U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Feedback

[Wallwalker]

It is good you are using a sock, otherwise you would get to the ignore list.

I appreciated you post and thoughts, but I'm not a sock, and I don't appreciate being called one. You may not realize it, but by doing so your pronouncement can be used to diminish the validity of my posts, something I don't think you intended to do.

[BigErkyKid]

I appreciated you post and thoughts, but I'm not a sock, and I don't appreciate being called one. You may not realize it, but by doing so your pronouncement can be used to diminish the validity of my posts, something I don't think you intended to do.

My apologies then. I think your post is good, hence my lengthy reply.

[Wallwalker]

Thanks much appreciated.

[RD2play]

Does sneak attack with a bow scale with ranged power or is it still melee power ???

[mezzorco]

Does sneak attack with a bow scale with ranged power or is it still melee power ???

According to U25p2 release notes: Sneak Attack now scales with 150% Melee or Ranged Power.

I don't know if it always scales with the highest of the two, or if it scales with the one appropriate to your weapon.

[CeltEireson]

I have to say that I don't think the team is going to be in any rush to let us know what types of test they used. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but their conclusion on the Tempest so quickly followed by shutting down Lamma tells us a lot about what is really going on, and the lengths they are willing to go to preempt any contradicting voices.

It's disheartening to see them ignore, dismiss, and hide from a community that want's to help make the game better. A community that has grown and matured in regards to game-theory, balance, themes, and most importantly testing. The past year has seen just a explosion of solid testing and reporting with builders across the servers as people take each eagerly awaited new update and factor in the changes. Just two or three years ago you couldn't find much less get access to all the spreadsheets, videos, strike based algorithms, and 2nd party verification protocols that are so prevalent among serious builders today. Builder/tester Guilds exist on every server these days, and while some carefully guard their data for in house builds, others are happy to share, have testing nights, and even server-hop to help other noobs figure it out. Turbine can't be ignorant of this growing segment of the population, so it is so surprising when they make claims like the one about the Tempest that are so inaccurate and easily disproved, and entirely at odds with live lamma results.

Whilst I am certainly no fan of some changes the devs have made, certainly in the overpowered nature of some of the recent revamped classes such as paladin, effectively calling them liars and suggesting conspiracy theories is probably not going to get them to listen to you assuming that's what you were intending and not just throwing insults for insults sake. ****ing off players is most definitely not in their interest, certainly not long term, so its in their own best interests to get things right - anything else really doesn't make any business sense. Basically your tone is counterproductive, and familiar for that matter.

They may be waiting to see what the response is from player testing before making changes - rather than jumping in with massive boosts which caused the problem with both paladin etc in the past. They may also be working on things in the background to see what's viable - such as the changes to manyshot that they've mentioned, but haven't yet come to a decision - knowing how their audience tend to jump on things under consideration as 'promises'.

However, all that being said, it is difficult to comment on enhancement changes given that there are likely to be changes to manyshot in the future. And we also need some comment about whether the bow animation sequence will be redone in the near future in the way xbows were because that will have an impact on base attack speed and the effects of alacrity. Whether or not a critical range / damage change is absolutely required will very much depend on those questions.

[Grace_ana]

Whilst I am certainly no fan of some changes the devs have made, certainly in the overpowered nature of some of the recent revamped classes such as paladin, effectively calling them liars and suggesting conspiracy theories is probably not going to get them to listen to you assuming that's what you were intending and not just throwing insults for insults sake. ****ing off players is most definitely not in their interest, certainly not long term, so its in their own best interests to get things right - anything else really doesn't make any business sense. Basically your tone is counterproductive, and familiar for that matter.

They may be waiting to see what the response is from player testing before making changes - rather than jumping in with massive boosts which caused the problem with both paladin etc in the past. They may also be working on things in the background to see what's viable - such as the changes to manyshot that they've mentioned, but haven't yet come to a decision - knowing how their audience tend to jump on things under consideration as 'promises'.

