U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[Cordovan]

Please take a look at the Ranger Tempest and give us your feedback here!

[peng]

Will the various tempest abilities start to work with unarmed/wraps?

[Esgilioth]

Tempest seems alright, the survivability does leave something wanting but I was playing as a dex based, shortsword wielding drow so there is probably a better build for that. The enhancement Dual Perfection doesn't seem to be working as I have +69 to damage in my main and +57 in my off-hand. the damage is pretty nice, I wasn't playing a comp toon just had a few past lifes like my live toon. I had guild buffs, store pots and was running in LD ED and had about 58 dex and was smashing stuff for 440-500 base and about 1500-3000 crits(crits were often) in EE LoD. I haven't played the new quests with Tempest yet but it seems pretty decent. Melee Rangers wont be on par with Barb or Pally because of survivability it seems like(IMO) but pretty solid to me.

[Requiro]

First some little bugs:

Release Notes typos or bugs compare to Lamannia
- Elaborate Parry wrong description in Release Notes

Typo bugs in game:
- Dance of Death says 6 second duration, while its 10 second.
- The Growing Storm icon says +1 dmg -2AC, while there is no –AC effect on enemies or players.
- Dual Perfection could not working at all. I still get different dmg bonuses with offhand weapons, in character sheet.

And about a Tree:
Improvements are nice, but nothing special. And it’s not balance with other reworked classes.
IMO too much active abilities and too less passive abilities. Almost no support for light weapons, especially scimitars as great option to Khopesh, if they already light weapon with Core 6.

IMO, abilities in shot (with explanation)

Good Improvements:
- Shield of Whirling Steel – Adding MRR and PRR is nice.
- Improved Defense – Additional PRR is always welcome
- Action Boost – Reduce cost on 2 the best Boost are great. BTW: I wish I could take both…
- Stormdancer – Additional passive damage is great. Same with absorption.
- Elaborate Parry – Redesign to panic button. Nice, but very long cooldown.
- Dual Perfection – If it work right, very nice improvement to offhand weapons.

Average Improvements:
- Graceful Death – Ok improvement. On this level it’s minor but ok improvement. It’s sad that there is nothing for offhand weapons. Maybe +1 to hit for offhand weapon if it’s light weapon? (to support scimitars)
- Dervish - +2dex, +10 melee power, MRR, PRR is great improvement. But for Core 20 I want more. Something unique. Like attack speed that rise in time, when we hold attack button and stand still (+1% attack speed every 5 second, 10% maximum or 15% maximum if we hold both light weapon – that will support scimitars).
- Acrobatic – Reflex save is fine, but nothing impressive. Maybe Add +0/+1/+2 to hit for offhand weapon if it’s light weapon? (to support scimitars)
- A Thousand Cuts – Nice improvement, but still long cooldown. But at least it’s not 90 (or more) second…
- Whirling Blades – 3 dmg for T5 is not a strong ability. Well… 6 dmg on dual wielding. It’s nice, but just average on T5 with 8AP spend to get it. Maybe add additional dmg (+1) to offhand weapon if it’s light weapon (to support scimitars)

Poor Improvements:
- Whirlwind – Very poor improvement. It’s Core 18 ability, and while 5% double strike is nice, it’s nothing compare with other reworked classes. Other at this point gets +critical multiplier, threat, attack speed, and more. If Tempest, want be competitive with others, it’s need more, much more. If you don’t want give then critical threat or multiplier (because of 20% off hand chance, maybe), then give something to offhand weapons. Like +10% double strike to offhand weapons, or 5% attack speed when dualwielding, maintain 5% doublestrike and 5 melee power.
- Critical Mastery – While combine 2 most unimpressive abilities in one is good move, this new ability is just week. Add on 3rd rank + critical Multiplier to offhand weapon if it’s light weapon (to support scimitars) and it's brilliant.

