The Divine Cuisinart: A dual khopesh wielding pure tempest ranger in divine crusader

[CrackedIce]

Looking for ways to improve the build's survivability, I decided to drop evasive dance, elaborate parry, and 1 rank each of improved reaction and improved dodge. That freed up 8 AP which I spent on survivalist 3, improved parry, and improved defense. Improved evasion isn't really needed and so far I haven't missed it. Elaborate parry is a great "oh ****" button, but I find I don't need it as much with better defenses. So 1% miss chance is a reasonable loss for a net gain of 30 hp, 18 PRR, 3 MRR, and deflect arrows every 2 seconds instead of 6.

I've also considered dropping some combination of dodge, mobility, and spring attack for some combination of two weapon defense, toughness, and epic toughness. Losing spring attack results in a net loss of another 1% total miss chance. Losing mobility results in a net loss of 3% total miss chance from the current 48%. Losing dodge results in a net loss of 5% total miss chance from the current 48%. Two weapon defense would add another 1% damage mitigation. Currently, I'm thinking it is worth it to trade spring attack for two weapon defense. I'm not sure where I stand regarding dodge/mobility vs toughness/epic toughness. It's basically 4% miss chance vs 80 hp. Losing dodge also means dropping improved reaction and improved dodge, thus freeing up another 2 AP. I'd probably spend those on human improved recovery for another 20 heal amp. Alternatively, I could drop mobility/spring attack for toughness/epic toughness, trading 3% miss chance for 80 hp.

I'd be interested to know what others think of these options, or any other suggestions.

I like Dodge and Mobility since Mobility allows higher dodge cap. Toughness and Epic Toughness gives you the added cushion of HP (together with survivalist III) that means you should not have to make sacrifices for added HP in gear related/other bonuses (of course I am referring to first life builds - no epic reincarnation - as others seem to forget that first lifers struggle with hp). Also survivalist III gives you PRR as well. I did not take added dodge values in Tempest, but went for 10 PRR instead since I know I will get hit. I also took two weapon defense for extra 5 PRR (I found it worthwhile for me). If I have to choose between PRR and dodge - I will generally choose more PRR - at least to hit around ~150 or so. blocking arrows every 2 seconds is completely worthwhile and you will never regret it.

I made a different choice of feats based on my personal play style as I chose Precision over PA, Empower Heal without quicken and took Dodge, Mobility, Toughness (Epic Toughness), two weapon defense, and improved crit slash for base 7 feats.

[Grailhawk]

Looking for ways to improve the build's survivability, I decided to drop evasive dance, elaborate parry, and 1 rank each of improved reaction and improved dodge. That freed up 8 AP which I spent on survivalist 3, improved parry, and improved defense. Improved evasion isn't really needed and so far I haven't missed it. Elaborate parry is a great "oh ****" button, but I find I don't need it as much with better defenses. So 1% miss chance is a reasonable loss for a net gain of 30 hp, 18 PRR, 3 MRR, and deflect arrows every 2 seconds instead of 6.

I've also considered dropping some combination of dodge, mobility, and spring attack for some combination of two weapon defense, toughness, and epic toughness. Losing spring attack results in a net loss of another 1% total miss chance. Losing mobility results in a net loss of 3% total miss chance from the current 48%. Losing dodge results in a net loss of 5% total miss chance from the current 48%. Two weapon defense would add another 1% damage mitigation. Currently, I'm thinking it is worth it to trade spring attack for two weapon defense. I'm not sure where I stand regarding dodge/mobility vs toughness/epic toughness. It's basically 4% miss chance vs 80 hp. Losing dodge also means dropping improved reaction and improved dodge, thus freeing up another 2 AP. I'd probably spend those on human improved recovery for another 20 heal amp. Alternatively, I could drop mobility/spring attack for toughness/epic toughness, trading 3% miss chance for 80 hp.

I'd be interested to know what others think of these options, or any other suggestions.

HBF: EWP: Khopesh
L01: Dodge
L03: Precision
L06: Toughness
L09: IC: Slashing
L12: IC: Ranged
L15: Maximize Spell
L18: Quicken Spell
L21: Overwhelming Critical
L24: Epic Toughness
L26: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
L27: Epic Damage Reduction
L28: Doubleshot

Is what I think you are looking for.

