Holy Sword Nerf

[Infiltraitor]

I'm starting a new thread because the other thread got overly emotional. Coming from someone with quite a bit of paladin experience in EE.

Holy Sword: +1 Enhancement, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier, +1 Critical Threat Range.

Greatsword: 17-20/x2 (+20%)

can become 15-20/x3 (+60%)

Longbow: 19-20/x3 (+20%)

can become 17-20/x4 (+60%)

Longsword: 17-20/x2 (+20%)

can become 15-20/x3 (+60%)

Scimitar: 15-20/x2 (+30%)

can become 13-20/x3 (+80%)

Shortsword: 17-20/x2 (+20%)

can become 15-20/x3 (+60%)

Heavy Mace: 19-20/x2 (+10%)

can become 17-20/x3 (+40%)

Balizarde: 15-20/x3 (+60%)

can become 13-20/x4 (+120%)

160/120 = 1.33
180/130 = 1.38
140/110 = 1.27
220/160 = 1.38

As you can see, from this assortment of favored weapons, that holy sword can add between 27-38% extra dps. Thus far, indisputable.

#1 ---- 27-38% is far too high for a class feature.
#2 ---- 27-38% is far too variable as it completely eliminates many options, relegated into the dustbin of non-viable.
#3 ---- The debate over holy sword is actually a debate over Paladin viability due to its enhancements being terrible.
#4 ---- The devs don't play EE tanks.

We would not need holy sword if the enhancements were any good. This does not address the vast power differences between different favored weapons. Thus, the best solution requires a enhancement buff, feat buff, and holy sword nerf. This can be done perfectly with only a few changes.

NOTE: I am suggesting all 3 proposals as a combo to be used simultaneously rather than separately.


Proposal 1 - Nerf Holy Sword
Holy Sword - Grant +1 Critical Damage Multiplier

Proposal 2 - Buff Favored Weapon Feats
Beloved of the Lord of Blades ---- Increase the damage of glancing blow attacks by 10% with Great Swords.
Beloved of Silver Flame ---------- You gain 10% double shot with Long Bows.
Beloved of Sovereign Host ------- You gain BAB equal to your character level and +5 damage with Long swords.
Beloved of the Undying Court --- You gain 10% double strike with Scimitars.
Beloved of Volkoor --------------- You gain a +1 critical damage multiplier on rolls of 19-20 with Short Swords.
Beloved of Amaunator ----------- You gain a +10 enchantment bonus to your main weapon when it is a Heavy Maces.

Oops, this accidentally buffs the dead cleric class as well. Totally unintended. And also makes unusable weapons such as the heavy mace usable again.

Proposal 3 - Buff Defender Enhancements
Holy Bastion -------------- You gain 1 Hit Point and 1 Positive Spell Power per action point you spend in this tree. Each Sacred Defender core abilities grants +2 double strike.
Stalwart Toughness ------- You gain 1 Hit Point for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Stalwart Defender core abilities grant +2 damage.
Inciting Defense ----------- When in Sacred/Stalwart Defense, you gain +[10/20/30] Fortification and [10/20/30]% bonus to melee threat generation. *
Divine Righteousness ----- You gain temporary hit points equal to twice your charisma score and +100% bonus to melee threat generation. *

If someone is actually doing 300% as much dps as you such that you need 200% threat bonus, you shouldn't be in the raid.

Oops, this accidentally buffs the dead fighter class as well. Totally unintended.

Conclusion

By adopting the proposals I have outlined, we have killed 4 bird with 1 stone.

1) Nerfing Holy Sword
2) Readjusting the DPS gained across multiple levels and enhancements
3) Buffed dead cleric class and dead weapon types
4) Nerfed the abusive 11-20/x4 balizarde and 15-20/x5 heavy pick and 11-20/x4 ESOS builds.

You will not find a better solution than this.

[lifestaker]

*snip*
Beloved of Amaunator ----------- You gain a 10 enchantment bonus to your main weapon when it is a Heavy Maces.
*snip*

You do factor in the fact that would make a spell casting heavy mace an additional +30 spell power via equipment bonus? Though I am fine with that in some regards, it may be a bit to much for some people to get behind.

[Vellrad]

Limiting it to those junk is almost the same as removing spell from game.
The only good weapon in this list is longbow.

[Infiltraitor]

You do factor in the fact that would make a spell casting heavy mace an additional +30 spell power via equipment bonus? Though I am fine with that in some regards, it may be a bit to much for some people to get behind.

Yes, at least one of the options needed to be for casters.

Limiting it to those junk is almost the same as removing spell from game.
The only good weapon in this list is longbow.

That's the point. Other weapons do not need the help. (Khopesh, I'm looking at you.)

