U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Feedback

[Cordovan]

Please give us your feedback on the Ranger Deepwood Stalker here!

[peng]

I like a lot of the changes to deepwood stalker, but if it's truly supposed to be a versatile tree that allows you to do well in both melee and ranged, why do so many abilities make you choose between the two? Several trees get a power boost that gives 30 melee and ranged power, but here you have to choose one. Why give me a melee *or* ranged attack (eg sniper shot/exposing strike, merciful shot/strike, head shot/strike, improved archer's focus/bow and sword) if this is the tree for those who want to do both?

Also, the other thread says that archer's focus will be changed to add 3 ranged power per stack, but the lamma release notes say it adds 2 rp per stack.

Also also, will improved weapon finesse work unarmed/with wraps?

[CThruTheEgo]

I like a lot of the changes to deepwood stalker, but if it's truly supposed to be a versatile tree that allows you to do well in both melee and ranged, why do so many abilities make you choose between the two? Several trees get a power boost that gives 30 melee and ranged power, but here you have to choose one. Why give me a melee *or* ranged attack (eg sniper shot/exposing strike, merciful shot/strike, head shot/strike, improved archer's focus/bow and sword) if this is the tree for those who want to do both?

I was wondering about this as well. I thought it odd that it was stated the tree was for those who wanted to do both melee and ranged, yet you had to choose between them every step of the way.

[Grailhawk]

I was wondering about this as well. I thought it odd that it was stated the tree was for those who wanted to do both melee and ranged, yet you had to choose between them every step of the way.

Agreed if this tree is supposed to be the "switch hitter" it should have both options at the same time not chose one or the other.

[Spekdah_NZ]

{quote}
Archer's Focus now adds 2 Ranger Power per stack instead of 2% damage to missile damage.
{quote}

Typo, ranged power, unless Ranger power is a new thing?! Wasn't it going to be 3 ranged power ?

[sjbb87]

Agreed if this tree is supposed to be the "switch hitter" it should have both options at the same time not chose one or the other.

Ranger already has two other trees
to focus.
You are not required to always take melee or ranged always in all dws skills. Can mix. That's the idea of this tree

[RD2play]

I feel the DWS does not support STR build rangers, maybe this is the intent?

•Tier Five:
•Head Shot/Strike: Ranged or Melee Attack. +5[W] attack that is automatically considered a critical threat, and blinds an opponent for six seconds on a failed Fortitude Saving Throw of 10/14/18 + Ranger Level + Tactical Feat bonuses + Dexterity Bonus. 12 second cooldown.

Maybe change to best of DEX/STR at least for strike ?

The rest looks like a great improvement from the first iteration tnx

[Qhualor]

not according to Steelstar

There have been a lot of similar statements and arguments in this thread, which has made it difficult to parse out the useful feedback. To clarify:

• We did not say that DWS is a "filler tree". Some players did, who do not seem to like Deepwood Stalker as a concept, but we did not.
• It is not true that it is "not intended to be a main tree" on our end.
• What Severlin did say is that the DPS of Deepwood Stalker is intentionally lower than the other two Ranger trees.
  
  • The biggest reason for this is that Deepwood Stalker's main focus is Versatility. You can gain abilities out of this tree that accentuate Melee, accentuate Ranged, or help you build a character that is proficient (if not top-of-the-line) with both.
  • Severlin did say that this is a good tree to stack on top of other, more DPS-focused trees. This is true, if not the primary function of the tree. If you are Melee Ranger who takes Tempest as their primary tree and want to get some extra Melee attacks or focus on Dexterity, taking some things from Deepwood Stalker can support that.
  
  
• In the end, we see a character that chooses to take Deepwood Stalker as their main tree being a character that wants to switch between Melee and Ranged depending on the situation; the changes we want to make to the tree are the changes that will support that, especially in T5 and later Cores. The results should be viable (we are doing internal DPS testing at the moment with the current round of changes), but not necessarily top-of-the-line in terms of DPS, because some of the damage is traded for versatility.