Some other thoughts If you want to not use the level 6 feat on toughness you can use the L28 feat on it and then swap the L24 to Epic Toughness (while leveling the L24 feat can be Toughness). Epic damage reduction is in conflict with Epic Reflex that's a bit of a bummer IMO since Epic Reflex means you never fail a save (assuming you hit the gear checks).

[Jasparion]

So the Lam raid threads are talking about mobs hitting for 2,500 to 3,000 damage on LE. Wondering what the PRR/MRR situation is like for a pure Ranger?

Thanks.

[Grailhawk]

So the Lam raid threads are talking about mobs hitting for 2,500 to 3,000 damage on LE. Wondering what the PRR/MRR situation is like for a pure Ranger?

Thanks.

PRR on this build (Tempest in DC)

28 Armor
35 Sheltering Item
17 Tempest Cores and Capstone
10 Improved Parrying
03 Improved Defense
12 Stalker Survivalist
10 Heavenly Presence
05 Two Weapon Defense
10 Epic Damage Reduction
130 Total Base

36 Max from Past lives gets us to
166 Total

There may be a little more you can get some where else but I think that's the basics

[CThruTheEgo]

Thanks for the feedback all.

i think picking up the prr and better deflect arrows were good moves (i didnt have survivalist 3 but the other prr i did), and add a lot of survivability over just a slightly higher miss chance. however, im not sure id switch feats for twf defense, and definitely not for toughnesses. hp is a highly overrated stat, imo. as long as you have sufficient hp that you arent getting bursted down very often you dont need more, and i dont consider hp as a true defense against anything except burst dmg, otherwise it is something to be defended and usually not worth over investing into.

I think I will switch spring attack for two weapon defense. I'd rather have another 1% damage mitigation than 1% damage avoidance. But I think I agree with you regarding toughness/epic toughness. I'd rather have the 4% damage avoidance instead of another 80 hp. I feel like I'm in a good spot now, so I probably don't need the extra hp.

I like Dodge and Mobility since Mobility allows higher dodge cap.

I'm no where near the dodge cap as it is, nor will I be approaching it anytime soon, so mobility only serves the purpose of providing another 2 dodge for me.

If I have to choose between PRR and dodge - I will generally choose more PRR - at least to hit around ~150 or so.

That's what I'm finding out with this build. My assassin ends up with a total miss chance of about 80% so, on that build, I went for as much dodge as I could reasonably reach to max out damage avoidance. Coupled with some PRR to help with the damage spikes, it works great for that build. But this build doesn't get anywhere near that. With this build, I initially thought I should strike a balance between damage mitigation and damage avoidance. But after playing it at cap, I'm finding it best to emphasize damage mitigation first and make damage avoidance secondary. So it seems that if you can't reach excessively high levels of damage avoidance, then it's best to focus on damage mitigation as much as you can.

So the Lam raid threads are talking about mobs hitting for 2,500 to 3,000 damage on LE. Wondering what the PRR/MRR situation is like for a pure Ranger?

Thanks.

I tend not to speculate on what can change before it goes live. And I don't play on Lam, so I have no idea what the reality is of those claims. I'll wait until it goes live, see for myself, and make adjustments accordingly.

PRR on this build (Tempest in DC)

28 Armor
35 Sheltering Item
17 Tempest Cores and Capstone
10 Improved Parrying
03 Improved Defense
12 Stalker Survivalist
10 Heavenly Presence
05 Two Weapon Defense
120 Total Base

36 Max from Past lives gets us to
156 Total

There may be a little more you can get some where else but I think that's the basics

There's also 10 from epic damage reduction.

[Grailhawk]

I think I will switch spring attack for two weapon defense. I'd rather have another 1% damage mitigation than 1% damage avoidance. But I think I agree with you regarding toughness/epic toughness. I'd rather have the 4% damage avoidance instead of another 80 hp. I feel like I'm in a good spot now, so I probably don't need the extra hp.

Mathematically toughness adds more survival then TWD.

PRR	Hit Points	Effective Hit Points
125 (55.56%)	885	1991
125	915	2058
125	965	2171
130 (56.52%)	885	2035
130	915	2104
130	965	2219

IMO heroic toughness is better then TWD.

[RS-Makk]

I get the limited value of elaborate parry, but evasive dance? (I don't understand the ins and outs as well as you guys, just seems like a real powerful ability).

Also, are any of the dps enhancement options to trade for increased survivability? Not sure which would make most sense if that was something to pursue? (Which do we get the least bang for the buck?)