Not touched abilities:
- Deflect Arrows (Core 12) – While most Devs thinks that Deflect Arrow feat is great ability, most players don’t. Maybe this Core ability need some love? Something that will improve offhand weapons if it’s light (for scimitar support). Something like +5% double strike to offhand if it’s light weapon.
- Improved Dodge/ Improved Mobility – Consider drop feat requirement. There is no need to force players to take that feats, if they want this ability.
- Improved Parry – Consider drop AP cost to 1/1/1. It’s heavy costly, and with all these changes, we will love to have more option then pure DPS.

[Vargouille]

Thanks for the feedback, we'll be looking into many of the things listed here.

[Seikojin]

First some little bugs:

...snip...

And about a Tree:
Improvements are nice, but nothing special. And it’s not balance with other reworked classes.
IMO too much active abilities and too less passive abilities. Almost no support for light weapons, especially scimitars as great option to Khopesh, if they already light weapon with Core 6.

IMO, abilities in shot (with explanation)

Good Improvements:
- Shield of Whirling Steel – Adding MRR and PRR is nice.
- Improved Defense – Additional PRR is always welcome
- Action Boost – Reduce cost on 2 the best Boost are great. BTW: I wish I could take both…
- Stormdancer – Additional passive damage is great. Same with absorption.
- Elaborate Parry – Redesign to panic button. Nice, but very long cooldown.
- Dual Perfection – If it work right, very nice improvement to offhand weapons.

Average Improvements:
- Graceful Death – Ok improvement. On this level it’s minor but ok improvement. It’s sad that there is nothing for offhand weapons. Maybe +1 to hit for offhand weapon if it’s light weapon? (to support scimitars)
- Dervish - +2dex, +10 melee power, MRR, PRR is great improvement. But for Core 20 I want more. Something unique. Like attack speed that rise in time, when we hold attack button and stand still (+1% attack speed every 5 second, 10% maximum or 15% maximum if we hold both light weapon – that will support scimitars).
- Acrobatic – Reflex save is fine, but nothing impressive. Maybe Add +0/+1/+2 to hit for offhand weapon if it’s light weapon? (to support scimitars)
- A Thousand Cuts – Nice improvement, but still long cooldown. But at least it’s not 90 (or more) second…
- Whirling Blades – 3 dmg for T5 is not a strong ability. Well… 6 dmg on dual wielding. It’s nice, but just average on T5 with 8AP spend to get it. Maybe add additional dmg (+1) to offhand weapon if it’s light weapon (to support scimitars)

Poor Improvements:
- Whirlwind – Very poor improvement. It’s Core 18 ability, and while 5% double strike is nice, it’s nothing compare with other reworked classes. Other at this point gets +critical multiplier, threat, attack speed, and more. If Tempest, want be competitive with others, it’s need more, much more. If you don’t want give then critical threat or multiplier (because of 20% off hand chance, maybe), then give something to offhand weapons. Like +10% double strike to offhand weapons, or 5% attack speed when dualwielding, maintain 5% doublestrike and 5 melee power.
- Critical Mastery – While combine 2 most unimpressive abilities in one is good move, this new ability is just week. Add on 3rd rank + critical Multiplier to offhand weapon if it’s light weapon (to support scimitars) and it's brilliant.

Not touched abilities:
- Deflect Arrows (Core 12) – While most Devs thinks that Deflect Arrow feat is great ability, most players don’t. Maybe this Core ability need some love? Something that will improve offhand weapons if it’s light (for scimitar support). Something like +5% double strike to offhand if it’s light weapon.
- Improved Dodge/ Improved Mobility – Consider drop feat requirement. There is no need to force players to take that feats, if they want this ability.
- Improved Parry – Consider drop AP cost to 1/1/1. It’s heavy costly, and with all these changes, we will love to have more option then pure DPS.