However, all that being said, it is difficult to comment on enhancement changes given that there are likely to be changes to manyshot in the future. And we also need some comment about whether the bow animation sequence will be redone in the near future in the way xbows were because that will have an impact on base attack speed and the effects of alacrity. Whether or not a critical range / damage change is absolutely required will very much depend on those questions.

The problem with this, of course, is that we can't playtest when Lamannia isn't up.

[FestusHood]

However, all that being said, it is difficult to comment on enhancement changes given that there are likely to be changes to manyshot in the future. And we also need some comment about whether the bow animation sequence will be redone in the near future in the way xbows were because that will have an impact on base attack speed and the effects of alacrity. Whether or not a critical range / damage change is absolutely required will very much depend on those questions.

A reworking of the bow animation would be a huge factor, as it was with crossbows. Barring that, a change in how the doubleshot debuff works could allow doubleshot to make up for the lack of alacrity.

[Wallwalker]

Whilst I am certainly no fan of some changes the devs have made, certainly in the overpowered nature of some of the recent revamped classes such as paladin, effectively calling them liars and suggesting conspiracy theories is probably not going to get them to listen to you assuming that's what you were intending and not just throwing insults for insults sake. ****ing off players is most definitely not in their interest, certainly not long term, so its in their own best interests to get things right - anything else really doesn't make any business sense. Basically your tone is counterproductive, and familiar for that matter.

Please refrain from passively aggressively insulting me, and attempting to troll. If you don't agree fine, make you own posts, do not attempt to troll me because I don't post as you do, gives you no right to dismiss my posts and to try to diminish my validity.

They may be waiting to see what the response is from player testing before making changes - rather than jumping in with massive boosts which caused the problem with both paladin etc in the past. They may also be working on things in the background to see what's viable - such as the changes to manyshot that they've mentioned, but haven't yet come to a decision - knowing how their audience tend to jump on things under consideration as 'promises'.

Don't attempt to drag me into whatever past drama you are trying to hint at here, because I don't know what your driving at and frankly I'm above it and have not interest in engaging in it. Additionally what makes you think they are "waiting to see"? they already had a couple dozen pages of responses to the changes since Lamma went live and they ignored it entirely. And why would they be working on manyshot in the "background" when the ranger is the primary user of said feat, that makes no sense logically whatsoever.

However, all that being said, it is difficult to comment on enhancement changes given that there are likely to be changes to manyshot in the future. And we also need some comment about whether the bow animation sequence will be redone in the near future in the way xbows were because that will have an impact on base attack speed and the effects of alacrity. Whether or not a critical range / damage change is absolutely required will very much depend on those questions.

Well if you had given my posts a honest reading and evaluation you would have seen every single point that you finally express concern for was addressed clearly within my writing, next time why not address the content of a posters writing instead of rushing in to find a reason to object to his style, lecture him inappropriately, and attempt to attach him to whatever melodrama is still sticking in your craw alright?

Seriously, don't do this again because I will not put up with it. We should be talking about the class passes not critiquing each others styles and trolling people who are concerned about the same things we are. I believe I have made my position quite clear so in the interest of returning to the subjects at hand I will give you a clean slate from me personally, start any nonsense again and I will be out of patience, and you would be exposing yourself as a poster more interested in creating drama and pecking orders then this game's future.

Peace.

[Wallwalker]

A reworking of the bow animation would be a huge factor, as it was with crossbows. Barring that, a change in how the doubleshot debuff works could allow doubleshot to make up for the lack of alacrity.

Agreed a sensible resolution to the doublshot debuff could finally bring some value to the mounds of Double they are throwing around.

Additionally can I say how heartbreaking it is to see this pass not being combine with a animation revamp? we saw the developers consider, undertake, and than tweak a animation revamp on the xbows. They were able to go live with that and the process only started after the initial Mech proposals, so we have ample evidence that it could be done in concert with this pass.

Turbine not dealing with Bow animation and the Manyshot issue prior to, or at least during this ranger pass is negligent, and deceptive.