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Mathematically toughness adds more survival then TWD.

PRR	Hit Points	Effective Hit Points
125 (55.56%)	885	1991
125	915	2058
125	965	2171
130 (56.52%)	885	2035
130	915	2104
130	965	2219

IMO heroic toughness is better then TWD.

i dont think effective hp has anything to do with survivability.

first off, effective hp is not a real number and doesnt exist in real game play.

secondly, when you can heal yourself, your effective hp is your hp * mitigation mod * avoidance mod * (avg heal mod / sp cost) = a stupidly big number. but the fact is you will die long before you take that amount of damage, unless you heal yourself, which you are going to.

since you are going to heal yourself, i dont see the point of more hp or more hp investment past a point, while i do see a lot more value in effects which reduce the amount of healing needed to keep your hp above 0, which is the bottom line about the number of hp you have. personally i find healing to be near infinite from an sp perspective, but cool downs and csw not necessarily healing for .9 or 1.5 or whatever my max hp can be significant at times, like when you have an entire wave of reinforcements aggrod on you in ee doj because your dod dps is...dod dps... so reducing the healing needed seems more valuable to me because there is nothing much more for me to do to increase healing done, and nothing at all to do for me to lower my healing cool downs.

if we couldnt heal ourselves or healing didnt exist at all or had extremely long cool downs, maybe flat hp would be more valuable, but presently i think its quite overrated and effective hp should not be equated with survivability.

[Grailhawk]

i dont think effective hp has anything to do with survivability.

first off, effective hp is not a real number and doesnt exist in real game play.

secondly, when you can heal yourself, your effective hp is your hp * mitigation mod * avoidance mod * (avg heal mod / sp cost) = a stupidly big number. but the fact is you will die long before you take that amount of damage, unless you heal yourself, which you are going to.

since you are going to heal yourself, i dont see the point of more hp or more hp investment past a point, while i do see a lot more value in effects which reduce the amount of healing needed to keep your hp above 0, which is the bottom line about the number of hp you have. personally i find healing to be near infinite from an sp perspective, but cool downs and csw not necessarily healing for .9 or 1.5 or whatever my max hp can be significant at times, like when you have an entire wave of reinforcements aggrod on you in ee doj because your dod dps is...dod dps... so reducing the healing needed seems more valuable to me because there is nothing much more for me to do to increase healing done, and nothing at all to do for me to lower my healing cool downs.

if we couldnt heal ourselves or healing didnt exist at all or had extremely long cool downs, maybe flat hp would be more valuable, but presently i think its quite overrated and effective hp should not be equated with survivability.

Effective hit points tells you exactly how much damage you can take before you die. If you don't understand that or just want to be ignorant and not understand that that's fine but you are wrong saying it does not equate to survivability.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Effective hit points tells you exactly how much damage you can take before you die. If you don't understand that or just want to be ignorant and not understand that that's fine but you are wrong saying it does not equate to survivability.

i dont think ive demonstrated any lack of understanding of what effective hp is or means.

in any case, this was not a convincing counter argument.

[Grailhawk]

...effective hp should not be equated with survivability.

i dont think ive demonstrated any lack of understanding of what effective hp is or means.

Those statements contradict each other.

Effective hit ponts gives you the number of damage you can take befor death that is by definition survivability.

Saying otherwise either means you don't underrated EHP or your deliberately being miss leading to make your faulty logic seam more appealing, like people who say the world is flat or that there is no global warming due to CO2 output by human.

[CThruTheEgo]

Thank you dwarfforged and Grailhawk for the discussion. I think you are both making some valid arguments and I appreciate this kind of dialogue regarding optimization.

I see your point, Grailhawk, that the added hp from toughness effectively amounts to more due to prr. I think your comparison of various amounts of prr, hp, and effective hp is a useful method of evaluating their relative benefits. It definitely has me thinking about following your suggestion of dropping both mobility and spring attack for toughness/epic toughness. And just a minor correction, the build currently has 915 hp with survivalist 3. I forgot to change that in the OP. I notice that does not change the point of your original comparison though.

I have to ask if there is any way to make a similar comparison for dodge. I'm wondering if it is worthwhile to drop all of dodge, mobility, and spring attack for toughness, epic toughness, and two weapon defense. That would leave me with only 11 dodge from an item, but also 15% incorp and 25% concealment.