[Grailhawk]

If the goal is to maintain the current over all power level of all "passed" classes I agree that what needs to be done is nerf holy sword and buff enhancements however I think the simplest solution is to remove the crit extensions from holy sword and put them in the 12, 18 or 20 Cores of KotC while removing the 7d6 light damage and Good Aligned weapons and putting that in Holy Sword.

That said I think a massive nerf to all all "passed" classes so that they are not greater then the DPS of a Centered Kensei is a much better options and should have been the goal from the start but ...

[Enoach]

I disagree that Holy Sword should be changed before Improved Critical. Changing how Improved Critical fixes the issue of getting Double bonus from crit range enhancements and allows for future enhancements without fear of giving a build critical hits on every swing.

The problem is that IC does not work the same as a Weapon with Keen and it should.

Also fixing IC will allow Keen weapons to once again be an option. With the current system IC does not only allow flexibility within a weapon type it is twice as good when critical range enhancements are involved.

Once IC is working like Keen then review again and make adjustments from there.

[Qhualor]

curious as to why you would list plain weapons and than list a named a rapier.

[Qhualor]

I disagree that Holy Sword should be changed before Improved Critical. Changing how Improved Critical fixes the issue of getting Double bonus from crit range enhancements and allows for future enhancements without fear of giving a build critical hits on every swing.

The problem is that IC does not work the same as a Weapon with Keen and it should.

Also fixing IC will allow Keen weapons to once again be an option. With the current system IC does not only allow flexibility within a weapon type it is twice as good when critical range enhancements are involved.

Once IC is working like Keen then review again and make adjustments from there.

I would like to see the math on that.

[Infiltraitor]

curious as to why you would list plain weapons and than list a named a rapier.

There is theory and there is practice.

In theory, Holy Sword should apply its effects more or less equally across different weapon types.
In practice, Holy sword is used to buff already extremely powerful weapons into unparalleled heights of DPS. Balizarde, Epic Sword of Shadows, ect.

Both must be taken into account for balance sake.

[DevilYouKnow]

Really ? /Not signed. I am aware of the fact that almost everyone in your guild is playing a 14 pali/6 monk splash. Nice try tho.

[lifestaker]

Really ? /Not signed. I am aware of the fact that almost everyone in your guild is playing a 14 pali/6 monk splash. Nice try tho.

you can't point out facts on the forums. I think it is against the rules.

Even if said 'fact' was 100% true then would not this change impact them the same? Or are they all followers of the silver flame with long bows?

But, maybe I actually like these changes to some degree and am keeping an open mind. Or I am truly very ignorant and am trying to play devil's advocate to get some sort of sick pleasure out of running at the mouth (figuratively speaking) on the forums. The third options could be that I am just killing time due to being on TR timer and figured to read the forums while I wait for a clock.

You pick whatever option, but it does not change the fact that WHEN holy sword is changed, do you want to have a good argument against the change, or after talking about it with other players having some idea as to what would be better. Personally don't think saying to keep it will work anymore, and threats to leave the game hold little grounds.

Stay open minded and discuss points of interest. Include your feedback when it is relevant and stay open to change when it is unavoidable. Doing so will give you the option to influence the change rather then just being effected by it. The continued 'emotional' attacking of suggestions result in people giving up giving feedback, making them unwilling to add input if they may have something that would be good.

If you dislike these suggestions, that is fine, but include why.

If you have a suggestion to make a smoother change that people could get behind, let people know. You may even make something that the OP and other players request when the change comes into effect. It holds a bit of personal pride to some people to know that something is their idea.

Just know that the change nothing fact that people keep defending is not looking to be an option. You can fight that, but is the effort worth it when you could have potentially invested half the energy making something better?

Last bit of 'advice' I can offer is keep your personal opinions of other peoples motivations to yourself or at least present them politely. Nothing worse then rubbing someone wrong when you are trying to provide input. I know I do not do this from time to time, and have gotten feedback regarding it.

[Infiltraitor]

Really ? /Not signed. I am aware of the fact that almost everyone in your guild is playing a 14 pali/6 monk splash. Nice try tho.

Quite an accusation. I certainly don't play epic casual, so I have no idea where YOU would see me playing a 14 paladin /6 monk. LoL.


Priority for Holy Sword nerf is to remove the 11-20/x4 (+150%) Epic Sword of Shadows abuse, 11-20/x4 (+150%) Balizarde abuse.

Under the proposed changes, ESOS becomes 13-20/x4 (+120%) + 10% glancing damage. 8% nerf
Under the proposed changes, Balizarde becomes 13-20/x4 (+120%). 13% nerf
Under the proposed changes, Fellblade becomes 15-20/x3 (+60%) + 5 damage. 9% nerf
More importantly, Paladins do not get favored feats for free, it must be bought at level 12+.

