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Sarlona: Seikojin, Toy
Are we taking into account manyshot every 2 minutes in these dps calcs?
Most people don't. And when I did testing with manyshot, it helped a bit, but if you build for melee, your ranged suffers. Except for Holy sword users. Because holy sword for some reason was built to affect attacks, not just melee (not just swords for that matter). So you can take something with a x4 crit, get it to x5, increase the range a couple of ways, and manyshot with some damage stacks twisted and feated in and make dps go up considerably. I think dps tests (100k dummies that reported time to death from getting hit) were yelling 15 seconds when someone 14/6 pali ranger went twf, zeal, haste, 1000 cuts, haste, manyshot.
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Sarlona: Seikojin, Toy
divided by 4
Doublestrike/melee power 45/4 = "11,25 " .
Cooldown: 90/4= 22,5 seconds
buff time= 15 x 4= 60 seconds
I used a multiplier 4 to put the buff to last one minute
Then we have a recharge time of 22.5 on the 2nd
I removed this recharge time in exchange for 1.25 doublestrike / melee power, and the 5 [w]
I took an average in the buff last a minute, and cooldown was not as long and turned into a passive.
The dps would be almost the same, but better distributed.
Some changes we're expecting to work on soon:
- We're probably going to put in some Competence bonus to Critical weapon profiles. This is going to require removing quite a bit of power that is currently in the tree. A lot of melee power is likely to be removed.
- 1KC: A Thousand Cuts is probably going to get an multiple-choice option which is completely passive and mathematically inferior. It will be the case that we expect maximum DPS to only be achieved with the most interactive gameplay version of 1KC, but players who simply don't prefer that gameplay style have an option which doesn't give up all of that DPS.
No one "advertised" this as anything other than what it is - 5% Incorporeality. That said, let's examine why the following claim in red is mathematically incorrect:
Taking as a given this math is correct: If you got attacked 100 times for 1 damage each time, you take 36 damage without Whirlwind. With it, you take 34 damage.Assuming:
- Running Displacement through DM, Scroll or Item clicky
- Only has enough AC to be missed when the mob rolls a 1
- Has a standing 15% Dodge
- Has a 10% Incorporeal item equipped
- = 1 *0.5 *0.95 * 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.36 or 36% chance to be hit per attack directed at the Ranger
- = 1 *0.5 *0.95 * 0.85 * 0.85 = 0.34 or 34% chance to be hit.
In this a-typical example its worth 2%, or 2 attacks out of 100 directed at the Ranger will now miss. A 10% Bonus would make a more significant contribution to defense.
36/34 => 1.058 ... => about ~5-6% less damage than you would otherwise take.
The TOTAL chance to be hit is irrelevant to whether or not this is reducing your chance to be hit or damage taken by 5%.
As an extreme learning example: If you (somehow) have 98% dodge, getting 1% more dodge would reduce (physical attack) damage by 50% of what it was previously. You are still only getting 1% dodge. You are also taking half the damage you used to. You can apply different words and interpretations here, but those facts remain true.
Yes, you can say you go from a total hit chance of 36% to 34%. That doesn't mean your miss chance is only changed by 2% by this ability, because this ability is independent of all sources except other forms of Incorporeality -- which has increasing returns, like Dodge. 5% Incorp is worth more the more Incorp you already have.
So, yes. It's true that 5% is probably not really 5%. It's probably bigger than 5%.
Overall DPS:This is similar to what we saw in Legendary Dreadnought. We're happy to hear what you were getting with a Swashbuckler in Dreadnought.Waiting on Lammaland to come back up again, but I will find it interesting to test these changes out against some real EE questing instead of the 30 minutes of Kobold Boss bashing I got to do. I was polling times of around 28-30s a Kobold Boss, running a STR-based Khopesh Tempest running in Legendary Dreadnought.
That said, Dreadnought was certainly not the best Tempest DPS in our tests.
We are happy to hear your data and play experiences on this.
Players tested on Lamannia. Many players got some numbers pretty close to what we saw for similar builds and situations.So please stop using it, or make the data and testing procedures you are using available to the community, it would go a ways towards restoring our trust, and would help you get much wider, deeper, testing data and benchmarks.