Do right by your players Steelstar, Varg, don't treat up like idiots who don't remember what happened just months ago, sort out our range classes, and the major features that are plaguing them, Manyshot, doubleshot debuff, and Bow animation.

We know that you can, so get to it.

[CeltEireson]

A reworking of the bow animation would be a huge factor, as it was with crossbows. Barring that, a change in how the doubleshot debuff works could allow doubleshot to make up for the lack of alacrity.

Oddly enough given the high level of doubleshot now attainable (assuming they don't change things) if you max out doubleshot you'll actually lose dps overall by using manyshot given the length of the manyshot debuff currently.

[Requiro]

Thanks for good feedback. Let's start:

That's a fair point! After internal discussion, we've changed most of the Ranged/Melee multiselectors to just grant you both versions. Here's a list of what's changed on our end since this Lama build opened:

• Hunter's Mercy is now a single enhancement that grants both Merciful Shot (the Ranged version) and Merciful Strike (the Melee version). Perfect!
• Head Shots is now a single enhancement that grants both Head Shot (the Ranged version) and Head Strike (the Melee version). Great, but still not Perfect
• "With Bow and Blade" has been rolled into Improved Archer's Focus, granting the passive +10 Melee Power and +10 Ranged Power. Perfect!
• Mark of the Hunted now passively grants 10% Fortification Bypass and +2 Damage when attacking Favored Enemies. Average. Good start, but Core 18 ability need more to be atractive.
• Horizon Shot now passively grants 10% Fortification Bypass and a total of +3 Sneak Attack Dice (previously 1). Good improvement, but as Core 20 it’s need a little more love.

(...)As Vargouille said in the Tempest thread(...)

I don't want to be mean, but I could be, because English is not my native language, but... Could you talk to Vargouille and convince him to be less stubborn in (probably) his project - Tempest improvement? He dismiss most of the players feedback…

That's just as applicable to Deepwood Stalker, pending the above changes. We hope so!

Consider improvements to Core 18 and Core 20.
Core 18 - Slow Animal Empathy regeneration (For Mark of the Hunted be more attractive ability then boss-only)
Core 20 - Half or remove Manyshoot doubleshoot penalty timer (For truly 20 Level Ranger Versatility)

And please Improve that poor Healing Empathy ability.

[Fecerak]

I feel like having DWS having the same dps as a swashbuckler isn't really good enough, considering the utility in both classes outside of just pure dps. A DWS ranger has manyshot, some mediocre ranger spells and that is about it.

Swashbuckler on the other hand has:
- Bard spells, including haste, displacement and FoM
- Inspire Courage
- Fascinate
- A lot more movement speed
- Better self-healing
- Coup de Grace

And there are probably a lot more that I can't think of right now. I'm not necessarily asking for the DWS to get a lot more dps, but I feel like you at least should get similar levels of utility given similar levels of dps. Give them some utility related abilities that actually are strong enough to reward you for taking the tree instead of just being a worse tempest with some minor extra utility. And why is a swashbuckling bard better at assassinating targets than the deepwood stalker anyways?

[sjbb87]

I feel like having DWS having the same dps as a swashbuckler isn't really good enough, considering the utility in both classes outside of just pure dps. A DWS ranger has manyshot, some mediocre ranger spells and that is about it.

Swashbuckler on the other hand has:
- Bard spells, including haste, displacement and FoM
- Inspire Courage
- Fascinate
- A lot more movement speed
- Better self-healing
- Coup de Grace

And there are probably a lot more that I can't think of right now. I'm not necessarily asking for the DWS to get a lot more dps, but I feel like you at least should get similar levels of utility given similar levels of dps. Give them some utility related abilities that actually are strong enough to reward you for taking the tree instead of just being a worse tempest with some minor extra utility. And why is a swashbuckling bard better at assassinating targets than the deepwood stalker anyways?

Fom serious??
Name: Freedom of Movement
School: Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, FvS 4, Rgr 4


It is possible to get 90 Positive Spell Power
its a good boost

This tree must be versatile, remember you do not need to spend all ap points in dws,
For me this tree just missing movement speed.