The proposed changes/nerfs amounts to a 8-13% nerf and costs a feat.

While some people would argue that an 8-13% dps nerf and the loss of a feat is insufficient, your insinuation would have been insulting if it had only come from a place of comprehension.

[esojiul]

There is theory and there is practice.

In theory, Holy Sword should apply its effects more or less equally across different weapon types.
In practice, Holy sword is used to buff already extremely powerful weapons into unparalleled heights of DPS. Balizarde, Epic Sword of Shadows, ect.

Both must be taken into account for balance sake.

nerf only Infiltraitor toons

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Beloved of Sovereign Host ------- You gain BAB equal to your character level and +5 damage with Long swords.

Proposal 3 - Buff Defender Enhancements
Holy Bastion -------------- You gain 1 Hit Point and 1 Positive Spell Power per action point you spend in this tree. Each Sacred Defender core abilities grants +2 double strike.
Stalwart Toughness ------- You gain 1 Hit Point for each action point you spend in this tree. Each Stalwart Defender core abilities grant +2 damage.
Inciting Defense ----------- When in Sacred/Stalwart Defense, you gain +[10/20/30] Fortification and [10/20/30]% bonus to melee threat generation. *
Divine Righteousness ----- You gain temporary hit points equal to twice your charisma score and +100% bonus to melee threat generation. *

If someone is actually doing 300% as much dps as you such that you need 200% threat bonus, you shouldn't be in the raid.

Oops, this accidentally buffs the dead fighter class as well. Totally unintended.

paladins already have full bab.

fighter and paladin defender trees arent exactly the same, fighters dont have the divine righteousness ability. :/

[Infiltraitor]

nerf only Infiltraitor toons

I agree. His battle-cleric is pretty OP.

paladins already have full bab.

fighter and paladin defender trees arent exactly the same, fighters dont have the divine righteousness ability. :/

I'm trying to convince devs to indirectly add some cleric buffs, hence the focus on favored weapons. The last time I saw a cleric that WASN'T a tree was... back in 2013.

[mezzorco]

In one of the ranger threads, a dev stated a Holy Sword nerf is on their radar.

Holy Sword changes are pending. It's fine to bring up class vs. class debates, but right now we're not going to spend excessive worry over Paladin/Ranger multiclass builds. (This of course isn't the thread for discussing Holy Sword changes.)

[DevilYouKnow]

Quite an accusation. I certainly don't play epic casual, so I have no idea where YOU would see me playing a 14 paladin /6 monk. LoL.


Priority for Holy Sword nerf is to remove the 11-20/x4 (+150%) Epic Sword of Shadows abuse, 11-20/x4 (+150%) Balizarde abuse.

Under the proposed changes, ESOS becomes 13-20/x4 (+120%) + 10% glancing damage. 8% nerf
Under the proposed changes, Balizarde becomes 13-20/x4 (+120%). 13% nerf
Under the proposed changes, Fellblade becomes 15-20/x3 (+60%) + 5 damage. 9% nerf
More importantly, Paladins do not get favored feats for free, it must be bought at level 12+.

The proposed changes/nerfs amounts to a 8-13% nerf and costs a feat.

While some people would argue that an 8-13% dps nerf and the loss of a feat is insufficient, your insinuation would have been insulting if it had only come from a place of comprehension.

You are very funny, good sir.

[DevilYouKnow]

In one of the ranger threads, a dev stated a Holy Sword nerf is on their radar.

They did say the same about divine grace. They won't be nerfing it. And i won't be wasting my time any longer on this.

[Infiltraitor]

You are very funny, good sir.

Such logic you have.

A furyshotter stacks on

Adrenaline for 400% damage and autocrit.
Multishot for 300% as many arrows.
Arrow of Slaying for +250 base damage multiplied by crits and many shot.
Critical multiplier ×3 becomes ×4

Of all those, the problem you have is the 33% more crit damage from holy sword? Maybe the issue is the 400% stacking with the 300% stacking with the 250 base damage stacking with the autocrit and not the 33%. Maybe you have misallocated the blame just slightly.

[DevilYouKnow]

Such logic you have.

A furyshotter stacks on

Adrenaline for 400% damage and autocrit.
Multishot for 300% as many arrows.
Arrow of Slaying for +250 base damage multiplied by crits and many shot.
Critical multiplier ×3 becomes ×4

Of all those, the problem you have is the 33% more crit damage from holy sword? Maybe the issue is the 400% stacking with the 300% stacking with the 250 base damage stacking with the autocrit and not the 33%. Maybe you have misallocated the blame just slightly.

So why do you want holy sword nerfed again then ? You see what i mean ? Nice try though.