U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[Artagon]

I think thousand cuts should be balanced such that the passive option has a slightly higher average bonus compared to the uptime of the active version. That way people who use it well are rewarded for it, however people who take the passive will end up with slightly more dps than the ones who take the active but use it poorly. Say 2/4/6 or maybe 3/5/7 instead of the current 2/3/4 makes sense.

The T5 from harper which provides Melee Power is on a 2/4/6 progression... and it does not increase double-strike. Not arguing with you, just pointing it out as a comparison of T5s.

[mezzorco]

We intentionally want the clickie, active version to be stronger. I'm concerned that it's not a big enough difference, personally. Right now the passive version is 80% as strong as the active, which is probably on the side of too much.

Maybe.
Take into account, though, that in heroics things are different from what you depict.
Bosses in heroics last a lot fewer than 15 seconds, so against bosses in heroics you have full uptime.
Even in epic, while doing trash mobs, part of the cooldown passes while you're moving from a trash pack to another, so your uptime is greater than 15 out of 90.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just to reassure you it's not a lot on the side of too much. I'd call it even

[Grailhawk]

We intentionally want the clickie, active version to be stronger. I'm concerned that it's not a big enough difference, personally. Right now the passive version is 80% as strong as the active, which is probably on the side of too much.

... even if it means you are slightly slower at taking out the trash ... losing 3-4 MP and Doublestrike probably isn't going to be the dealbreaker in that situation, while 30/30 might be in another situation.

From a balance perspective, it's not a trivial decision! Yay!.

Ya that sounds right I think making the passive 1/2/3 is the right call IMO.

[sjbb87]

-


Still nothing extra for light weapon users (maybe in Core 20? T5?)


No?
Already get for free

You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.
While you are dual wielding, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with light melee weapons
Dervish: Passive: +4 Dexterity
Elaborate Parry: For the next 6/12/18 seconds, you gain Dodge, Maximum Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus to light armor, equal to your Dexterity Modifier

more AC
More HP(Do not waste points into strength)
more reflex




- Still nothing like Archer Focus melee version (bonus that grow up when you stand still and damaging opponents in combat)
No need... You still get 20 melee power with DWS + tempest


- Core 18 is still unattractive (nothing that convince people to go 18 or stay Pure)


No?

Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike chance when dual wielding, +5 Incorporeality (stacking)
You also gain an additional 10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding


- A thousand Cut passive is weak (explanation below)

Suggestion (again and again)
- Core 20: +1 threat critical for offhand if it's light weapon
- Core 18: +5% double strike for offhand weapon
- A thousand Cut: Passive: +3/4/5 MP and 3/4/5 double strike to main and off hand weapon.



It's a favor what they are doing.
And even as they wrote, they prefer people to choose, click the version


I don't see a logic here.

Passive ability should be more powerful, because you are not get any bonuses every time when you run to another group of monsters.
While with active ability, you can maintain your cooldown time to run to other group of monsters.

That's why with theoretical same bonuses (like +3/4/5 vs 15 sec +30) most passive players can't get full value (+5) all the time, while active players with good micro, can have +30 all the time (situational with some luck and skill).

But I guess that was the goal to create useless ability that MUST be inferior...

Coments in Color

[Fecerak]

If you are using 1000 cuts well it should be performing more than 100%. Say that over the course of 90 seconds you swing a total of 100 times (random arbitrary number). If used well the 15 seconds where you use 1000 cuts could easily account for 30 of those swings, giving you an average increase of +9 MP/DS. If you use it poorly you might do as few as 0 of those 100 swings in the 15 second window, giving it an average value of +0 MP/DS. Currently the passive gives 4 MP/DS, which seems a bit on the low side, considering how a well used 1k cuts could easily approach the value of having +9-12 MP/DS. Thus I would argue that 2/4/6 sounds more fair overall.

[Vargouille]

Take into account, though, that in heroics things are different from what you depict.
Bosses in heroics last a lot fewer than 15 seconds, so against bosses in heroics you have full uptime.
Even in epic, while doing trash mobs, part of the cooldown passes while you're moving from a trash pack to another, so your uptime is greater than 15 out of 90.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just to reassure you it's not a lot on the side of too much. I'd call it even

The mostly likely drag on efficiency and uptime is if you can't click the button IMMEDIATELY when it's off cooldown and get full effectiveness for the 15 seconds it's up. The cooldown is 90 seconds, but if you only use it every 105 seconds on average (because you are running between mobs, for instance), then the uptime goes from 1/6 to 1/7 -- which means your 30/30 bonuses are ~4.2 equivalents. If you click the button any less than often than that, the passive is stronger. Or if you miss even 2 seconds out of the 15 (because you are of course pushing it as close as you can once it's off cooldown, so you aren't waiting for a boss), then you are losing 2/15 efficiently -- suddenly your uptime is only 13s out of 90s, or ~14.4%, or ~4.3 equivalence.