[Qhualor]

I feel the DWS does not support STR build rangers, maybe this is the intent?

yes

Ranger is definitely not obligated to be a DEX only class. Yes, there are some definite benefits to structuring a build around Dexterity when taking enhancements in this tree; it's both thematically and mechanically appropriate. However, stacking sources of Strength are still available in much higher and frequent quantities than Dexterity, especially at endgame, where a STR-focused character can get its STR MUCH higher than a DEX-based character can get their DEX. In short, DEX builds need the support in this tree more than STR builds do.

As for this specific tree, only the following actually applies to DEX specifically:
- You have access abilities that grant DEX directly (making up some of the distance between it and STR... at the cost of AP, which you wouldn't need to spend on a comparable STR build).
- You have access to using DEX for damage... again, at the cost of AP a STR build wouldn't need to spend
- One save DC in one ability

Beyond that, as far as this specific tree goes, you're just as well going STR as DEX. There are definite benefits to both, but DEX needs support in this tree if it's to be anywhere in the ballpark with STR builds.

[Requiro]

First some little bugs:

Release Notes typos or bugs compare to Lamannia
- No "+2/4/6 Physical Resistance" on Favored Defense
- Action Boost Melee and Ranged Boost are combine not separate
- Thrill of the Hunt get activated on 50% HP an all 3 ranks not 30/40/50
- Hunter's Mercy Release typo

Typo bugs in game:
- Thrill of the Hunt when activated, icon shows that was activated when enemy HP is 25% not 50%

And about a Tree:
This is still only "companion" Tree to Tempest or AA. There is nothing special, unique.
But as the "companion" tree to Tempest and AA it’s even more ok then was before.
With AA we can get 45 doublshoot, what is very, very nice option to AA Burst manyshoot damage.
And with Tempest we get some additional clickers, and melee buffs.

If you guys, what made this Tree be completive alone with other too you must improve unique abilities or mechanic, like Sneak Attacks, Animal Empathy, Favored Enemies, Switching fighting style ect.. Especially in T5, Core 12,18,20.

In other words: If we want more melee DPS we go the Tempest route. If we want Ranged DPS we go to AA. In both cases, we take DWS abilities (melee or ranged) for more power. Right now DWS don't give anything special.

IMO, abilities in shot (with explanation)

Good Improvements:
- Animal Empathy per Core - For Mark of the Hunted and poor Empathic Healing it's good move. But we should get Animal Empathy regeneration somewhere in that Tree (Core 18, 20 or T5)
- Tendon Cut's - +3[W] clicky is always nice.
- Improved Weapon Finesse - Great for Bow-Dex users. Almost no use for Tempest (Graceful Death)
- Survivalist - HP and PRR are always welcome.
- Strikes Like Lightning - Doublestrike and Doubleshoot are always welcome.
- Hunter's Mercy - More time to use it (before target is already dead...)
- Leg Shot - Add more power to already useful ability. Great.

Average Improvements:
- Horizon Shot - 20 melee and ranged power, won't push anyone to take this ability instead of 2 others. Core 20 need something special. Always in PBS range is situational (meaningless in close rooms, great in open space)
- Favored Defense - Combine together is good move, but ability is still week. IMO, 3rd rank should give you something more (like +5 PRR and MRR vs FE)
- Action Boost - Lower the cost to 1AP is good, but 2nd ability is week.
- Favored Damage - Same as Favored Defense. IMO, 3rd rank should give you something more (like +1 SA dice vs Favored Enemy, or more damage on Critical Hits)
- Head Shot/Strike - Add +5[W] and blind instead +500 dmg Vorpal look good in paper. And it’s very nice ability… But compare to other abilities, in other classes, and have in mind that this is T5 ability, it is only ok improvement. Should have on Vorpal something, like Hold monster effect. And as the T5 there shouldn’t be multiselector, if (of course) DWS want to be separate tree.

