U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[Axeyu]

Darn forums erased my answer. Wow. Ok here we go again, less detailed because I lost patience:

Warchanter (cap, howl of north, chant of power)
Harper (13AP - KTA, 6MP, 1 Int)
Human (3AP, STR+1)
Swash (rest)

Stats (I followed your choices so no short term buffs)

STR: 66 (18 initial + 7 level ups + 6 tome + 4 insight + 11 item + 1 exceptional +4 war chanter (capstone + enhancement) + 4 skaldic + 2 rage +2 inspire excellence + 2 profane + 2 destiny + 2 ship+ 1 human; 18+7+6+4+11+1+4+4+2+2+2+2+2+1)
INT: 44 (use 1 harper, start 15, I won't do break down but hopefully not crazy enough for you to doubt it)

Using a hand axe: 15-20/x3 and 19-20/x7.
Twist in reign.

Changes to keep in mind:

• +8 damage KTA
• +10 stat damage
• +5 music damage
• +2 crit multiplier 19-20
• +1 capstone music damage from inspire heroics (4 base +5 war chanter buff=9) you had 8 before.
• +6% damage from chant

I think this should be substantial improvement from the build you posted, but who knows I haven't made the comparison. By all means modify any glaring mistakes.

Thank you. Feel free to go through the other builds aswell.
I will update the calc in the evening.

[mezzorco]

The +1 crit multi favors weapons with greater crit range, thus helping closing the gap between STR and DEX based dps.
In what follows LD is assumed, but I think there are better options for light weapons.

---Assuming IC, OC, Devastating critical and Headman's Chop/Pulverizer---

Battle axe: 19-20/x6 (50%) ---> 19-20/x7 (60%)

Warhammer: 17-18/x3, 19-20/x5 (60%) ---> 17-18/x4, 19-20/x6 (80%)

Khopesh: 17-18/x3, 19-20/x5 (60%) ---> 17-18/x4, 19-20/x6 (80%)

Kukri / scimitar / rapier: 15-18/x2, 19-20/x4 (50%) ---> 15-18/x3, 19-20/x5 (80%)


Mornh: 15-18/x3, 19-20/x5 (80%) ---> 15-18/x4, 19-20/x6 (110%)

Mutineer's Blade / Drow Rapier: 13-18/x2, 19-20/x4 (60%) ---> 13-18/x3, 19-20/x5 (100%)

[Eth]

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.

Does avatar of nature count as dual wielding for that matter?

[Thar]

If that happens, then i had suggest removing the +10% offhand chance and + 25 % offhand doublestrike from tempest core 18/20 otherwise rangers will be strictly better in regards to dps, which should not be the goal. And don't forget that making 12 ranger (tempest) 5 barbarian (ravager) 3 x with pulverizer from dreadnought will probably be better than the current holy sword as well. I don' t see a reason for nerfing this at all now.

This was referencing the ops comment about the fore mentioned pally nerf to holy sword which is ridiculous after 9 years of irrelevance, 2 nerfs and a pass focused on two trees that didn't touch the one most needed for tanking.

[Thar]

If that happens, then i had suggest removing the +10% offhand chance and + 25 % offhand doublestrike from tempest core 18/20 otherwise rangers will be strictly better in regards to dps, which should not be the goal. And don't forget that making 12 ranger (tempest) 5 barbarian (ravager) 3 x with pulverizer from dreadnought will probably be better than the current holy sword as well. I don' t see a reason for nerfing this at all now.

There was no reason to nerf holy sword before with the changes to barbarian. and yes your barbarian would be better than pally depending on the weapon as they get the 2x damage crit.

[Thar]

I agree with this, Tempest needed something other flavor-wise then bigger crits imo.

And doesn't anyone remember crit rage being removed in the 2009 enhancement pass because critical enhancements was "too powerful"?

