When does an archer put down his bow and grab a sword?

[Eth]

but it's surprisingly fast with all that proper gear, feats, & with high enough DS% really myth-shattering.

There are no myths. You could simply use math and see what's better.
You know why people don't run doubleshot archer builds? Because they don't produce as many attacks per second as a 10k star build. As simple as that.

On a 50+ Wisdom build with 10k stars you produce around about 1.2 extra arrows per shot during 10k stars.
10k stars has an uptime of 50%, which translates into what would roughly be 60% DS if you simply cycle it everytime it comes off cooldown.
In reality that's higher though, since you'll typically use it in situations where it matters and not hit the button every time you are off cooldown.

Now how much doubleshot can we have?
9 PL + 8 item + 5 shadow arrows + 20 capstone + 3 elf + 10 feat = 55 sustained
Now you can add killer for 0 - 20 extra DS situationally.

Why is DS still worse? Because of manyshot and manyshots DS penalty, which cuts down 58% of your doubleshot uptime.
So instead of 55% - 75% DS your actual average DS is only around 23% - 32%.
A 10k stars build doesn't really care about that, since there are only 15 seconds in a 120 second cycle where DS would even apply.
But whatever DS bonus you have would apply as some extra benefit in those 15 seconds.

Not using manyshot because of this doesn't help either. I don't have accurate numbers what the attacks per minute of a bow user with current alacrity bonuses is, but unless you have more than 80% DS, you should always be better off cycling manyshot.

Now if the DS penalty would be removed or cut to some degree, this would be a whole different talk, but as it stands currently, pure rangers are just far behind.

This is not any different on your own unique "rangerdanger" build.

[Augon]

This sounds a lot like playing a caster

Was your first clue, the word Arcane in the term, "Arcane Archer?"
But, in reality, if playing an Arcane Archer sounds a lot like playing a caster, I'm not sure you have played one. It is as different as can be.

No one said ranged DPS sucks. It doesn't.

You didn't. BUt it has been said on this thread.

Ranged DPS with a bow sucks

I think people have different ideas of what role they are building towards.

Some build to max out DPS and need to consider how to burst and sustain that damage over the entire combat
Some build to serve in the role of crowd control using AA for paralyze, terror, pin or even ottos

Now I also leverage the 3[w] of shattermantle and dispel arrow, and with the spell point pool as well as the other enhancements to power these other shots available to improve my damage while manyshot is on timer.

So there are lots of way to play an Archer in DDO, all are valid and all have different approaches to handling the situation.

Just a reminder that DPS is not always the goal or even the best solution to every problem.

I would say the first sentence of this post nails it. Hate that I forgot to mention the Dispelling shot. That is a commen attack I use. WOrks wonders on those Displaced mobs. An arcane archer that only has Manyshot and possibly 10k stars as options is missing the point of the build.

Put it this way...a ranger gets freebies in both melee and ranged...if you are not taking advantage of that, in my opinion you are not utilizing the class to its full potential. Against a parade of mobs lining up behind you or from a distance ranged is better. If you are in a group and you want to kill things quickly by focusing attacks on them, melee is better. But you have to be aware that unless you take the feats to get in on melee you will have to focus on ranged because you lack the PRR and MRR from heavy armor builds and will find yourself kiting when you get aggro. And kiting is not always a bad thing..for sure sometimes it can save lives...but as a ranger you should be versatile, thats why its a specialist class.

I just showed in that last build how you could very well make something as deadly and as defensive as other melees...or capable of participating alongside a bunch of other rangers, throwers, or casters. That's how you have fun, by going along with the theme of the party. Whether its stalking, zerging, or "gun fight"

Have you ever seen a Druid caster build that never switched to animal form? I have. HAve you ever seen a Druid animal build that never switched to elemental? I have. Both builds work. Yet both are not utilizing "free" stuff from the class so as to maximize the stuff they are using. In my opinion and experience the jack of all trades is a trap. A build does best if it picks a few things and does them very well. The switching to swords for better DPS in melee only works if you actually achieve better DPS in melee. The character that I play as an archer does not have better DPS with melee after he hits about lvl 6. And just to re-iterate, I do not often Kite, especially when in a group. I do not allow the class description to cookie cutter me into certain design decisions.