Poor Improvements:
- Sneak Attack (4th Core) - On level 12, Core ability should be more powerful. While improvement is overall ok, the starting point was terrible week. Thus now is below average ability. This is a good place to start giving something special to DWA Tree - like, Favored enemies extra SA dice, Daze on Vorpals to FE, Animal Empathy works on all Favored Enemies, ect.
- Mark of the Hunted - Same as above. But more. This special ability, Mark of the Hunted, is ok, one target debuff. But for Core 18 we need something more. Other reworked classes gets in this point, Critical threat, Critical damage, 100 HP + tree bonuses, Vorpals hits, Attack Speed... And what we get? Limit uses, one target debuff. Core 18 ability need more, much more to be competitive. Like, +1 Critical threat and damage vs Favored Enemies, Animal Empthy regeneration, Vorpals vs. FE, ect.
- Faster Sneaking - While reduce the cost is great, without any other buses to hide in tree, this ability is still below average (maybe another +1SA dice on 3rd rank?)
- Thrill of the Hunt - 3 dmg, for target below 50% hp is not what we want in T4 ability. Add +1die SA on rank 3 (still works only on target below 50% and in Sneak mode)
- Stalker Training - +10 melee and ranger power is not what you want to take in T5 ability. If you want melee/ranged power go Tempest/AA . Remove multiselector, combine bonuses together, and that improvement is great.

Not touched abilities:
- Empathic Healing – Week and poor ability. Remove it, combine with Survivalist (3rd Survivalist give you Regeneration Effect). Or Improve it (like Vigor instead of Lesser Vigor)
- Extra Favored Enemy – Add another rank (2AP), where we can choice another Favored Enemy (and Get another dmg bonuses)

[Steelstar]

First some little bugs:

Release Notes typos or bugs compare to Lamannia
- No "+2/4/6 Physical Resistance" on Favored Defense
- Action Boost Melee and Ranged Boost are combine not separate
- Thrill of the Hunt get activated on 50% HP an all 3 ranks not 30/40/50
- Hunter's Mercy Release typo

Typo bugs in game:
- Thrill of the Hunt when activated, icon shows that was activated when enemy HP is 25% not 50%

{quote}
Archer's Focus now adds 2 Ranger Power per stack instead of 2% damage to missile damage.
{quote}

Typo, ranged power, unless Ranger power is a new thing?! Wasn't it going to be 3 ranged power ?

(Popping in very quickly before I get to the office) :
Thanks for bringing those up.

• Notes are incorrect on Favored Defense, there isn't a PRR component
• AB:Melee and Ranged are combined in-game, should not be listed as separate
• Thrill of the Hunt now does activate at 50% for all 3 ranks.
• Archer's Focus is 3 Ranged Power, yes.

I'll see about getting the notes corrected (and take a look at those typos) once I'm in the office.

[Requiro]

(...)

• Archer's Focus is 3 Ranged Power, yes.

But in Lamannia I get only 2 Ranged Power per stack...

[Steelstar]

Another quick note, which I pointed out in the pre-Lama thread:We're definitely looking for Lamannia playtest feedback at this point. Theorycrafting is great (and we're still listening for that, but data based on test-driving the tree is especially important at this point in the process. So if you can, check it out on Lama and let us know if you did! Thanks!

[Steelstar]

But in Lamannia I get only 2 Ranged Power per stack...

It'll be 3 in the next build.

[barecm]

I personally did not see that much of a difference in dps. Pretty much the same numbers I saw on live on my pure ranger (str build) before I TRd back into a moncher; who blows both live and lamannia build pure rangers away in terms of dps.