Effective hit ponts gives you the number of damage you can take befor death that is by definition survivability.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this entirely. In actual gameplay, it amounts to the same thing, but this is really about how many hits you can take rather than how much damage you can take. When I take damage, the only number I see is already reduced by PRR. So saying that with 915 hp and 125 prr I can take 2058 points of damage isn't quite accurate. If I have 915 hp and 125 prr and mobs still hit me for 200 points of damage, I simply can't survive more than 5 of those hits even though that's much less than 2058. It's also true that if I had 915 hp and 0 prr, those same hits would land for 400+ points of damage and I wouldn't survive more than 2-3 of them. It's also true that if I had 2000 hp and 0 prr, those same hits would land for 400+ points of damage and I'd be able to survive the same number of hits as if I had 915 hp and 125 prr. In this regard, it's more about the number of hits I can take rather than the actual damage taken and I think the value of dwarfforged's point about healing comes into play here. Being able to take more hits means a wider window of opportunity to recover from them.

In any case, I appreciate the discussion and hope to hear more as I'm still undecided about final feat choices.

[CThruTheEgo]

I get the limited value of elaborate parry, but evasive dance? (I don't understand the ins and outs as well as you guys, just seems like a real powerful ability).

Evasive dance only does something when you fail a reflex save. So basically, if you have evasion and you are not failing your saves, then you don't get much use out of improved evasion. If you have evasion and make your save, you take no damage. If you have evasion and fail your save, you take full damage. If you have max ranks of evasive dance, or improved evasion (free to monks at level 9 or selectable as a rogue special feat starting at rogue level 10), and fail your save, you take only half damage. Everyone fails on a 1 unless you have some special ability which allows you to not fail on a 1 (such as the epic reflexes feat). So yes, there will be times this build will fail its reflex save and take full damage, but that's not nearly as big of a threat as the constant melee damage taken throughout every quest. For that reason, I value PRR more than evasive dance.

Also, are any of the dps enhancement options to trade for increased survivability? Not sure which would make most sense if that was something to pursue? (Which do we get the least bang for the buck?)

Critical mastery is the first, and probably only, dps enhancement I would even consider dropping, but I don't even want to do that. With the excessive amount of mainhand and offhand doublestrike that tempests have, they get a lot more mileage out of any dps benefits than most other builds do. That's the main reason I did not want to pull AP from the dps enhancements. It's something I'd be willing to consider if new content requires it, but I don't think we are at that point currently.

[Grailhawk]

I have to ask if there is any way to make a similar comparison for dodge. I'm wondering if it is worthwhile to drop all of dodge, mobility, and spring attack for toughness, epic toughness, and two weapon defense. That would leave me with only 11 dodge from an item, but also 15% incorp and 25% concealment.

Not really. See below for more info.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this entirely. In actual gameplay, it amounts to the same thing, but this is really about how many hits you can take rather than how much damage you can take. When I take damage, the only number I see is already reduced by PRR. So saying that with 915 hp and 125 prr I can take 2058 points of damage isn't quite accurate. If I have 915 hp and 125 prr and mobs still hit me for 200 points of damage, I simply can't survive more than 5 of those hits even though that's much less than 2058. It's also true that if I had 915 hp and 0 prr, those same hits would land for 400+ points of damage and I wouldn't survive more than 2-3 of them. It's also true that if I had 2000 hp and 0 prr, those same hits would land for 400+ points of damage and I'd be able to survive the same number of hits as if I had 915 hp and 125 prr. In this regard, it's more about the number of hits I can take rather than the actual damage taken and I think the value of dwarfforged's point about healing comes into play here. Being able to take more hits means a wider window of opportunity to recover from them.

In any case, I appreciate the discussion and hope to hear more as I'm still undecided about final feat choices.

Effective Hit Points tells you how much damage you can take before PRR reduces the damage. If a mob hits for 3000 before prr reduction you know you will die even at full hp given the numbers in my earlier post. If it only hits for 1800 before reduction you know you will live.

Avoidance and Healing do not add effective hit points some times people try and use them as a way to inflate the numbers but they are not factors because you have to either take an action to make them count (healing) or get lucky (avoidance).

Let say we add avoidance to our ehp say 50% avoidance, 1000 hp, and 60% reduction that means before avoidance our ehp is 2500 if we then try and turn avoidance into ehp we get a total 5000 ehp which is false because if we are at full heal we can not take a 4500 damage hit. Same kind of think applies to healing. It is a mistake and confuses what ehp is to try and use it to measure suitability from avoidance and healing.

