The Divine Cuisinart: A dual khopesh wielding pure tempest ranger in divine crusader

[Grailhawk]

Ofcourse you can say that +5 prr is better than +30 hp. That EHP doesn't agree only means that 30 hp is better for that which EHP is used for, how large of a hit you can take without dying.
That is however far from the only consideration when it comes to what is best between +5 prr and 30 hp. Mitigation increases the effectiveness of your healing, which increases your survivability (your "sustain").

Its not just how large a hit you can take it is how much damage you can take before mitigation does its reduction.

The fact that mitigation effectively increases the efficiency of your healing, is not a factor in determining EPH it just means healing you is easier then healing the 0% mitigation massive hit point pool alternative tank. There survival is the exact same other wise and with limitless SP in this game its not really a factor at all.

[Axeyu]

Its not just how large a hit you can take it is how much damage you can take before mitigation does its reduction.

The fact that mitigation effectively increases the efficiency of your healing, is not a factor in determining EPH it just means healing you is easier then healing the 0% mitigation massive hit point pool alternative tank. There survival is the exact same other wise and with limitless SP in this game its not really a factor at all.

If the assumption is limitless healing, then sure.

[Grailhawk]

If the assumption is limitless healing, then sure.

Even if it wasn't limitless we still are not talking about differences big enough to force you to needing to hit the heal button twice. Not at 30 HP vs 5 PRR.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Those statements contradict each other.

Effective hit ponts gives you the number of damage you can take befor death that is by definition survivability.

Saying otherwise either means you don't underrated EHP or your deliberately being miss leading to make your faulty logic seam more appealing, like people who say the world is flat or that there is no global warming due to CO2 output by human.

i can understand the numbers without agreeing with the value of their practical application, or lack thereof.

Exactly and that's why healing and avoidance are meaningless when discussing EHP, they do not factor in to EHP.

Healing, Avoidance, and EHP all factor into total survivability. EHP is not the only factor and should not be the only consideration.

so basically effective hit points =/= survivability? ok

[Grailhawk]

so basically effective hit points =/= survivability? ok

At 0 EHP you are dead. EHP = Survivability the more EHP you have the more you will survive.

[BigErkyKid]

At 0 EHP you are dead. EHP = Survivability the more EHP you have the more you will survive.

You are right in this discussion.

What would you prefer to take to a fight against a mob that deals physical damage of 500 a pop:

A) 100 PRR & 1000 HPs

B) 0 PRR & 2000 HPs

The answer is that it is indifferent.

What matters is how much damage you can take before dying. There is a exact mathematical equivalence between raw HPs given by well, CON and and what not, and the "effective" HPs that are given by some extra PRR. This is:

Damage to die (or effective hit points): (Raw hit points)*(1/damage reduction).

Now say you want to know how many HPs should you be willing to trade for say 10 PRR. Well, it would be the amount that gives the same EHP:

(Raw hit points+Unknown extra HPs)*(1/damage reduction) = (Raw hit points)*(1/(damage reduction-with extra 10 PRR-))

Here Raw hit points and damage reduction are parameters, call them a and b respectively. The potential new damage reduction is also known, call that c. Denote X the unknown, extra HPs needed to equate. So you have:

(a+X)*(1/b)=a*(1/c)

Which becomes:

X= {a* [(1/c)/(1/b)]}-a

Input the parameters and it will solve your problem.

It is quite clear that Grailhawk is right. Of course all this is only true for physical damage.

[Grailhawk]

Damage to die (or effective hit points): (Raw hit points)*(1/damage reduction).

you used the wrong equation.

HP/(1-M%) = EPH

Where M% = rate of mitigation.

so at 1000 hp with 50% mitigation we have an EPH of 2000

1000/0.5 = 2000
1000/(1/0.5) = 1000/2 = 500

[BigErkyKid]

you used the wrong equation.

HP/(1-M%) = EPH

Where M% = rate of mitigation.

so at 1000 hp with 50% mitigation we have an EPH of 2000

1000/0.5 = 2000
1000/(1/0.5) = 1000/2 = 500

You know what I mean. Yes, of course input the correct value. Just went through it quickly. It is nevertheless easy to substitute:

Here Raw hit points and damage reduction are parameters, call them a and b respectively. The potential new damage reduction is also known, call that c. Denote X the unknown, extra HPs needed to equate. So you have:

(a+X)/(1-b))=a/(1-c)

which becomes

X= {a* [(1-b)/(1-c)]}-a

[BigErkyKid]

you used the wrong equation.

