Warlock

[Lonnbeimnech]

Why have you given PM an F?

Stalwart or Vanguard Fighter probably deserves a B- It's not as bad as people make out, Add 2 Pally to it and you've got a B+, Kensai however deserves a D- at most!

Monk C- - More like D.

Artificer D- - Add 2-5 Rogue Levels and it's an easy B, I'd push pure Arti up to C-.

Warlock is A++!
It's so far ahead of any other Class it's unbelievable! It's far easier to play a Warlock into Epics than any other Class - The Top players like yourself may get more survivability out of a Paladin or Barb but for everyone else Warlock is undeniably #1!

Wolf is Broken and We all know those Bugs = Exploits so take away those bugs and what is it? A B+? Still good but not in the same League as Paladins and Barbs and nowhere near Warlocks!


P.S. What about Bears, Acrobats and Spellsingers?

A wolf without exploits is about a D+. It's dps is in the same league as a stalwart defender using a longsword, but it's defense is not.

[LightBear]

All classes are a B, it's just min/maxing with proper (read: rare) gear setup that takes them beyond that.
And it's also flavouring (and blanc immunities) that takes thing downwards.

[slarden]

Why have you given PM an F?

Stalwart or Vanguard Fighter probably deserves a B- It's not as bad as people make out, Add 2 Pally to it and you've got a B+, Kensai however deserves a D- at most!

Monk C- - More like D.

Artificer D- - Add 2-5 Rogue Levels and it's an easy B, I'd push pure Arti up to C-.

Warlock is A++!
It's so far ahead of any other Class it's unbelievable! It's far easier to play a Warlock into Epics than any other Class - The Top players like yourself may get more survivability out of a Paladin or Barb but for everyone else Warlock is undeniably #1!

Wolf is Broken and We all know those Bugs = Exploits so take away those bugs and what is it? A B+? Still good but not in the same League as Paladins and Barbs and nowhere near Warlocks!


P.S. What about Bears, Acrobats and Spellsingers?

I am referring specifically to end game content. Warlocks are most certainly the only A++ in heroic content.

This is my experience and I except some of my ratings might be because my playstyle works better with some builds more than others.

I give Palemasters an F because the game is all about dps and palemasters don't have it. In end game content they are able to insta-kill easy targets only, but at the end of the quest their actual contribution is far less than their kill count would indicate. An efficient nuker like warlock clearly provides more benefit and even a less efficient nuker provides more benefit to the party than a PM.

PM self-healing hasn't kept up with enemy damage and other alternative forms of self-healing. I am more comfortable self-healing on my halfling assassin than I am on a PM. With all the sources of healing amp, palemasters are missing out on free healing from things like crusade. PMs are less able to heal through big damage spikes compared to other builds.

Lastly, PM sp pools are insufficient for end game content. They might possibly be able to solo end game content on EE with a torc and other sp regen items and/or sp pots, but it would be so painfully slow it's not worth it. In a party they will just insta-kill easy targets to get a respectable kill count, but their kill count in no way accurately reflects the actual total # of enemy hp reduced compared to others. CC is very underwhelming compared to a druid.

If you want to stroll through a heroic TR a PM is fine - anything is for that matter. If you want to run eeAmarath, a PM underperforms significantly. I doubt a PM would be welcome in an EE defiler of the Just run. This all comes from someone that ran a PM necro-enchanter pre-U14 for the old epics and quite a bit since. I enjoy playing the class and think I do a good job playing one, there is just no point playing one at end game right now.

[slarden]

If you know what you're doing Warlock is easily the most OP class in the game that isn't a broken unintended not supposed to work that way synergy, in other words Tree, Wolf, Warlock. Chain blast DPS is like cleaving from a remote location without the mobs needing to be close together... It's like being able to launch a cleave attack only it's got no cooldown and a high rate of fire, into a room from outside that room, that has an area about as big as maybe half the end fight room of Feast or Famine, hitting monsters that are half a room apart that the warlock literally can't see or target, that a melee would have to run to individually.

I don't think people realize what DPS is some times... damage per second, when you can clear a room without entering and it's half cleared before the first melee gets through with a single mob... that's pretty much the definition of top DPS. They literally are better off not casting any spells, even Evards is a DPS loss unless you Enlarge it so it can be cast before you are in range of E-blast maybe.. And I've not even touched on ES (Easybutton Spirit) Aura+Burst builds... which are the FOTM but are not even the most powerful Warlocks, just the most popular.