Does anyone remember the batman builds? platemail + evasion is too powerful. 2014 - lets add MRR so people in plate can take significantly less spell damage. ie enough to not care or self heal. (my cleric is bored now)

The crits were needed or some signifcantly large boost in attack speed/offhand doublestrike, etc. Since you can't double stack crits, this makes multiclassing less of a concern for being exploiting any other alternative since that would stack with another classes crit mod.

[Grailhawk]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

How much sustainable DPS is too much DPS for a Ranger in your view?

I'm starting to think that the previous proposal with +10 Melee Power was pushing the limit and +1 increase to crit multiplier is strictly better then +10 MP (assuming Scimitars or Khopesh)

Base damage = x (every thing involved in base +w, +dmg, +die, every thing)

Khopesh with +10 Melee Power
Crit power = 1.35 (0.75 + 0.2(3) = 1.35 0.75 = 75% non crits 0.2 = 20% crits at x3 damage) 
Melee Power = (100+m+10)/100 = 1.1 + 0.01m 
1.35x(1.1 + 0.01m)
1.485x + 0.0135m 

Scimitar with +10 Melee Power 
Scimitar crit power = 1.25 
Melee power = = 1.1 + m/100 
1.25x(1.1 + 0.01m)
1.375x + 0.0125mx 

New Ranger (+1 Crit multiplier)
Scimitar or Khopesh crit power = 1.55
Melee Power = 1 + 0.01m 
1.55x(1 + 0.01m)
1.55x + 0.0155mx 

1.55 > 1.485 > 1.375 
0.0155 > 0.0135 > 0.0125 

So a +1 crit multiplier always is better then +10 mp no matter how much mp you have.

[Loromir]

Some changes we're expecting to work on soon:

• We're probably going to put in some Competence bonus to Critical weapon profiles. This is going to require removing quite a bit of power that is currently in the tree. A lot of melee power is likely to be removed.
• 1KC: A Thousand Cuts is probably going to get an multiple-choice option which is completely passive and mathematically inferior. It will be the case that we expect maximum DPS to only be achieved with the most interactive gameplay version of 1KC, but players who simply don't prefer that gameplay style have an option which doesn't give up all of that DPS.

No one "advertised" this as anything other than what it is - 5% Incorporeality. That said, let's examine why the following claim in red is mathematically incorrect:



Taking as a given this math is correct: If you got attacked 100 times for 1 damage each time, you take 36 damage without Whirlwind. With it, you take 34 damage.

36/34 => 1.058 ... => about ~5-6% less damage than you would otherwise take.

The TOTAL chance to be hit is irrelevant to whether or not this is reducing your chance to be hit or damage taken by 5%.

As an extreme learning example: If you (somehow) have 98% dodge, getting 1% more dodge would reduce (physical attack) damage by 50% of what it was previously. You are still only getting 1% dodge. You are also taking half the damage you used to. You can apply different words and interpretations here, but those facts remain true.

Yes, you can say you go from a total hit chance of 36% to 34%. That doesn't mean your miss chance is only changed by 2% by this ability, because this ability is independent of all sources except other forms of Incorporeality -- which has increasing returns, like Dodge. 5% Incorp is worth more the more Incorp you already have.

So, yes. It's true that 5% is probably not really 5%. It's probably bigger than 5%.




This is similar to what we saw in Legendary Dreadnought. We're happy to hear what you were getting with a Swashbuckler in Dreadnought.

That said, Dreadnought was certainly not the best Tempest DPS in our tests.


We are happy to hear your data and play experiences on this.



Players tested on Lamannia. Many players got some numbers pretty close to what we saw for similar builds and situations.

The best way for us to get wider, deeper testing data is to not restrict or constrain how players test and instead use any and all methods players come up with in addition to the methods we test with. Calling out one or a few methods is contrary to the goal of getting the right answer.


Again, we welcome hearing your data and testing methods.

I'm sorry you feel that there's no way we got the results we got. We'd love to see the methods you used to get the results you got.

Additionally: Convincing players we're right is less important than being right. It's not entirely unimportant, but secondary. I'm not sure why you think we're trying to convince you. We're not. We're trying only to convince ourselves balance is where it should be.