Personally I really like the changes. I agree that Dervish should offer a bit more. Like +4 dex and Attack speed boosting. I also agree that Whirlwind should offer more as well. Like shore up the offhand so it is 90% all said and done, so the last core can make it 100%. If they were to add attack speed to the cores, they could put 5% in the last 3. Don't take anything out mind you, just add these as well to make tempest stand in the right place. Since DWS doesn't offer things to replace, and would compliment with what Tempest offers.

I liked having deflect arrows added. It was nice to see it proccing fairly often.

I also think Improved parry should be 1/1/1.

[MrWindupBird]

Lamma impressions:

General feel is good. As discussed earlier, most special attacks (Dance of Death, Thousand Cuts, Exposing strike) integrate well into attack chain. Elaborate parry still feels weak, and has a too-long pause after activation. Not sure how I feel about Thousand Cuts yet: noticeable but not a gamechanger in any way.

General dps felt ok- stepped into EE ToEE Pt1, did Bruntsmash. No big numbers, but quite a few of them. Need more testing, but damage is much improved. There's still no real reason to go anything but Str-based with khopesh or warhammers (in LD for Pulverizer)- it'd be nice if there was a reason to stick to light weapons (rapier/scimitar/etc). Currently there is not. Maybe +1 crit on 19-20 for light weapons only in 18 core: that would at least balance rapier/scimitar with Khopesh (khopesh would still be ahead in DC, but thats alright).

Some descriptions are buggy, eg Dance of Death claims 6 sec duration 15 sec cooldown but is unchanged from its 10sec duration/15 sec cooldown on live.

Tempest tree is an AP-hog: no way to grab all the stuff I wanted from there. This isn't a bad thing, but AP-costs of some things could stand to be reduced (eg Elaborate Parry). Defenses felt better. Still feel like a bit more dodge would be good: PRR additions are more than adequate.

More feedback later.

[PsychoBlonde]

I liked having deflect arrows added. It was nice to see it proccing fairly often.

Yeah, in my experience deflect arrows is underrated. Archers are ubiquitous and can nibble a lot of health away. I've never regretted using a feat on it.

[HuneyMunster]

Improvements are nice, but nothing special. And it’s not balance with other reworked classes.
IMO too much active abilities and too less passive abilities. Almost no support for light weapons, especially scimitars as great option to Khopesh, if they already light weapon with Core 6.

Instead of adding more weapon types or improved crit profiles level 18 or 20 core could add a further 10% offhand attack chance to bring it up to 100% compared to other classes with 80% and 90% for monks.

- Deflect Arrows (Core 12) – While most Devs thinks that Deflect Arrow feat is great ability, most players don’t. Maybe this Core ability need some love? Something that will improve offhand weapons if it’s light (for scimitar support). Something like +5% double strike to offhand if it’s light weapon.

I think deflect arrows is an underrated feat especially as Tempest can get a 2 second cooldown. A single archer will usually never hit you with 2 sec cooldown, while in areas where there are swarms of archer that its a fair bit of damage reduction over time. Also can prevent a legshot from hampering your movability.

- Improved Dodge/ Improved Mobility – Consider drop feat requirement. There is no need to force players to take that feats, if they want this ability.

Dodge and Mobility are still good feats for a Tempest to get and along with Spring Attack are free if you allow for the TWF feats they get for free. The 7 dodge from those 3 feat is greater than the 6 dodge a rogue gets from from the passive part of Imp Uncanny Dodge and Bard from Uncanny dodge. I would prefer them to remain with the 3rd tier of Improved mobility granting Spring Attack feat.

- Elaborate Parry – Redesign to panic button. Nice, but very long cooldown.

At cap on a well built character 68-70 dex with just ship buffs is achievable which gives 29-30 dodge when active. This is 4-5 higher than a Bard uncanny dodge with a shorter cooldown of 90sec compared to 120sec, but 20-21 lower than Rogue with Imp Uncanny. Difference is Elaborate Parry is a lot more item and tome intensive than uncanny dodge and less effective at lower levels and for under geared characters.