I did not need advice on how to make a character that can melee and range very well. I just TR'd a character that did that very well.

Nor do I see how you can tell me how "I have fun." LOL - I know how I have fun.

I guess that was the main misunderstanding here then.
14/6 pally/ranger or pally/monk are perfectly fine builds to never put down the bow (as I also stated in my earlier post).
I know you said archer, but since you put it in the ranger forum and said ranger lives I mistakenly assumed it's about pure rangers (shouldn't do that I guess). Sorry for that.
It's just a gripe I have. I think pure rangers (not archers) that only use a bow is one of the biggest "newb traps" in DDO.

Ah, I see how I caused the misunderstanding. Sorry about that. I put it in the Ranger forum because I figured I'd find the most ranged players and because the archer I play has been a Ranger for 3 lives. BUt to be honest, I have had good success with my pure archery Ranger lives so far. So I don't think they are as bad as some folks feel. Granted, they do not do the DPS, especially crowd DPS, that a melee with a Great Axe can do, but that's OK. They do not need to.

you make an argument for all rangers to focus on the new DWS. have you played a Tempest using a bow as a main weapon? melee dps far exceeds bows outside of Manyshot. the frebies are for a ranger 2WF line and a little bow damage. if you focus on AA, than your melee dps isn't going to be too comparable to front line melees. if you focus on Tempest, than your ranged dps isn't going to be comparable to any ranged build. imo, every ranger should be investing in deception to negate some of the incoming damage if they are toe to toe with mobs and they should have high dodge, blur/displace and good evasion. if a ranger is not utilizing their defenses and what is available to them playing like a barbarian than they will get hit hard and hit hard often.

Agreed - YOur DPS is always better, ranged or melee, when you are not a soul stone. Ranger has some great defenses and can often be the last man standing.

[Augon]

There are no myths. You could simply use math and see what's better.
You know why people don't run doubleshot archer builds? Because they don't produce as many attacks per second as a 10k star build. As simple as that.

On a 50+ Wisdom build with 10k stars you produce around about 1.2 extra arrows per shot during 10k stars.
10k stars has an uptime of 50%, which translates into what would roughly be 60% DS if you simply cycle it everytime it comes off cooldown.
In reality that's higher though, since you'll typically use it in situations where it matters and not hit the button every time you are off cooldown.

Now how much doubleshot can we have?
9 PL + 8 item + 5 shadow arrows + 20 capstone + 3 elf + 10 feat = 55 sustained
Now you can add killer for 0 - 20 extra DS situationally.

Why is DS still worse? Because of manyshot and manyshots DS penalty, which cuts down 58% of your doubleshot uptime.
So instead of 55% - 75% DS your actual average DS is only around 23% - 32%.
A 10k stars build doesn't really care about that, since there are only 15 seconds in a 120 second cycle where DS would even apply.
But whatever DS bonus you have would apply as some extra benefit in those 15 seconds.

Not using manyshot because of this doesn't help either. I don't have accurate numbers what the attacks per minute of a bow user with current alacrity bonuses is, but unless you have more than 80% DS, you should always be better off cycling manyshot.

Now if the DS penalty would be removed or cut to some degree, this would be a whole different talk, but as it stands currently, pure rangers are just far behind.

This is not any different on your own unique "rangerdanger" build.

Interesting analysis. I have been comparing MS/10kS vs DS for the last few days.

It seems to me a easy way to increase DPS in archers is to remove the DS penalty.
I don't suspect that will happen though.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This game is not that hard.
You do not need anywhere near top DPS to complete even the toughest quests.
(you may need a lot of healing though....)

This is especially true with a full party.