I hope this tree get movement speed

[kalma360]

is the dex to dmg with a throwe glitched? fount out it works fine with a bow but not my shuri, i take the dex to dmg out of the halfling and it works fine but why not out of deepwood?

[purplebelly]

i'm mildly surprised no one has already brought up this point but...
i'm surprised there is no "measure-the-foe-look-alike" included in this tree
i mean assassins and deepwood "stalkers" are supposed to be the most stealthy trees so why is one given such a HUGE incentive to sneak around and the other not so much?


also movement might be nice but i feel that's more a tempest thing so i don't mind

[Steelstar]

• Yes, Improved Weapon Finesse has been fixed internally for Thrown weapons.
• The Level 12 Core (previously "Sneak Attack", now "Advanced Sneak Attack") now reads as follows:
  
  • +1 Sneak Attack Die
  • +10 Positive Spell Power
  • You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with all weapons. This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed.
    
    • (This change does remove the +10 Melee/Ranged Power that's in this Core on Lamannia)
  
  
• The Melee and Ranged Power in Improved Archer's Focus has been reduced from +10 to +5.

[mezzorco]

• Yes, Improved Weapon Finesse has been fixed internally for Thrown weapons.
• The Level 12 Core (previously "Sneak Attack", now "Advanced Sneak Attack") now reads as follows:
  
  • +1 Sneak Attack Die
  • +10 Positive Spell Power
  • You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with all weapons. This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed.
    
    • (This change does remove the +10 Melee/Ranged Power that's in this Core on Lamannia)
  
  
• The Melee and Ranged Power in Improved Archer's Focus has been reduced from +10 to +5.

So, basically, melee rangers will have +1 range and +1 multiplier (considering tempest changes), while ranged rangers will have +1 range.
I guess AA will be the key to success then

EDIT: +1 range to ranged rangers!

[jakeelala]

• Yes, Improved Weapon Finesse has been fixed internally for Thrown weapons.
• The Level 12 Core (previously "Sneak Attack", now "Advanced Sneak Attack") now reads as follows:
  
  • +1 Sneak Attack Die
  • +10 Positive Spell Power
  • You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with all weapons. This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed.
    
    • (This change does remove the +10 Melee/Ranged Power that's in this Core on Lamannia)
  
  
• The Melee and Ranged Power in Improved Archer's Focus has been reduced from +10 to +5.

So previously, the template for all throwers was:

Halfling (for crit threat)
and 3 Monk.

While this is restrictive, it's far less restrictive than what this change will do which will be:
12 Ranger
3 Monk
Human

The reason why is Double Action Boost to Damage from Human. It's the highest possible thrower DPS with these changes.

While I am ALL for making Throwers more powerful, I really wish there was a way to not make it so there was just really only one best thrower build. On live now, if you take 3 monk levels and a Halfling, you can still play around with the other 17 levels. This will no longer be true with u28.

This is a larger problem with throwers, whereby there is absolutely no way to build a competent thrower that doesn't use Shuriken and stacking Shuriken Expertise with Advanced Ninja Training.

We really need a Throwing Expertise feat, and we need fixed Critical Multipliers on Throwers. Please.

[btolson]

• Yes, Improved Weapon Finesse has been fixed internally for Thrown weapons.
• The Level 12 Core (previously "Sneak Attack", now "Advanced Sneak Attack") now reads as follows:
  
  • +1 Sneak Attack Die
  • +10 Positive Spell Power
  • You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with all weapons. This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed.
    
    • (This change does remove the +10 Melee/Ranged Power that's in this Core on Lamannia)
  
  
• The Melee and Ranged Power in Improved Archer's Focus has been reduced from +10 to +5.

Nifty. 12 levels of Ranger becomes a new Holy Sword, at least for TWFing. This should shake up the landscape quite a bit, and make things very interesting. Looking forward to the variety that comes from this.