[sjbb87]

Instead of adding more weapon types or improved crit profiles level 18 or 20 core could add a further 10% offhand attack chance to bring it up to 100% compared to other classes with 80% and 90% for monks.

Tempest: You gain +10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding. While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.

Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat while dual wielding, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. You also gain an additional 10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding.
Note: Does not work with handwraps.

[Cruxader]

Please take a look at the Ranger Tempest and give us your feedback here!

In general U28 looks interesting at least with the quests and a much needed pass on Ranger.
Stalker also looks cool with "Strikes Like Lightning" and "Headshot".

However Tempest frankly looks pretty "meh" so far.. it could certainly use more amps for TWF proc% and Double strike, which is pretty underutilized by melee toons atm compared to sword/board Vanguards or THF et cet.

To make people want to play melee TWF Rangers, perhaps entice them with a gain off 5% stacking Double strike on Tempest along with the described Core 1 and 2 if TWF to get them to try it, instead of only granting a useless TWF at 1 (when rangers already get it at 2?).

Also 60 sec timer on the Tier 5 Thousand Cuts is still just too long to be a go-to tier 5, maybe 30-45 sec.
Also something to boost Dance of Death would put TWF tempests back on the map, and closer to being on par with recent passes.

At least entice people to play melee rangers or everyone will just go range or stay warlock or rogue.

Even doing all of these together and Tempest will still be only 1/2 what the recent Warlock class and its enhancements offer, but will at least attract some attention back to TWF melee Ranger.
Anyway my .02 cents and that of my guild.

And thanks for the good work you guys generally do as well.
Respectfully,

[noinfo]

Please take a look at the Ranger Tempest and give us your feedback here!

I can see why some like the panic option of - Elaborate Parry

I would rather have seen a passive bonus of accumulative stacks based on hitting mobs stacking to dodge and dodge cap (max dependant on some sort of scale maybe dex bonus /something) that decay at a reasonable rate, as is its just a different version of uncanny dodge.

[N-0cturn]

I created a few ranger builds and tested them in the Tavern Brawl Quest:

Str-based Khopesh Tempest 20 Ranger:
DPS was good but not over the top. Dex-based would be an option but going from 1d8 to 1d6 and a weaker crit profile did not seem worth it for me. Survivability was an issue but I felt like it was ok. There is no need to go over the top like barb healing.

Int-based Khopesh Tempest 20 Ranger:
AP are extremely tight, but otherwise it performed well enough. I am not sure it it is worth it but might be a choice. My Original Ranger is 18/1/1 With Int-to-dmg and rogue skills however I don't think that this is still worth giving up the capstone. Especially because there are no AP left for other trees then Harper, DWS and Tempest.

Str-based Khopesh Tempest 13 Druid / 6 Ranger / 1 Fighter
Well this one was just silly. Let's just say it over-performed. The fact that you can profit from gSWF, gTWF and Natural Fighting at the same time has been stated to be not working as intended but has not been changed since the introduction of SWF as far as I am aware.

Notes:
- I consider Improved Parry to expensive with 2 AP/Tier
- I feel like Dex vs Str are kind of Balanced now because you have more DPS using Str. You can't get a much higher Str on a pure Ranger then Dex. You will bet 2 from Ram's Might and 5 from Primal Scream but that's about it. The main difference it the ability to use a Khopesh while the Dex build is limited to light weapons, but gets higher Reflex Save and a better Synergy with some Ranger abilities.

I still think that an improved Crit profile would be nice to allow more weapon usage, but it would shift the balance back to Dex builds. Also if you add a better crit profile please do it the bard way. If you would add just 1 crit range for light weapons, everyone would just use light picks. Even Holy Sword would not be so bad if it wouldn't be so extremely powerful with weapons that already have a great crit profile.