The best way for us to get wider, deeper testing data is to not restrict or constrain how players test and instead use any and all methods players come up with in addition to the methods we test with. Calling out one or a few methods is contrary to the goal of getting the right answer.
Again, we welcome hearing your data and testing methods.No. There is absolutely no way that you are getting that result with any kind of empirical repeated testing regimens, none. I'm not sure why you are trying to convince us of that instead of actually making the few changes to make it happen, but as the changes stand it is not possible, in any proper testing, done in a decent sample size. No chance.
I'm sorry you feel that there's no way we got the results we got. We'd love to see the methods you used to get the results you got.
Additionally: Convincing players we're right is less important than being right. It's not entirely unimportant, but secondary. I'm not sure why you think we're trying to convince you. We're not. We're trying only to convince ourselves balance is where it should be.
You seem to believe there was a change of goals where there were not any goals. We don't really have these wider goals inherent to "crit expansion" where you are pointing at them. Your question cannot be answered because it has a faulty premise.This was responding to a crit expansion suggestion. Please finally take the time to explain why after 18 months of providing crit expansions to each class with each balancing pass you have decided the it would now "unbalance them". Please be aware that I am on the fence about crit expansion personally, I can live with or without it. But the past 18 months have established a pattern and power curve for class passes, and if you are not going to provide that to rangers it certainly deserves the upfront and honest explanation from Turbine to the players as to why you are changing tact mid-stream.
Boosting Critical hits is a tool. The goal is class balance. Critical expansion is one tool amongst many that we can use. We are neither inherently for nor against altering chances or damage of physical critical hits.
If necessary for balance we will change anything. That's why.Are you going to remove the crit expansions from the classes that got them during the passes? if so why? if not why?
It's already been done. We are currently planning to undo that balancing work for other reasons, mostly related to Holy Sword. Those discussions aren't fully ready.How are you going to compensate the ranger class if you don't give it a crit buff? what you have proposed so far has been shown to be inadequate in testing, extensive rigorous testing.
We're happy to see and quite possibly try to replicate your extensive, rigorous testing. Perhaps I've missed it. I couldn't find it in this post. We've seen other hard-data testing results that agrees with neither you nor with us, and those posts are great.
Critical expansion is neither too strong nor too weak. In a vacuum, that's meaningless. There is no reason to think it is necessary, nor to think it unnecessary.Seriously Varg, address this head-on and in-depth, because just saying that you agree it is too strong and nothing more, after it being a acceptable strength for every other class pass of the last 18 months is contradictory and is creating havoc between the community, confusing others. So please stop making these one and two word statements and vague comments that muddy the water and just drive drama, explain why it was fine then but bad now.
Master's Blitz provides a lot of melee power. Some players have suggested the current implementation is overpowered and/or that other Destinies should provide equal melee power. Yet, somehow Legendary Dreadnought is not consistently the highest DPS tree (including when testing Ranger). If anyone has testing showing otherwise, we want to hear the details - for Master's Blitz & Melee power, or for Ranger.
There is no reason a tool used in one place must be used in every other place. Melee Power, like Critical profile, is just another tool. It is neither inherently good nor bad.
Agreed.
We appreciate the idea, and have had discussed boosting Dexterity more in Tempest, but ultimately we decided we'd rather not go far down that path (and instead focused on rewarding you a bit more for having high Dexterity already).
Last edited by Vargouille; 09-22-2015 at 11:49 AM.
If you are comparing SWF and TWF attack speeds, please remember to count offhand attacks as additional.
SWF can and should receive more general attack speed than TWF, because TWF generally gets 80% more attacks than SWF, taking only the Feats themselves into account
Feat Bonuses
SWF: +30% attack speed, producing +~30% more hits
TWF: +80% hits
TWF gets lots of hits. It is the king of hits against single targets. (The discussion does get more complicated when you start talking about AoE - Cleaves or Tempest/Dance of Death, etc.)
I'm not going to comment on this, since I did not test ranger on Lamannia. You said ranger was competitive with SB and I believe you.
I think you're just giving people what they want, changing the tool from melee power to crit.
I support this, so people will resume talking about design rather than balance.
Very nice and I long to see this new option.
I not even thought about the possibility of having a passive running bonus instead of an active ability.
Nice.
But please do not do it only for light weapons
Then we have something like:
Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike and +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage chance when dual wielding, +5 Melee Power, +5 Incorporeality (stacking).