You seem to believe there was a change of goals where there were not any goals. We don't really have these wider goals inherent to "crit expansion" where you are pointing at them. Your question cannot be answered because it has a faulty premise.

Boosting Critical hits is a tool. The goal is class balance. Critical expansion is one tool amongst many that we can use. We are neither inherently for nor against altering chances or damage of physical critical hits.


If necessary for balance we will change anything. That's why.


It's already been done. We are currently planning to undo that balancing work for other reasons, mostly related to Holy Sword. Those discussions aren't fully ready.

We're happy to see and quite possibly try to replicate your extensive, rigorous testing. Perhaps I've missed it. I couldn't find it in this post. We've seen other hard-data testing results that agrees with neither you nor with us, and those posts are great.


Critical expansion is neither too strong nor too weak. In a vacuum, that's meaningless. There is no reason to think it is necessary, nor to think it unnecessary.

Master's Blitz provides a lot of melee power. Some players have suggested the current implementation is overpowered and/or that other Destinies should provide equal melee power. Yet, somehow Legendary Dreadnought is not consistently the highest DPS tree (including when testing Ranger). If anyone has testing showing otherwise, we want to hear the details - for Master's Blitz & Melee power, or for Ranger.

There is no reason a tool used in one place must be used in every other place. Melee Power, like Critical profile, is just another tool. It is neither inherently good nor bad.


Agreed.


We appreciate the idea, and have had discussed boosting Dexterity more in Tempest, but ultimately we decided we'd rather not go far down that path (and instead focused on rewarding you a bit more for having high Dexterity already).

Frankly Varg...I think you guys should do what you think is best and not give us any preview. Stop responding to these forums. Stop trying to appease people. It is clear than no matter what direction you go, there are going to be people who are unhappy.

You made changes to the tree to add power and make Tempest more viable and people complained. You adjusted mid Update to completely re-work with expanded crit profile, and still people complain.

I don't know which philosophy is best. I haven't tested. I don't get into the math that much. More often than not, I take what you guys give us and roll with it. If I like it, I play it. If I don't like it...I move on to some other build. I think you guys should just go silent on the forums. Less time trying to assuage (How do you like that big word ) the masses, and more time coding and developing. Win win for you guys and for us.

I'm sorry you guys are always put on the defensive but rarely praised for giving us the best MMO in this industry (Warts and all).

[Vargouille]

Just want to point out, that if 1k is going to see a 1/3 reduction in power (which is fine IMO), then it should also see a 1/3 reduction in cost.

We think it's still easily worth the AP spent on it.

As I say at work, QA approves

KookieKobold has a stamp which says, QA Approved.

... I have another stamp which declares, By Design.



^{(No, we don't actually use paper much, but that's not the point!)}

[Axeyu]

I think this should be substantial improvement from the build you posted, but who knows I haven't made the comparison. By all means modify any glaring mistakes.

It most certainly was!

Updated calc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...eT9gENrPV-b2l4

New bard and updated tempest builds.

20 Ranger 100%
15 Paladin/5 Ranger 111%
20 paladin 100%
20 Bard 103%
20 Paladin Vg/Sd 93%
20 Barbarian 118%

Feel free to post alternative or optimized builds!

[Basura_Grande]

It most certianly was!

Updated calc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...eT9gENrPV-b2l4

New bard and updated tempest builds.

20 Ranger 100%
15 Paladin/5 Ranger 111%
20 paladin 100%
20 Bard 103%
20 Paladin Vg/Sd 93%
20 Barbarian 118%


Feel free to post alternative or optimized builds!

What were your actual DPS numbers, we had pure tempests breaking 7000 DPS on the kobolds in Lamania

[Axeyu]

What were your actual DPS numbers, we had pure tempests breaking 7000 DPS on the kobolds in Lamania

In the calc, about 3000. It's an average over 10 minutes.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

KookieKobold has a stamp which says, QA Approved.

