I repeat NO downside!

They have the best of Everything!

Nerfing their DPS would just turn them into a bad Class - Especially as we know Wizards/Sorcs are going to get boosted at some point anyway.

And it's the massive Self-Defense of the Warlock that is the REAL ISSUE anyway! {Without Shining Through my Warlock would still be more powerful than my Sorc but would die very often! - JUST LIKE MY SORC!}.

And I've even given a meet me half way option where Shining Through could be moved to Enlightened Spirit Capstone to help Enlightened Warlocks in Epics only!

[Lemdog]

Come on guys and girls you all know this ability is just stupidly ludicrously Overpowered!

NOTHING can touch a Warlock in Heroic Levels!

An ability that more than doubles your standard HPs is just ridiculous in every way!

Warlocks already have close to if not the top DPS in the game. They don't need to have such a massive defensive boost at the same time!


And yes - The best Players can blast through Heroic Elite BBs right up to Heroic Cap with no trouble whatsoever and only the occasional death - Heck they can solo them with 5 other people trying to keep up - on pretty much any character and build.
BUT
I am demonstrably NOT one of the best Players! I'm not even close!

I took a Lvl 19 Stalwart Vanguard Fighter into Subversion on Heroic Elite {that's two levels over BB btw!} and got my butt handed to me by the first bunch of Abishai!
My Warlock has just taken Lvl 15 but I have no doubt that I could clear that quest with ease right now - I'm not going to because of hurting my xp elsewhere but just saying!

I have 280 or thereabouts HPs on said Warlock {well I did at Lvl 14} and 615+ with Shining Through going} - Throughout every Lvl 11 and 12 quest on Elite I went below 200 hps exactly once! {I got hit by a mine in Made to Order that dropped me to -4 but that was a one off! And I've never made it through that quest without dying before on ANY Character!}.


IF Warlocks do lose potency in Epics then my suggestion would be to move Shining Through to Enlightened Capstone - As a Tier 5 it's just blatantly OP!




EDIT: Whoops...Sorry - Just remembered Whsiperdoom hit me with an Enlarged Soundburst {Round a corner as well} while I was trying to recast Shining Through so I did die once but then again that was my own fault for trying to solo Whisperdoom when my Acid Res had run out rather than waiting for the group to catch up.}.

By all means, nerf shining through! My warlock build doesnt use shining through, so im all 4 it.

[FranOhmsford]

I think the difference here is a comparison is skewed with the Eldritch blast (unlimited) vs Spells (limited by Spell Points). However, use of SLAs can help a Sorcerer.

That's the thing though - What's skewed is people saying that Sorcs have the same DPS as Warlocks when Sorc DPS is finite and Warlock isn't! A Warlock can do the equvalent of a Delayed Blast Fireball or Chain Lightning EVERY SINGLE HIT!

The Sorc has no chance of ever coming close to that!

Desert Caravan is a Timed encounter with two shrines. Are you using the shrines? Or are you having trouble using them because of agro?

Some hints if the issue is using the shrines. Scrolls of the Highest Summon Monster you can get your hands on and cast. Next, scrolls or wands of invisibility and Displacement or Shadow Walk. I like to lay down Webs. You have to be willing to let them beat on the caravan while you recharge.

Let them beat on the Caravan?

That = Quest Fail!

Aren't you forgetting the Archers on the ridge too?

There's no way FOR ME to shrine in that quest Solo - Heck even in a group it's virtually impossible to break off and shrine!

And My Webs don't have anything like the DC required.

I ran an entire life as a Fire Savant from 1 to 28. Yes when you run these quests and other high level quests where stuff is immune to Fire damage it can be really tough. However, you have enough AP to spend in an alternate Tree that can give you additional options. Also, having an alternate element helps at these times.

My second Element is Acid and the ONLY Acid spell I have memorized is Melf's - Trying to kill stuff with Melf's is an exercise in frustration and it's there for Dotting Rednames only.

At Lvl 13 there's no way I can fit in Acid Blast/Acid Rain as I don't have the spell slots!