[GoldyGopher]

I am playing with a older build 36 points (16 Ranger/2 Rogue/2 Monk) which hasn't been adjusted for maximum FOTM style in some time... Unfortunately the character is under equipped in terms of gear as I had forgotten that TR Cache's are not transferred with Characters to Lamannia. While I tried EE the missing 30 points of AC and other damage mitigation factors I would normally have made my survivability none existent so I dropped down to Epic Hard.

The Character is a Dex Build using Thunderforged Rapiers...

In General I was disappointed with the DPS, well there is a chance it is because I am missing some points in Dex and Str from gear, it simply felt that I was not getting the bumps that many str builds are getting in other PREs.

The lack of DPS was very noticeable when I encountered the named mini-bosses in a couple of quests. The one named orthon in Grim and Beer it (or what ever it was called) took over two minutes to beat down on Epic Hard.

[Alkusoittow]

DPS is decent, but is lower than a swashbuckler... the cap of tempest needs a boost. In my opinion, a pure tempest ranger should definitely be doing more DPS than a bard, so perhaps add the following:

You now treat Khopeshs as if they were light melee weapons.

Or bastard swords.

Reasoning:
You're already allowing Scimitar's to be treated as light weapons (2nd core), but they do the same damage as a rapier (a light weapon). Doesn't seem to be a point (other than trading slashing for pierce). Anyway, you've already broken the seal when it comes to adding additional weapons to the Dex build outside of "light" weapons.

Secondly, tempest needs a DPS boost. Adding khopesh or bastard sword accomplishes that, but not at an outrageous level.
-You need to be pure Ranger, so you can't enhance it with any Kensei abilities.
-Many would take exotic weapon proficiency, thus trading off something else, creating some kind of balance

Alternatively, change it to:
You now treat longswords as if they were light melee weapons.

The DPS is lower than khopesh or BS, but higher than scimitars/rapiers/etc. Can't be combined with any monk-like abilities (i.e. whirling steel strike, centered bonus, etc) because you are pure Ranger. But, you get a nice DPS boost as a bonus for staying pure.

Khopesh/BS: Adds a lot more DPS, requires a potential feat trade off
Longsword: Adds DPS, but not as much. Does not require feat.

Either of those would make Tempest and Pure Ranger much more appetizing.

[Saekee]

DPS is decent, but is lower than a swashbuckler... the cap of tempest needs a boost. In my opinion, a pure tempest ranger should definitely be doing more DPS than a bard, so perhaps add the following:

You now treat Khopeshs as if they were light melee weapons.

Or bastard swords.

Reasoning:
You're already allowing Scimitar's to be treated as light weapons (2nd core), but they do the same damage as a rapier (a light weapon). Doesn't seem to be a point (other than trading slashing for pierce). Anyway, you've already broken the seal when it comes to adding additional weapons to the Dex build outside of "light" weapons.

Secondly, tempest needs a DPS boost. Adding khopesh or bastard sword accomplishes that, but not at an outrageous level.
-You need to be pure Ranger, so you can't enhance it with any Kensei abilities.
-Many would take exotic weapon proficiency, thus trading off something else, creating some kind of balance

Alternatively, change it to:
You now treat longswords as if they were light melee weapons.

The DPS is lower than khopesh or BS, but higher than scimitars/rapiers/etc. Can't be combined with any monk-like abilities (i.e. whirling steel strike, centered bonus, etc) because you are pure Ranger. But, you get a nice DPS boost as a bonus for staying pure.

Khopesh/BS: Adds a lot more DPS, requires a potential feat trade off
Longsword: Adds DPS, but not as much. Does not require feat.

Either of those would make Tempest and Pure Ranger much more appetizing.

just a note, ninjas ANT get dex to hit and damage by 3rd level with all piercing and slashing weapons, so with longswords a splash could get it dex to damage. Not sure if they need to be centered for dex to damage on ninja level 3 core; the description does not say so.