... I have another stamp which declares, By Design.



^{(No, we don't actually use paper much, but that's not the point!)}

So you stamp each other's foreheads?

[BigErkyKid]

It most certainly was!

Updated calc:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...eT9gENrPV-b2l4

New bard and updated tempest builds.

20 Ranger 100%
15 Paladin/5 Ranger 111%
20 paladin 100%
20 Bard 103%
20 Paladin Vg/Sd 93%
20 Barbarian 118%

Feel free to post alternative or optimized builds!

Just a reminder. I think you forgot 6mp from harper. It also says it keeps exploit weakness and the Crit profile is still wrong (should be +4 on 19-20). Finally I don't see reign added to vorpal effects (remember vorpal is 19-20 on that build).

In any case forgive me if you added it but just not to the presentation sheet and it's somehow in the background.

Now I'd like to know what numbers the devs run to claim ranger is so far ahead of bard.

[Axeyu]

Just a reminder. I think you forgot 6mp from harper. It also says it keeps exploit weakness and the Crit profile is still wrong (should be +4 on 19-20). Finally I don't see reign added to vorpal effects (remember vorpal is 19-20 on that build).

In any case forgive me if you added it but just not to the presentation sheet and it's somehow in the background.

Now I'd like to know what numbers the devs run to claim ranger is so far ahead of bard.

Oh, so you're not going for T5 in SB?

Reign is in, I added it as average damage per hit (45 for the bard and 15 for the rest). The vorpal rows are not working atm, it's very low priority.

Thank you for the patience and looking over the numbers.

[BigErkyKid]

Oh, so you're not going for T5 in SB?

Reign is in, I added it as average damage per hit (45 for the bard and 15 for the rest). The vorpal rows are not working atm, it's very low priority.

Thank you for the patience and looking over the numbers.

It's a tough one because you cannot have the capstone and Kta and exploit weakness. I'd try both to be frank. Capstone and not exploit weakness but howl and chant of power and Kta // and no capstone and exploit weakness and Kta. Should be easy to modify in your spreadsheet I think.

Of course I love playing with builds and all the effort is truly on your side. Thanks for sharing it!

[Basura_Grande]

In the calc, about 3000. It's an average over 10 minutes.

We were seeing much high in the shorter bursts of the 100k Kobold.

Varg . . . any chance we can get a 1 million HP kobold?

[Vargouille]

Varg . . . any chance we can get a 1 million HP kobold?

It may be quite some time, but we've had some early discussions about such things. (The recent kobolds on Lamannia were a haphazard introduction to something we're still fleshing out and investigating.)

1 million HP is interesting, so are seeing how fast you can kill 5-10 100,000 (since group/AoE DPS is a pretty big deal in a lot of real gameplay, if you are going for overall DPS/quest times).

[Grailhawk]

1 million HP is interesting, so are seeing how fast you can kill 5-10 100,000 (since group/AoE DPS is a pretty big deal in a lot of real gameplay, if you are going for overall DPS/quest times).

IMO a quest with 0 exp with the kobold having there HP scale by x10 for each difficulty from casual to epic elite start at 100 Heroic Casual (good for level 1 tests)
1,000 HN
10,000 HH
100,000 HE
1,000,000 Epic Casual
10,000,000 EN
100,000,000 EH
1,000,000,000 Epic Elite

that would future prof the quest hopefuly and give lots of good data points. As you could take groups into EE and see how the group preforms as a whole.

[Axeyu]

It's a tough one because you cannot have the capstone and Kta and exploit weakness. I'd try both to be frank. Capstone and not exploit weakness but howl and chant of power and Kta // and no capstone and exploit weakness and Kta. Should be easy to modify in your spreadsheet I think.

Of course I love playing with builds and all the effort is truly on your side. Thanks for sharing it!

If you want the calc: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tw4m6hd8vi...date%203.7.ods
Works best with open office. That version is not updated with the bard build or the latest tempest changes.