I remember being level 13 with 250 HP joining and getting kicked right away from a Chains of Flames Heroic Elite group. Getting a tell right away that I didn't have enough HP. They even changed their LFM to must have 300+ HP. I put up my own LFM, even filled it with others with less than 300 HP. The entire time I kept getting slam tells from the PL that decided I was not good enough, all of which I ignored. We did the whole quest no deaths got all the optional XP every slave and even freed the dwarf and the group had a blast. Now, when I was level 16 running in the Orchard this same person joined one of my LFMs, made a comment about how everyone had half the HP they had and how gimped we all were. They then proceeded to run the quest and even with other party members trying to help keep them up managed to die multiple times while no one else even came close.

I remember those days too and I'm very glad they're gone!

However I tried to run OoB with myself, a Barb who joined me and two Cleric hires and we didn't even get through the first door! {Fireballs were being Evaded, Scorch was being Evaded, Scorching Ray was literally the only thing that worked and I was getting hit for 100+ dmg a time by mobs behind me while trying to kill the ones in front.

I did try to get the 3 soulstones but no heals meant no chance!


Some people think PRR is OP but you try running E-BB OoB with 0 PRR!

What is my point? It is not a matter of how many HP you have, it is a matter of how you use those HP. Some people's play style requires lots of HP to survive. Some don't require as many.

TBH I think I was being generous when I said 250 - Definitely over 200.

My Sorc was terrible as an Ice Savant on her 1st Life and is terrible as a Fire Savant on her 2nd!

I did run Molineux through a Sorc life but he's Warforged and I went Acid - That was OK but his FavSoul life was better and his Paladin Life puts them both to shame {PRE Paladin Buff!}.

It is too bad you feel you have a weak character. Sure DC casting is not the same as it was, broken by the inflated stats and the epic nerf to enchantment and debuff spells. But it can still work to some extent if that is how you want to play. I enjoy playing my wizard especially in groups using my Spell points to make the party better be that by enhancing their DPS or removing targets hard to reach but causing them to have to spend time healing. I also do spend time changing up my spells based on the content I'm running. A practice that I think all casters that can do this at a shrine/tavern should do to some extent. I think many times people are having trouble with SP management can be linked back to the spells they have picked - some because they think those are the only good spells and some because they don't understand situational spells.

I keep hearing people saying that Web and Blade Barrier are OP - I can't get either to hit the mobs! {I have no idea how the old Warforged FavSouls back in 2009/2010 managed to get BB to do anything at all with Dumped Wisdom!}.

DC Casting has ALWAYS been there for those who can build/gear for it and everyone else can go swivel!

I enjoy playing my cleric and this life have totally ditched the Radiant Servant Tree and having a blast using negative energy.

If I wanted to play a Pale Master I'd play a Wizard NOT a Cleric!

I can't stand the Divine Disciple tree!

I play Melee Clerics but I want my spells to have some chance of actually working too!

Last night I ditched my warlock and TR'd into a Halfling Druid. Why? well I tried the Pure Melee Warlock, the Blaster Warlock, the DC Warlock and even the Hybrid Blaster/DC Warlock. I had fun, but it just didn't match my style as much as I hoped. I did druid once before on a different character and I felt I missed out on some of its abilities since I went Wolf/Strength based. This time I'm going Wisdom based. Even had fun doing the whole Korthos Island chain without ship buffs on Elite.

Of course Warlock isn't for everyone - There'll always be people who just don't like the playstyle or find how OP they are Boring!

I've tried to play a Druid - I was desperate to get the past lives to help my Hirelings BUT I cannot stand the Class!

Honestly I'm finding Warlock a Blast even though I hated the very idea of it being put into the game in the first place!
I will be unhappy when the inevitable nerfbat hits!
But I can see that that nerfbat is necessary!

[Qhualor]

By all means, nerf shining through! My warlock build doesnt use shining through, so im all 4 it.

Neither do I. I wonder how I'm able to survive without it..