If you are ever not using the full 15s bonus when you click it, OR not immediately clicking it when it's off cooldown, it's very easy to suddenly drop in efficiency. If you lose both 15s (on average) wandering around and losing 2s on average of the 15s uptime, you are at 13s / 105s, or ~12.4%, or ~3.7% equivalent, worse than the passive @4.

We think it's possible in many dungeons for this to be better for the active version, along with the consideration that killing bosses faster usually makes more of a difference than kill trash faster (etc.). We don't think this would be the case with a starting equivalence -- and, to repeat myself: We consider it a goal that the active version should be superior, in the hands of a skilled player.

So much math!

[Mindos]

So much math!

If Varg works till 8pm, but isn't paid overtime, how much Fruit Tuesday must he acquire to balance the scales?

I was gonna ask which fruit is the most expensive, but then it hit me: Honeydew, that's your real money melon, right there. (insert Krusty Simpsons clip here)

[Delacroix21]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

Wow, now this tree SUPER sucks! Varg are you kidding me? A tier 5 ability that adds 4% meele power? At most this will add what? a whopping 6 meele power! and 4% doublestrike?! For a tier 5?!


Seriously leave the tree as is. If adding +1 crit multi (and NO crit range!) means nerfing the tree into a pile of ****, then I DO NOT want the crit multi!

[MonadRebelion]

Some changes we're expecting to work on soon:

• We're probably going to put in some Competence bonus to Critical weapon profiles. This is going to require removing quite a bit of power that is currently in the tree. A lot of melee power is likely to be removed.
• 1KC: A Thousand Cuts is probably going to get an multiple-choice option which is completely passive and mathematically inferior. It will be the case that we expect maximum DPS to only be achieved with the most interactive gameplay version of 1KC, but players who simply don't prefer that gameplay style have an option which doesn't give up all of that DPS.

I'm sadden to hear this. I was looking forward to playing a melee style that wasn't all about crits. The way the design was being pushed was a lot more interesting to me than the new direction. The idea of a kind of melee with fewer crits, but lots of attacks with at a solid baseline is interesting. It would allow you to build a character effectively for weapon effects. That would have been cool. The new direction is just another step in the direction of making everything the same.

[Assassination]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

I really like these changes.

[btolson]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

Just want to point out, that if 1k is going to see a 1/3 reduction in power (which is fine IMO), then it should also see a 1/3 reduction in cost.

Seems obvious to discard rank 3 of the ability, and make ranks 1 & 2 grant 15/30 active benefits, 2/4 passive benefits. That makes for a more sensible progression for the passive side too.

[Kielbasa]

Changes look interesting. Considering rangers don't have a ton a sneak attack like rogues or much that scaled very well with melee power trading for a crit buff should be a positive. 1k cuts is still going to be better than the current live version so it should see some use as well.

[Thar]

Wow, now this tree SUPER sucks! Varg are you kidding me? A tier 5 ability that adds 4% meele power? At most this will add what? a whopping 6 meele power! and 4% doublestrike?! For a tier 5?!


Seriously leave the tree as is. If adding +1 crit multi (and NO crit range!) means nerfing the tree into a pile of ****, then I DO NOT want the crit multi!

don't be touching the crit!!!! #critmod. I was hoping for both or at least adding threat to light weapons and modifier to all.

it is weak for a tier 5 but you can take the clickie and try to tweak it's use for more. personally i hate clickies and the 4% is too little for 3 ap imo.

my concern is still the defense. 17 prr + 5 incorp helps. it does. but i don't think it's enough to keep the class standing. not saying we need 50 prr so we can tank. we need to maybe add 1 prr per hit to 1000 cuts degrading at 1 per 5 secs. cap 4x ranger level. or something that gives roughly 20 prr, or 10% dodge/cap, or 20 ish ac. but those are probably too much for heroics so i see the dilema. how to improve end game defense and keep the class grounded in heroics.

[Thar]

Just want to point out, that if 1k is going to see a 1/3 reduction in power (which is fine IMO), then it should also see a 1/3 reduction in cost.

Seems obvious to discard rank 3 of the ability, and make ranks 1 & 2 grant 15/30 active benefits, 2/4 passive benefits. That makes for a more sensible progression for the passive side too.

yes i could see a 2ap for max version here or even 1ap since it needs a prereq. probably not easy to tear that apart though and recode for a different scale.