Warlock plays like this:

1. if mobs not dangerous: hold LMB and run forward
2. if mobs are dangerous: hold LMB and run backwards

I think people who don't consider them OP "in epic" aren't playing them right. Not using the right blast shape or are doing something wrong like running into the room or I don't know: aiming? or something? If you're bored and want to show off you can circle strafe instead of running backwards. This will have the benefit of letting a melee Paladin or Barb actually hit the mobs a few times when they circle back around near him, this way the melee can feel like he's contributing, hey I'm a nice guy like that, most Warlocks just backpedal all the mobs away from the furiously air swinging melee and laugh.

There are so many reasons Warlock is OP I'm not even going to continue, you can start by realizing that every single aspect of Eldrich blast is superior to SP based casting of heroic damage spells, crit %, multiplier, 110% to 150% power scaling, base damage, rate of fire, resistance of mobs, EVERY SINGLE ASPECT, and work back from there until you find something Eldritch blast isn't better than a heroic nuke at and come report it here because it'll be the first one..

From my perspective a properly spec'd barbarian/paladin should be able to match dps with a warlock, but with slightly better survivability. I would say the opposite of what you are saying - if a barbarian or paladin can't match warlock dps they are doing something wrong. When I run my barbarian or paladin it's rare for a warlock to out-kill me - and alot of times its as you say because the warlock is running around mobs so I just focus on what I can. Still a warlock can't match my paladin's boss dps - not even close.

My warlock build is in my sig - feel free to note any improvements on dps. I don't run mobs around - For big mobs I start with an evard's and if I can't take the damage I run in a small circle around the evards, but I usually try to time my divine wrath such that it hits at an opportune time restoring my health to full. There are opportunities to improve my spellpower by using the libram of silver magic and TOEE set - but the increase in dps would be minimal compared to what I already have.

The pew-pew dps method you are referring to is not the best dps a warlock can have. A build using this approach will underperform a paladin/barbarian in all apsects - dps and defenses. I am not saying it can't have a good kill count, especially if not playing in a party-friendly manner.

The best dps I've seen is to use the passive aura and use other spells in a rotation like eldritch burst, spirt blast, energy burst, divine wrath, consume, stricken, avenging light, etc. If you have less than 18 levels of warlock or want to focus on cc you might use pew pew - otherwise the super powerful warlock build you are talking of above is not so strong.

The main reason I think a warlock is a notch below paladin and barbarian is its easier to die with the lower hp and lower saves. DPS is solid for all 3 classes and absolutely NOTHING can kill my paladin outside of maybe a few EE raids.

[Wanesa]

Yep, Warlocks are too OP. That is why my LFMs have always warlocks turned off.

[Kylstrem]

All classes are a B, it's just min/maxing with proper (read: rare) gear setup that takes them beyond that.
And it's also flavouring (and blanc immunities) that takes thing downwards.

You are playing wrong if you think Rare gear makes that big of a difference with the current builds that the forum paladins believe are OP.

[FifthTime]

Warlock, Paladin, Barbarian, and Mech Rogue (Wolf Druid too, although not WAI) are all stupidly OP.

The devs at Turbine have no understanding of balance and seem to be taking the advice of a few players who's only interest is seeing their own personally favorite classes buffed into ridiculousness.

This game has become a joke.

[Xenich]

I'm sorry if this is the 937th thread on this topic, I haven't really read the forums lately, but...

I've decided to TR my wizard to grab the last wiz PL on her and I found a +20 heart in bank so I thought I might as well level as warlock to check the class out and then respec back to wizard when I cap. Until last night I knew absolutely nothing about warlocks. I asked a few questions in guild and spent about 5 minutes planning my build. This morning I TR'd, rolled the warlock and proceeded to solo (with a barb hire) the first 30 or so quests on leet in about 2.5 hours, using almost exclusively gear I picked up in quests as I went (okay, I did grab a few pots and scrolls and crafted an impulse stick). I met next to no resistance, finished all quests with 90-95% mana left and didn't need to use a single shrine. I basically just zerged through the quests holding down the right mouse button, only stopping to do traps for extra XP. It wasn't particularly entertaining.

I have two questions:

1) ***?
2) Is the class as ridiculously OP at cap as it as at low level?* If it is, I have a bonus question: What were they thinking?