[Axeyu]

Avoidance and Healing do not add effective hit points some times people try and use them as a way to inflate the numbers but they are not factors because you have to either take an action to make them count (healing) or get lucky (avoidance).

They might not be a factor in your definition of ehp, but they are certainly useful. Especially healing, and mitigation improves the effectiveness of your healing.

[Grailhawk]

They might not be a factor in your definition of ehp, but they are certainly useful. Especially healing, and mitigation improves the effectiveness of your healing.

Not really.

EHP is a tool its best use is when comparing adding HP vs adding Mitigation%.

If you can cite an example of using EHP while factoring healing in is useful I might change my mind but when looking at healing all you really need to know is your avg healing per click or per second and EHP doesn't need to be looked at for that number. As for Avoidance% I cant see using EHP to measure it value as useful at all.

[Axeyu]

Not really.

EHP is a tool its best use is when comparing adding HP vs adding Mitigation%.

If you can cite an example of using EHP while factoring healing in is useful I might change my mind but when looking at healing all you really need to know is your avg healing per click or per second and EHP doesn't need to be looked at for that number. As for Avoidance% I cant sue using EHP to measure it value as useful at all.

The simplest way is to see healing as having more hp.

Your EHP is basically only useful to see how large of a hit you can take without dying. If you look at sustained incomming damage healing becomes a factor, and avoidance aswell.

[Grailhawk]

Your EHP is basically only useful to see how large of a hit you can take without dying.

Exactly and that's why healing and avoidance are meaningless when discussing EHP, they do not factor in to EHP.

Healing, Avoidance, and EHP all factor into total survivability. EHP is not the only factor and should not be the only consideration.

I used EHP to compare adding HP vs adding PRR that is a valid use of EHP and it adding to survivability. It's the only real use of EHP. If you want to say avoidance or healing are more important the HP and prr that's fine but you can't say +5 prr is better then +30 HP when EHP doesn't agree. (This last bit loops back round to dwarforged not what you are saying)

[Axeyu]

Exactly and that's why healing and avoidance are meaningless when discussing EHP, they do not factor in to EHP.

Healing, Avoidance, and EHP all factor into total survivability. EHP is not the only factor and should not be the only consideration.

I used EHP to compare adding HP vs adding PRR that is a valid use of EHP and it adding to survivability. It's the only real use of EHP. If you want to say avoidance or healing are more important the HP and prr that's fine but you can't say +5 prr is better then +30 HP when EHP doesn't agree. (This last bit loops back round to dwarforged not what you are saying)

Ofcourse you can say that +5 prr is better than +30 hp. That EHP doesn't agree only means that 30 hp is better for that which EHP is used for, how large of a hit you can take without dying.
That is however far from the only consideration when it comes to what is best between +5 prr and 30 hp. Mitigation increases the effectiveness of your healing, which increases your survivability (your "sustain").

[Grailhawk]

I have to ask if there is any way to make a similar comparison for dodge. I'm wondering if it is worthwhile to drop all of dodge, mobility, and spring attack for toughness, epic toughness, and two weapon defense. That would leave me with only 11 dodge from an item, but also 15% incorp and 25% concealment.

Not really.

I thought about his some more, IMO the best way to do that is to look at average number of swings before death. The issue with looking at it this way is that it will change based on mob damage.

Scenario 1 (Mitigation)
HP = 995
PRR = 130 = 56.52% reduction
EHP = 2288
Avoidance = 43.26% = 1-(1-.11)(1-.15)(1-.25)
on average it will take a mob 1/(1-.4326) = 1.76 swings to hit you

Scenario 2 (Avoidance)
HP = 915
PRR = 125 = 55.56% reduction
EPH = 2058
Avoidance = 47.73% = 1-(1-.18)(1-.15)(1-.25)
on average it will take a mob 1/(1-0.4773) = 1.91 swings to hit you

so now lets look at some mob damage values before prr

Mob Damage	Swings to Death (Mitigation)	Swings to Death (Avoidance)
3000	2288/3000 * 1.76 = 1.34	2058/3000 * 1.91 = 1.31
1500	2.68	2.62
750	5.37	5.24
500	8.05	7.86
250	16.11	15.72

looks like on average the mitigation scenario will get you an extra swing sooner than the avoidance scenario. But this isn't as hard and fast or 100% accurate like the PRR vs HP use EPH to see whats better debate.