HP/(1-M%) = EPH

Where M% = rate of mitigation.

so at 1000 hp with 50% mitigation we have an EPH of 2000

1000/0.5 = 2000
1000/(1/0.5) = 1000/2 = 500

Just for clarification, though. That's not what I wrote. I wrote:

1000* (1/DR)

Which is

1000/DR

For example 1000*(1/.5)=1000*2=2000

But it doesn't matter one bit for the discussion. Again you were right originally. You just need to plug your parameters to the equality I gave you to see what is the best decision.

[Grailhawk]

Just for clarification, though. That's not what I wrote. I wrote:

1000* (1/DR)

Which is

1000/DR

For example 1000*(1/.5)=1000*2=2000

But it doesn't matter one bit for the discussion. Again you were right originally. You just need to plug your parameters to the equality I gave you to see what is the best decision.

Does not matter for the discussion. (but we should put the right equation out there in case any one wants to use it)

1000/0.75 = 1333 by your equation having 75% DR is wore then then having only 50%.

I think your original equation had a typo the right equation is EHP = HP/(1-DR) or EHP = HP*(1/(1-DR))

[CThruTheEgo]

I thought about his some more, IMO the best way to do that is to look at average number of swings before death. The issue with looking at it this way is that it will change based on mob damage.

Scenario 1 (Mitigation)
HP = 995
PRR = 130 = 56.52% reduction
EHP = 2288
Avoidance = 43.26% = 1-(1-.11)(1-.15)(1-.25)
on average it will take a mob 1/(1-.4326) = 1.76 swings to hit you

Scenario 2 (Avoidance)
HP = 915
PRR = 125 = 55.56% reduction
EPH = 2058
Avoidance = 47.73% = 1-(1-.18)(1-.15)(1-.25)
on average it will take a mob 1/(1-0.4773) = 1.91 swings to hit you

so now lets look at some mob damage values before prr

Mob Damage	Swings to Death (Mitigation)	Swings to Death (Avoidance)
3000	2288/3000 * 1.76 = 1.34	2058/3000 * 1.91 = 1.31
1500	2.68	2.62
750	5.37	5.24
500	8.05	7.86
250	16.11	15.72

looks like on average the mitigation scenario will get you an extra swing sooner than the avoidance scenario. But this isn't as hard and fast or 100% accurate like the PRR vs HP use EPH to see whats better debate.

Nice analysis Grailhawk. I appreciate the effort to try to quantify this. Changing 3 feats would require me to LR or do several feat swaps. The results are close enough that I'm not sure it's worth the effort. But at least now I know that.

[Hobgoblin]

im looking at this build and thinking hard about doing a tr to it.

The only thing that worries me is the weapons.

I dont have any kopeshes on this guy - so that means i can go -

1. build as is and hunt down kops
2. go dwarf and be short. hunt down d-axes


main drawback to dwarf is loss of burst dps.

Thoughts?

I know i could craft some peshs but not sure if its worth it

[CThruTheEgo]

im looking at this build and thinking hard about doing a tr to it.

The only thing that worries me is the weapons.

I dont have any kopeshes on this guy - so that means i can go -

1. build as is and hunt down kops
2. go dwarf and be short. hunt down d-axes


main drawback to dwarf is loss of burst dps.

Thoughts?

I know i could craft some peshs but not sure if its worth it

Khopeshes are definitely the superior dps weapon for this build. Your dps will still be solid with something else though, so if you don't really want to put the effort into it, I'd say you don't have to, especially if you don't plan to stay as this build for long. If you do plan to stay at cap with this build though, then I'd probably go with khopeshes personally.

[CThruTheEgo]

OP is updated for U29. The only thing not updated is the gear set. I'll have to check out U29 gear to determine any changes.