[Seikojin]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

As I say at work, QA approves

I think this is a perfectly fine change. It leaves room to improve in gear for endgame, or destinies when they get retooled, etc. So yeah.

[Propane]

I'm sadden to hear this. I was looking forward to playing a melee style that wasn't all about crits. The way the design was being pushed was a lot more interesting to me than the new direction. The idea of a kind of melee with fewer crits, but lots of attacks with at a solid baseline is interesting. It would allow you to build a character effectively for weapon effects. That would have been cool. The new direction is just another step in the direction of making everything the same.

Agreed - the old setup felt different than other classes - just needed some polish. It was close - a little more testing and tweaking and home free-

I am surprised and and sadden to see this much change without testing in L-land... please change back and test...

[sjbb87]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

With all these changes I feel that the tree this very good.
Since the Lamannia this without a tool to transfer the character, I will have to wait out officially.
Ae yes I know if this defensively well in epic quest.

And thank the developers for listening to the community and always find a balance satisfying.

[Qhualor]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

well, without the MP that apparently is too much to have also with +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage, ill be dipping into Harper for MP and there is some nice synergy from there with Tempest. ill choose Doublestrike over the 4% MP in a T5. for a T5 it really should be 4/6/8% to even consider taking it. I would most certainly be relying on A Thousand Cuts and finger banging that button after every cooldown. im not sure I like this option, but I will see.

[apep1412]

The mostly likely drag on efficiency and uptime is if you can't click the button IMMEDIATELY when it's off cooldown and get full effectiveness for the 15 seconds it's up. The cooldown is 90 seconds, but if you only use it every 105 seconds on average (because you are running between mobs, for instance), then the uptime goes from 1/6 to 1/7 -- which means your 30/30 bonuses are ~4.2 equivalents. If you click the button any less than often than that, the passive is stronger. Or if you miss even 2 seconds out of the 15 (because you are of course pushing it as close as you can once it's off cooldown, so you aren't waiting for a boss), then you are losing 2/15 efficiently -- suddenly your uptime is only 13s out of 90s, or ~14.4%, or ~4.3 equivalence.

If the reason for activating the ability later than 90 seconds is because you are running between groups, then you also aren't benefiting from the passive ability during that time; the relative effectiveness would stay the same or benefit the active ability. The relative effectiveness would benefit the passive ability if the cooldown expires near the end of killing a group, where you would either waste a part of the effect by using it immediately or save it until the situation allows you to utilize the entire duration. The active effect also has the (very low) chance of not triggering due to missing/grazing the enemy, assuming it works the same way that quickstrike from the rogue/monk trees works.

[edrein]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

Perhaps a bit late to speak up, but how about you consider a multiselector at core 12 that would allow us to choose between the multiplier or the original proposed changes?

Additionally, have you considered further tweaking the flavor lightning damage? Perhaps tying to the cores as well to boost their relevance a bit as well? The reason I say this is 2d6 is not only low, but for the AP cost a slap in the face to rangers for "flavor" damage.

Warlocks get 3d6 light damage on their ELDRITCH BLASTS, MELEE, and RANGED attacks that scale with light spellpower; something that the tree supports and buffs. A pure warlock then gains an additional 3d6 light damage that stacks with this one at level 18. A pure paladin gains 7d6 light damage that scales 100% with melee power. A barbarian's Death Frenzy is 4d6 untyped scaled by 100% melee power along with pained touch adding up to an additional 2d6 untyped scaling 100% with melee power. Rogue has Venomed Blades dealing 1d8 poison scaling 200% with melee power, along with sneak attack now scaling with melee power. Sadly Warchanter's Iced Edges doesn't scale at all; perhaps it should get a scaling effect while we're mentioning all the various melee power on hit effects. Scaling the Storm Dancer/Storm Tempest at 100% melee power means it will rarely hit past 30 points of damage for the average player at level 20 before destinies are added in. I'd suggest that you instead combine these two tiers as is into a T3 enhancement under Storm Dancer, then go and turn Storm Tempest into an additional damage die to 3d6 with a lightning burst effect, which ties into the general theme of striking fast with high crit threat weapons but lower multipliers.

Personally, I'd request that Whirling Blades be removed and replaced with another flavor ability; Adding a proc on 19-20 rolls for either Thunderstruck or Cloudburst, or something similar to these two abilities. Preferably with an AoE affect to aid general DPS. Simply code it to do damage based on character level say; 10d(character level)+(ranger level) sonic and 10d(character level)+(ranger level) electric damage in a small radius. To me this would be a much more unique way to approach the DPS concerns of players than giving us another competence to crit multipliers for all weapons. Although I'd love to see some scimitar love somewhere in the higher cores, given our favorite Drow 'ranger' has made the weapon so Iconic to the class.