[Alkusoittow]

just a note, ninjas ANT get dex to hit and damage by 3rd level with all piercing and slashing weapons, so with longswords a splash could get it dex to damage. Not sure if they need to be centered for dex to damage on ninja level 3 core; the description does not say so.

The whole point was to give PURE rangers a boost in the capstone, to incentivize pure builds. Currently, a pure Tempest ranger does not have the DPS to compete with pure Swashbuckling Bard, or many other builds. Pure ranger stacks up even worse compared to splashes:
Take Whirling Steel Strike as a monk, and treat longswords as monk weapons (stay centered).
Kensei's One With The Blade: Focus weapons keep you centered. (etc)

Using this, you can use dex-to-hit/dmg (Ninja Spy, core 2). So, splash build...

My point was to boost the capstone of Ranger such that people would actually want to go pure Ranger, and not leave the class as nothing but a splash-class, which is how it is right now (pre U28).

What's the point of working over the entire class and enhancements if you're not giving a strong incentive to go pure?

Is the design of ranger to be a supporting splash to support other builds? Really?

[Gremmlynn]

DPS is decent, but is lower than a swashbuckler... the cap of tempest needs a boost. In my opinion, a pure tempest ranger should definitely be doing more DPS than a bard, so perhaps add the following:

You now treat Khopeshs as if they were light melee weapons.

Or bastard swords.

Reasoning:
You're already allowing Scimitar's to be treated as light weapons (2nd core), but they do the same damage as a rapier (a light weapon). Doesn't seem to be a point (other than trading slashing for pierce). Anyway, you've already broken the seal when it comes to adding additional weapons to the Dex build outside of "light" weapons.

Secondly, tempest needs a DPS boost. Adding khopesh or bastard sword accomplishes that, but not at an outrageous level.
-You need to be pure Ranger, so you can't enhance it with any Kensei abilities.
-Many would take exotic weapon proficiency, thus trading off something else, creating some kind of balance

Alternatively, change it to:
You now treat longswords as if they were light melee weapons.

The DPS is lower than khopesh or BS, but higher than scimitars/rapiers/etc. Can't be combined with any monk-like abilities (i.e. whirling steel strike, centered bonus, etc) because you are pure Ranger. But, you get a nice DPS boost as a bonus for staying pure.

Khopesh/BS: Adds a lot more DPS, requires a potential feat trade off
Longsword: Adds DPS, but not as much. Does not require feat.

Either of those would make Tempest and Pure Ranger much more appetizing.

Actually, rapiers, while being finesse-able weapons, are not light weapons.

Also, how do you see long swords are being better DPS than scimitars outside of extremely high fort mobs? Even bastard swords would be a worse choice most of the time due to dual wielding not allowing for glancing blows with them.

[Alkusoittow]

Actually, rapiers, while being finesse-able weapons, are not light weapons.

Also, how do you see long swords are being better DPS than scimitars outside of extremely high fort mobs? Even bastard swords would be a worse choice most of the time due to dual wielding not allowing for glancing blows with them.

Actually, rapiers are considered light blades (in DDO). I can't speak for PNP...

From Kensei:
"Kensei Focus: Light Blades: You focus your Kensei training in the use of light blades. You gain +1 to hit with daggers, kukri, rapiers, shortswords, and throwing daggers."

(They weight 2lbs, same as a short sword, etc)

Longswords do 1d8, with x2 crit 19-20.
Scimitars do 1d6, with x2 crit 18-20.

Since most people will likely use Thunderforged weapons, look at this chart:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Thunder_Forge/weapon_chart

Bastard Sword: BDR 30.80
Longsword: 26.95
Scimitar: 24.15
Rapier: 24.15

That's nearly a 12% increase over scimitar for longswords, and almost 28% more for BS.

There are no glancing blows from two weapon fighting anyway, regardless of weapon choice. BS was picked because of its high DPS for a single handed weapon. (Same with Khopesh, which some people prefer because of its crit profile)