Well it looks like the extra level 30 regular feat will solve my problems discussed over the last few days. With that feat, I can drop mobility and spring attack to pick up toughness, epic toughness, and two weapon defense while keeping dodge. I ordered them in the OP in the ideal leveling order. Because I am already at level 28, however, I will switch spring attack at level 24 with toughness, mobility at level 6 with two weapon defense, and then take epic toughness at level 30. The end result is the same, but to follow the OP would require me to LR or do more feat swaps. These changes leave me with 1017 unbuffed hp, 132 PRR, and 45.81% miss chance.

The level 30 legendary feat will be scion of arborea. This seems like the highest melee (and ranged) dps option.

The level 29 epic destiny feat will be harbinger of chaos which, assuming most mobs in U29 are lawful, seems like the highest melee dps option. Deific warding would be a good defensive option for this build, but I think the defenses are pretty good now, so I'd rather emphasize dps.

The fourth twist will be impregnable mind. With symmetric strikes and balanced attacks (tier 4 and 3 respectively), I'm limited to tier 1 twists for both the third and fourth twist slots, unless I want to grind out epic past lives for more fate points, which I don't. There aren't a lot of dps options for tier 1 twists. I haven't had many problems with any of my saves, but will was the lowest. Unearthly reactions from magister is also an option I considered. It provides 6 reflex and 3 dodge. That would help make up the lost dodge from dropping mobility and spring attack.

That's it for now. As always, feedback is welcome and appreciated.

[RS-Makk]

I've been wondering, why symmetric strikes over the usual 'go to' sense weakness (I seem to recall other threads where some folks stated symmetric strikes damage was actually less than SW given it's limited to physical damage)?

If you did have more points from past lives (31 points), what would you go with for the twists?

(and PS - I've been running the build except dex based and it's been tons of fun.. DPS off the charts. Only drawback has been defenses... so the recent discussions / changes are of significant interest to me. I also now have enough materials for my Tier 3 TF (fire phlogs, will do Draconic Reinvigoration) and my TOEE weapons - and just scored a scorched light armor from TOEE - .. just need to decide whether to craft scimis or switch to strength/khopesh before I do so).

[Hobgoblin]

Khopeshes are definitely the superior dps weapon for this build. Your dps will still be solid with something else though, so if you don't really want to put the effort into it, I'd say you don't have to, especially if you don't plan to stay as this build for long. If you do plan to stay at cap with this build though, then I'd probably go with khopeshes personally.

kk what about the dorf v hummie?

and what about scimis?

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Nice ideas here on this build. Some "twists" to consider:

- If reducing/eliminating the ranged fighting capability, you could take Human Core Enhancements 2-4, to increase your damage stat depending on build (STR/DEX/INT) along with one other stat (could go CON or DEX or WIS depending on needs). Or just take the second core/damage stat alone.

- If INT based, and non-ranged; and since your plan only spends 1 point on Racial Enhancements, you could trade off the extra Feat for 2 INT with a Drow build if the 34 point build is not an option, for a Heroic TR run to 20, potentially use Shuriken as the ranged alternative.

- You could craft Mobility Feat into none/1/2-slotted crafting gear for alternative/lower level usage that provides the Feat, when/if needed.

- Would be very interested in seeing this same rigor applied to a pure Fighter TWF Khopesh, with a contrast of increased defense/hvy armor and more Feats applied due to Fighter (what that may look like), and how the two contrasting Khopesh builds compare.

[adrian69]

OP is updated for U29. The only thing not updated is the gear set. I'll have to check out U29 gear to determine any changes.

Well it looks like the extra level 30 regular feat will solve my problems discussed over the last few days. With that feat, I can drop mobility and spring attack to pick up toughness, epic toughness, and two weapon defense while keeping dodge. I ordered them in the OP in the ideal leveling order. Because I am already at level 28, however, I will switch spring attack at level 24 with toughness, mobility at level 6 with two weapon defense, and then take epic toughness at level 30. The end result is the same, but to follow the OP would require me to LR or do more feat swaps. These changes leave me with 1017 unbuffed hp, 132 PRR, and 45.81% miss chance.

The level 30 legendary feat will be scion of arborea. This seems like the highest melee (and ranged) dps option.

The level 29 epic destiny feat will be harbinger of chaos which, assuming most mobs in U29 are lawful, seems like the highest melee dps option. Deific warding would be a good defensive option for this build, but I think the defenses are pretty good now, so I'd rather emphasize dps.