A Thousand Cuts:
Passively provides: "x doublestrike", "x Melee Power "
Last edited by sjbb87; 09-22-2015 at 12:23 PM.
Sigh. This really didn't need to be here, but everyone wanting to see some big number fly by made it so.
Can it be made optional? Such as, leave the melee power in, but have the +1 Crit Enhancement provide a passive -40 (or whatever) to melee power to zero it out?
Like 1KC it would be superior to offer a choice here. Not everyone wants to get thrown into the same old "+1 crit" path the rest of the game is. Having better all-round damage and not needing to worry about crit immunity/bypass is an appealing approach to some.
...
The rest of the changes look okay. I would still like to see some dodge-cap increase via max dex to armor going up. And maybe something to make two weapon defense worth taking (like in the core, maybe a step where if you have that feat you get more bonus or something), but otherwise its looking pretty good. Just please consider some options for people re: melee power vs crit profile too please. Thanks.
ugh. hope removing MP works out for the better and changing 1KC? guess I need to do some Lama work. I don't read that to be something that is a happy change.
0.o LD isn't the best ED for Tempest?! ive been planning that ED for my Tempest since EDs were released /sigh yep, Lama time.
#MakeDDOGreatAgain
You are the one choosing not to play alts.
Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter
I can truly sympathize with this thinking, but this isn't that likely to happen. It's more complicated, and the "fun" cost of negative penalties is pretty massive compared to the mathematical gain (even if players decide against it). Additionally, we're currently likely to put this as part of a Core ability, where we try a bit harder to avoid putting in negatives or abilities that some players are just going to dislike.
We'll still be keeping an eye on it, but this is essentially the role +5% stacking Incorporeality in Whirlwind is fulfilling - not quite the same as dodge cap increase or max dex, but on the whole is a similar kind of defense.The rest of the changes look okay. I would still like to see some dodge-cap increase via max dex to armor going up. And maybe something to make two weapon defense worth taking (like in the core, maybe a step where if you have that feat you get more bonus or something), but otherwise its looking pretty good. Just please consider some options for people re: melee power vs crit profile too please. Thanks.
New calcs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...T9gENrPV-b2l4/
Builds:
20 ranger
15 pal /5 ranger
20 pal
20 bard
20 pal vanguard/defender
20 barb
And I also added a pure ranger and a 15 pal / 5 ranger with my idea of +1 crit multiplier instead of Dual Perfection.
All are in LD.
PM for an edit link, I'm sure there are some numbers that can be adjusted.
If someone want to add a better bard build that would be great.
Scroll to the right (right of the orange column U) for the same builds with a bit less gear and stats.
Here is the relative DPS of the builds:
20 ranger: 100.00%
15 pal/5ranger: 122%
20 pal: 107%
20 bard: 80%
20 pal vg/sd 99%
20 barb: 126%
(And here is how it would look if Dual Perfection was replaced by +1 crit multiplier)
20 ranger: 100%
15 pal/5ranger: 108%
20 pal: 99%
20 bard: 74%
20 pal vg/sd 91%
20 barb: 116%
Last edited by Axeyu; 09-22-2015 at 02:15 PM.
This is important for people to understand, and relates to the concept of "Effective Hitpoints" (raw HP divided by % mitigation further divided by chance to be hit).
If you manage to find some spare time, it might be a good idea to include "Effective Hitpoints (melee)" (for miss chance & PRR) and "Effective Hitpoints (spell)" (for MRR) entries in the character sheet, within the HP tooltip somewhere below Heal Amp, which will make it a lot easier for people to understand and visually represent the impact of things like this.
This is sad.It really is.The tree will likely not be good in the end due to this, and even if it does, more importantly, it will simply change the tree into something that other classes alredy do.the option to use holy sword is alredy there, the people that want their crit multipliers can just do a paladin.It would be interesting to keep tempest with burst clickies and situational boosts instead, but now what...its gonna be close to every other tree of every other melee class.Wich is sad.
Theres no obligation to always listen to people, really.People are stupid, they hardly ever know what they really want.
I'd rather see the Dev team beign bold and keeping their first decision, specialy when they claim its more DPS on their end.
Give every person a gun and the richest man is the one that sells crutches