I actually seldom use Manyshot. I like to have it in reserve for when things do get tough. (I'm that way with SP and casters too...)



Then there is those math boys again.....
The crowd that still thinks that DDO is a bunch of guys attacking a non-moving wall that doesn't fight back.
(and also uses fuzzy math even then...)

I know what I see in game.
Yes, I do see some melee guys destroying armies of monsters very quickly.
I also see casters and archers who can do the same thing.

I see more casters.
Then comes the melee guys.
...but there are also a few ranged guys out there who can do it too.

But when things do go badly.... what I see are the rangers still standing saving the day. (also see some other classes doing it too, but this has tended to vary a lot over the years, with the various mods...)(Self Healers with good Ref saves are generally survivors...)

I also see the more Rangers in a group, the easier the quest goes.
This is extremely obvious with 3+ ranged specced toons in the group. There is a lot of synergy.

But Rangers can also adapt to the melee heavy groups as well.

That's why I like them, they can do both.
And they can self heal.
And they (can) have good Ref saves and Evasion.
(and they can have stealth skills too!)

Such a fun class for someone like me who enjoys a variety of playstyles.

[Basura_Grande]

It seems to me a easy way to increase DPS in archers is to remove the DS penalty.
I don't suspect that will happen though.

I'll bet you 10 tasty hams that when we see the new AA tree we'll have the DS penalty gone for manyshot and a +1 Crit multiplier in the 12 core.

Times are changing, but as they are now Eth is 100% correct.

[Grailhawk]

I'll bet you 10 tasty hams that when we see the new AA tree we'll have the DS penalty gone for manyshot and a +1 Crit multiplier in the 12 core.

Times are changing, but as they are now Eth is 100% correct.

Not sure if it matters but for build diversity it would be nice if monkcher couldn't get the DS penalty removed when after manyshot.

[Basura_Grande]

Not sure if it matters but for build diversity it would be nice if monkcher couldn't get the DS penalty removed when after manyshot.

Not needed, just leave it with 10k Stars, maybe make it longer.

It'll be possible for monkchers and pure 20s to have parity, and that's a wonderful thing.

[Kawai]

There are no myths. You could simply use math and see what's better.
You know why people don't run doubleshot archer builds? Because they don't produce as many attacks per second as a 10k star build. As simple as that.

On a 50+ Wisdom build with 10k stars you produce around about 1.2 extra arrows per shot during 10k stars.
10k stars has an uptime of 50%, which translates into what would roughly be 60% DS if you simply cycle it everytime it comes off cooldown.
In reality that's higher though, since you'll typically use it in situations where it matters and not hit the button every time you are off cooldown.

Now how much doubleshot can we have?
9 PL + 8 item + 5 shadow arrows + 20 capstone + 3 elf + 10 feat = 55 sustained
Now you can add killer for 0 - 20 extra DS situationally.

Why is DS still worse? Because of manyshot and manyshots DS penalty, which cuts down 58% of your doubleshot uptime.
So instead of 55% - 75% DS your actual average DS is only around 23% - 32%.
A 10k stars build doesn't really care about that, since there are only 15 seconds in a 120 second cycle where DS would even apply.
But whatever DS bonus you have would apply as some extra benefit in those 15 seconds.

Not using manyshot because of this doesn't help either. I don't have accurate numbers what the attacks per minute of a bow user with current alacrity bonuses is, but unless you have more than 80% DS, you should always be better off cycling manyshot.

Now if the DS penalty would be removed or cut to some degree, this would be a whole different talk, but as it stands currently, pure rangers are just far behind.

This is not any different on your own unique "rangerdanger" build.

1. my main is on 11th live there goob, & a Monchker. u r still wayyyy behind in preaching to a non-existent choir. srsly
2. Ranger Danger? lol that is no build, u goon.
3. i m sorry that u cannot see past ur own nose. It must hurt to comprehend that there is more to this game than a calculator.
4. there is no four, yet, just wanted to make u read some more. now... go make a video.