The fourth twist will be impregnable mind. With symmetric strikes and balanced attacks (tier 4 and 3 respectively), I'm limited to tier 1 twists for both the third and fourth twist slots, unless I want to grind out epic past lives for more fate points, which I don't. There aren't a lot of dps options for tier 1 twists. I haven't had many problems with any of my saves, but will was the lowest. Unearthly reactions from magister is also an option I considered. It provides 6 reflex and 3 dodge. That would help make up the lost dodge from dropping mobility and spring attack.

That's it for now. As always, feedback is welcome and appreciated.

I asked your opinion about str vs dex on a pure ranger a while back and I ended up leveling up using pretty much your original schema, but I did switch over to dex, which forced me to do some slight redesign of the feats and AP. I'm also down some dmg based on stat to the Str version and have to think more about weapons with crit effects, which has been a little difficult vs the my gear and usual playstyle. I also had to farm out tier 3 TF scims, and I do not have the ToEE bonuses, so I hurt dps wise that way, but I am still glutton on farming more mushrooms to have a ToEE scim that competes with my ToEE Khop. I like scims for flavor. Aside-I found the last pages of post interesting because I feel fine defensively since I made feat changes starting with picking up epic reflexes, not compared to my TWF barbarian by any means, but I crawl through high level EEs in a timely manner, while sprinting through lower ones. I originally had combat expertise and WWA in there before my 2nd ETR, but found I wasn't clicking WWA enough for it to matter so gave it up for Maximize back and completionist. But over all, I still deal loads of single target damage, and it is a lot of fun.

Stats
10/18/16/14/10/8
I have 62 dex roughly boosted for an hour at a time. Can't give an exact breakdown w/o game access.

Feats:
1. precision
1h. dodge
3. mobility (Not sure of the value of this anymore, but can only think of replacing it with toughness. So 30 HPs vs 2% dodge. Sure they work out the same.
6. completionist
9. IC: Slash
12. IC: Ranged
15. Maximize
18. Quicken
21. OC
24. TWF Defense (Traded Spring Attack for this when I traded epic DR for Epic Reflexes. I didn't know it gave 5 PRR until my TR buddy suggested it. It made sense so that I was only losing 5 PRR, which I made up by taking survivalist 3. Which I hadn't done before)
26. PTWF
27. Epic Reflexes
28. Elusive Target (It works often when I don't need it too and hardly ever when I need it, so I have thought about taking Doubleshot. Downside is I only use my bow as an opener on MS or in certain situations. It's less time than I am standing toe to toe with a mob)

AP spread:

Human:
core 1 Damage Boost

Tempest: 45 spent
All cores= 6
Tier 1 top through 5 bottom (left to right using the x/2/1/x/1 system)
0/0/3/2/0= 5
3/0/0/2/3= 8
2/0/2/2/2= 8
2/0/3/2/2= 9
2/0/3/2/2= 9 (I went with 2 in DoD because it is often hard to use and I never have them lined up to hit 4 most of the time, I found 3 worked best for me.)

Deep Wood Sniper: 26
Cores 1-4= 4
3/3/0/0/0= 6
2/0/0/1/0= 3 (Dex to bow dmg finally)
2/3/3/0/0= 8
2/3/0/0/0= 5
0/0/0/0/0= 0

Harper: 8
Core 1= 1
2/0/2/0/0
0/0/0/3/0 (Thought about dropping KtA down by 2 and using it during boss fights only and using the two points to increase Crit mastery and DoD to rank 3. I go through my entire spell pool and a trinket most runs. But I am spamming KtA to keep it on timer a lot, when I know I shouldn't. Can never be too prepared.)

I am running Sense Weakness in Flawless Black set atm with Balanced Attacks and extra actions boosts.

Anyway, I have to think you. I wanted to run a dex a based ranger for a long time and you have my thanks as a starting point of where to play with all of the feats rangers have at their disposal. Saved me from running a PA/Cleave first life certainly, which wouldn't be to bad 1-15 really, but who wants to feat respec. The only thing I could do to flavor it would be to run it as a elf or dwarf. I definately plan to ETR one more time and rerun Str/Khops for another comparison or plug it into Lamm next time, if I have time.