Specific Feedback:

I tried the mercy shot (50%0 or lower which worked fine, but found the sneak attack requirement a bit of a challenge especially when running solo.
I found that I was able to spread my action points around a bit more, but did not find anything too compelling to spend on. Maybe we need to wait for AA to come about to support.
Overall DPS in this tree is still lacking. I did not see much if any increase. I would address heavy draw and maybe add something to that.
There still is the gaping hole of not having a crit ranged expansion in this tree (or any of the others). I am not sure why this is being ignored (stubbornness, pride, bias, etc) but until that is done, it will not be on par with other classes.

In general, if you are opposed to dps and would rather play a toon who is great at sneaking around and hiding in shadows waiting for the paladin and barbarian to kill everything for you, this is the tree for you.

[Requiro]

(...) Theorycrafting is great (...)

Then I inform : I try new enchantments on Lamannia. Don't have time for questing, but shoot a lots of Kobolts in Dojo, with different enhancement combination, That's why I change my opinion to my previous theoretical suggestion.

And I agree with barecm - there is no big difference.
That's why I suggest where you guys should looking improvements: If there is no more unique abilities, this tree will stay as always be - as filler to AA or Tempest.

Sneak Abilities, Animal Empathies special uses, Favored Enemies improvements, Both weapon style playable, New SP uses (new spells for example) - These are goal for the uniqueness, not more DPS. DPS we should have in Tempest (melee) and AA (ranged)

[barecm]

More specifically on Heavy Draw.:

1- This should be a feat like power attack.
2- It should work as advertised (like in conjunction with the enhancements in Leg Dreadnaught).
3- The Tier 5 should be a significant boost to the FEAT Heavy Draw.

Critical Range boost:

+1 should be in core (lvl 18) and vorpal 19-20 at core capstone.
or if that is too much to swallow (in terms of pride for the devs), then:
+1 crit in the capstone core lvl 20.

As mentioned more eloquently in other posts, every other martial class has a crit bonus EXCEPT ranger. This is so blatantly biased and yet no intelligent response from the devs (no, play what you want to play is not included as an intelligent response) has been given on why rangers cannot have this.

This class' dps needs help. Nothing from what I have tested on Lamannia indicates that any help is coming. Max 5-6 lvls of ranger is going to be the standard moving forward. Just like 2 lvls of paladins were not too long ago. So, if the goal is to bury rangers, mission accomplished.

[CeltEireson]

Another quick note, which I pointed out in the pre-Lama thread:We're definitely looking for Lamannia playtest feedback at this point. Theorycrafting is great (and we're still listening for that, but data based on test-driving the tree is especially important at this point in the process. So if you can, check it out on Lama and let us know if you did! Thanks!

Alas what with character copy being down cant get my ranger copied across.

[Delacroix21]

Another quick note, which I pointed out in the pre-Lama thread:We're definitely looking for Lamannia playtest feedback at this point. Theorycrafting is great (and we're still listening for that, but data based on test-driving the tree is especially important at this point in the process. So if you can, check it out on Lama and let us know if you did! Thanks!

I have tried both the tempest tree and deepwood tree as a pure ranger. My perception is the trees are ok, but very bland and boring. Its not like swashbuckler, mechanics, vanguards, etc. where the tree adds a truly unique new play style, it doesnt add anything new. There is nothing "sniper" in deepwood sniper, and tempest isnt very exciting either. Both need more flavor and deepwood especially needs some more active abilities. Its funny that the only "sniper " shot (arrow of slaying) is in AA and not deepwood. Also I don't like the cooldowns in tempest and find the dodge bonus off dex bonus extremely weak for a panic button, if should be dex score not bonus.

[blerkington]

I like a lot of the changes to deepwood stalker, but if it's truly supposed to be a versatile tree that allows you to do well in both melee and ranged, why do so many abilities make you choose between the two? ...

Hi,

This is one of the more serious problems with the tree as it is.

The other is how generally underpowered it is relative to pretty much every other melee and ranged class.

It provides very little in the way of offensive, defensive, self healing power AND utility.

I've already provided more detailed comments in the preview thread, as have many other people. Don't ignore those.

Thanks.