* After running a few EEs with a guildie who was on a capped warlock last night, I'm inclined to think it probably is.

I do the same on my monk, on my wizard, on my fighter. The real problem is the game is ridiculously easy.

As for balance issues, this is D&D, there is no balance in D&D. The whole "balance among classes" is a later MMO behavior that resulted from constant class envy wars.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I do the same on my monk, on my wizard, on my fighter. The real problem is the game is ridiculously easy.

As for balance issues, this is D&D, there is no balance in D&D. The whole "balance among classes" is a later MMO behavior that resulted from constant class envy wars.

Though there is balance between what the party can do and the adventure they are running. That's the element missing in this game.

[slarden]

I'm simply comparing my experience on a warlock in low level quests with my experience playing other classes in low level quests.

This is a very important distinction the OP makes and part of the problem with warlock discussions. Warlocks are definitely OP at heroic levels. At end game they are a top-tier build along with paladins, barbarians. melee druid using bugs, mechanic, etc.

Any nerfs should be made accordingly. I don't care about heroic leveling myself - it's a low priority to fix it.

At end game, they need to decide whether the strongest builds need a nerf and nerf accordingly or buff the subpar classes/prestiges and make "Reaper Difficulty" the solution for the lack of challenge.

If they nerf, it needs to be paladin, barbarian, warlock, druid melee, mechanic, etc. all being adjusted downward, but I favor the approach i think the devs are taking which is to be cautious with the nerf hammer and add a new setting for people that want more challenge.

[Xenich]

Though there is balance between what the party can do and the adventure they are running. That's the element missing in this game.

Absolutely, balance between the game and the class is a valid subject. My point was the demand for balance between classes themselves. Classes should never be balanced between each other, rather they should be balanced to the content they are tasked with completing. If a class is effective against the content, arguing over another class being "more effective" (often a poorly concluded perception) is just class envy and a common failing of developers to attend to in MMOs.

[JOTMON]

A wolf without exploits is about a D+. It's dps is in the same league as a stalwart defender using a longsword, but it's defense is not.

or otherwise known as bear form.

[Dandonk]

This is a very important distinction the OP makes and part of the problem with warlock discussions. Warlocks are definitely OP at heroic levels. At end game they are a top-tier build along with paladins, barbarians. melee druid using bugs, mechanic, etc.

That's my experience, as well. At end game, they are not better than the other top tier builds. And with the lag they seem to bring, much less desirable in a raid.

[Talam]

As others have said, easily the strongest out of the gate, but by epic levels there are at 2 or 3 classes that beat it hands down.

[Micron]

Just soloed leet STK in 28 minutes. It's very boring but at least's it's going fast.

[Kylstrem]

Just soloed leet STK in 28 minutes. It's very boring but at least's it's going fast.

With or without optionals.

If without optionals (all the shards), that seems like a long time.

[Micron]

With or without optionals.

If without optionals (all the shards), that seems like a long time.

STK chain, not Tear of Dhakaan.

[Kylstrem]

STK chain, not Tear of Dhakaan.

Doh!

[Brac]

Yep, Warlocks are too OP. That is why my LFMs have always warlocks turned off.

That is because your ****, not because they are OP. If it was due to power level you couldn't group with Barbs, Pallys, Mechs, or Bards, you know, all of the uber classes that got passes recently.

[MaeveTuohy]

I rate the classes this way:

A: Paladin
A: Barbarian
A: Druid Melee utilizing favorable bugs
A-: Warlock
A-: Swashbuckler or Warchanter
A-: Mechanic
B: Shiradi Caster
B: Assassin
B: New Tempest
B-: Sorc
B-: Druid Caster (But A for cc)
C: Fighter
C: Monk
C-: Favored Soul
D-: Cleric
D-: Artificer
D-: Archmaqe DC caster
F: Palemaster

Warlock doesn't scale well. It's a top-tier build but just below Paladin and Barbarian at level 28 - barely. However, nothing beats warlock at heroic levels. There is no question it's OP at heroic levels.

Yes. Having played three warlock lives now, I can concur that it's nuts in heroic, and great and churning through trash mobs in epic, but just doesn't get the massive crit numbers to deal with red named mobs as well as the better DPS melees, and it's tentacles, and hurls don't trap or instakill them either, so it's just the slow grind of the bursts.