[CThruTheEgo]

I've been wondering, why symmetric strikes over the usual 'go to' sense weakness (I seem to recall other threads where some folks stated symmetric strikes damage was actually less than SW given it's limited to physical damage)?

Do you have a link to any of those threads by chance? I'd be interested in what others have to say about this. I just figured symmetric strikes would go well with the high rate of attack and full stat mod on the offhand. Also, symmetric strikes is the better option for boss dps. Balanced attacks works great with dance of death, so sense weakness would definitely get good use. But at the same time, mobs are dead so fast with dance of death that I'm not sure it really matters much.

If you did have more points from past lives (31 points), what would you go with for the twists?

I'm not sure. Symmetric strikes or sense weakness, balanced attacks, and extra action boosts are twists I would not want to do without personally. So for the extra one, maybe favored enemy from primal avatar, hail of blows from gmof, or damage reduction from fotw.

(and PS - I've been running the build except dex based and it's been tons of fun.. DPS off the charts. Only drawback has been defenses... so the recent discussions / changes are of significant interest to me. I also now have enough materials for my Tier 3 TF (fire phlogs, will do Draconic Reinvigoration) and my TOEE weapons - and just scored a scorched light armor from TOEE - .. just need to decide whether to craft scimis or switch to strength/khopesh before I do so).

I'm anxious to check out the new greensteel to see if I need to replace either of the weapons.

kk what about the dorf v hummie?

and what about scimis?

Pretty much what I said before. Tempests got an update such that they will be powerful regardless of those kind of build choices. You can see from RS-Makk's and adrian69's posts above that they made significant changes and still had an effective tempest. unbongwah also offers an elf tempest. All of them are viable, powerful, and fun. But if optimal dps is your goal, then human with khopesh is it. Dwarf with dwarf axe, or something else with scimitar - both will do just fine, but they won't offer as much dps as human with khopesh. So it really depends on your priorities. If your priority is dps, as mine is, then go human with khopesh. If you don't want to bother farming weapons and don't mind the dps loss, go with whatever you have available. If you want a specific race or weapon for flavor, go for it. They will all make great tempests.

AP are pretty tight, so you won't have much to spend in the racial tree. You could pull from harper to invest in the racial tree and take some racial weapon enhancements to make up some of the difference, but it won't close the gap completely.

I hope that helps clarify your options.

Anyway, I have to think you. I wanted to run a dex a based ranger for a long time and you have my thanks as a starting point of where to play with all of the feats rangers have at their disposal.

Nice. I'm glad to hear this thread has been a good springboard for others to develop their own builds.

[Grailhawk]

The level 30 legendary feat will be scion of arborea. This seems like the highest melee (and ranged) dps option.

Scion of Arborea vs Scion of Ethereal based on what i see in your OP post.

You have 23 +10 base hide skill you then have +10 from camouflage. your dex is 42 which adds 16 for a total of 59 hide skill going to add 1 to make the math easier I'll say you clicked on the MotU mask for it.

152 melee power
4d6+22 sneak attack

21 STR MOD
11 Deadly
04 Profain
07 Whilring Blades
03 Thrill of the Hunt
04 Sword of Virtue
10 A growing Strom
07 KtA
01 Harper enchantment
68 Non Favored enemies total damage mod
81 Favored Enemies total damage mod

main hand base damage
4.5[1d8] + 81 15-18x4, 19-20x5 and 28 seeker
101.25 base damage
36.4 average seeker damage per hit (28)(.8+.5) =36.4
2.05 crit power
243.96 average damage per hit before melee power
36 (4*3.5 + 22 = 36) average sneak attack damage per hit before melee power

Base DPH
2.52(243.96) + 3.28(36) = 732.86

At +2 damage and +20 Melee power
2.72(248.06) + 3.58(36) = 803.60

At +20 sneak attack damage
2.52(243.96) + 3.28(56) = 795.45

So given what i know of you hide skill Arborea is better then Ethereal to get Ethereal higher then Arborea you would need

803.60 < 3.28x + 732.86
3.28x > 70.74
x > 22 sneak attack

or 22*3 = 66 hide skill

Even at 66 you probably are still better off with Arborea but should you look at your hide skill and see it significantly higher then 66 you might think about Ethereal.