U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[btolson]

Not signed ! This would be the worst change ever and put pure classes further ahead of multiclasses.

This is already the case with barbarians, rogues and now you want them to do the same with tempest ?

No, thank you.


I had rather quit the game then.

The power of +crit will offset the loss of +dam on the offhand, especially on builds not using DM.

[DevilYouKnow]

Or this:

T5 or Core 4 ability:

Ranger Rage: Watching Paladins out-ranger you the past 2 years has infuriated you! You can take it no longer! You gain a +1 crit multiplier and crit range to single handed weapons, competence bonus but of course...

/not signed. This cycle of copy cat builds has to stop. No more boring changes please.

[DevilYouKnow]

The power of +crit will offset the loss of +dam on the offhand, especially on builds not using DM.

What do you mean on builds not using dm ? You can just use know the angels from harper agent. It is basically the same. Why do you hate splashed paladins so much ? Do you want to destroy multiclassing at all cost ? Without the t5 petfect dual ability going multiclassing would no longer make any sense and make pure tempest no brainer. Are you trying to kill multiclass builds so badly ?

[Vargouille]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

[Thar]

Hopefully, Critical Boosts will either go into t5 as kensei, or no higher than core4 (level 12). Otherwise, stripping power out of t5s and lower cores for this will greatly shift the balance towards Pure and away from MC, when I think the relative balance between the two is just about right atm.

defensively i think 18/20 needs some help vs other light armor builds but with the crit multiplier it may look ok depending how the other changes are backed out or not.

[Thar]

/not signed. This cycle of copy cat builds has to stop. No more boring changes please.

so you'd rather have 10 melee power vs a crit damage multipler? melee power seems the more boring choice here.

i'll admit i was intrigued by some of the add alacrity/speed suggestions.

[Axeyu]

I most definitely like a strong level 12 core to mix things up a bit.

[sjbb87]

Or this:

T5 or Core 4 ability:

Ranger Rage: Watching Paladins out-ranger you the past 2 years has infuriated you! You can take it no longer! You gain a +1 crit multiplier and crit range to single handed weapons, competence bonus but of course...

I laughed a little with this comment xD

[Grailhawk]

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
(Retains the existing actual arrow deflecting capabilities.)

12/8 Ranger/Fighter was thought of when this was designed yes?

[btolson]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
(Retains the existing actual arrow deflecting capabilities.)

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

So it is essentially a trade of +1 Crit Multi, for -10 MP and an additional average -2.5 DS & -2.5 MP? (I assume cooldown on 1k is still 90 seconds.)

[Grailhawk]

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

Not sure I like this? Is it still a 90 second cooldown?

30 * 15/90 = 5 so the active ability is an average 5% increase to both MP and DS its bursty which can be nice but when compared to a passive 4% its really not that much nicer. Especially since you really cant maintain 100% effectiveness with this.

But losing the MP out of ATC and having a passive +1 crit multiplier is nicer ...

[Thar]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
(Retains the existing actual arrow deflecting capabilities.)

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

this seems like a good compromise although i'm still in the crowd thinking dex based need more dps, but i'll wait to test this change first.

The clickie permanent option is fair. for 90 sec recharge. 4x 6 15 sec intervals = 24 vs burst at 30 for 15 sec. to up it to 5 would be the same and not give the clickie an incentive.

[CrackedIce]

12/8 Ranger/Fighter was thought of when this was designed yes?

But that build will not have tier 5 of tempest so should be fair exchange.

[Grailhawk]

But that build will not have tier 5 of tempest so should be fair exchange.

Ya, that's true I'm just pointing out the most obvious multiclass option that comes to mind. Fortunately you cant fit 1 monk in that 12/8 build lol.

[sjbb87]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

In theory this perfect

Maybe ... this little adjustment to get right with the other bonus of the tempest.

Many Cuts: [/B]+3/4/5% Melee Power and 3/4/5 Doublestrike

[Fecerak]

I think thousand cuts should be balanced such that the passive option has a slightly higher average bonus compared to the uptime of the active version. That way people who use it well are rewarded for it, however people who take the passive will end up with slightly more dps than the ones who take the active but use it poorly. Say 2/4/6 or maybe 3/5/7 instead of the current 2/3/4 makes sense.

[Vargouille]

Not sure I like this? Is it still a 90 second cooldown?

Yes.

30 * 15/90 = 5 so the active ability is an average 5% increase to both MP and DS its bursty which can be nice but when compared to a passive 4% its really not that much nicer. Especially since you really cant maintain 100% effectiveness with this.

Maybe ... this little adjustment to get right with the other bonus of the tempest.

Many Cuts: [/B]+3/4/5% Melee Power and 3/4/5 Doublestrike

We intentionally want the clickie, active version to be stronger. I'm concerned that it's not a big enough difference, personally. Right now the passive version is 80% as strong as the active, which is probably on the side of too much. We're willing to try this, though, and see. Due to the numbers involved, the other potential numbers for Many Cuts is 1/2/3 (or 60% compared to the active). It's definitely not going to 3/4/5, which would make it basically equivalent general DPS as 1000 Cuts, which we consider undesirable. This is something of an experiment in how directly it compares, but generally we do like rewarding more interactive and/or difficult gameplay, other things being equal.

It's true that maintaining 100% effectiveness with 1000 Cuts is difficult. Part of this balancing question is how efficient can you be. If you can be 90% efficient, you are getting 1/8 more damage than the passive version. Maybe that's not enough! Efficiency will also vary from player to player and even quest to quest. And there are going to be times where one would save more than the other - if the burst of 1000 Cuts means you drop a boss faster and no one dies, that's a big deal, even if it means you are slightly slower at taking out the trash, which may not be very threatening - losing 3-4 MP and Doublestrike probably isn't going to be the dealbreaker in that situation, while 30/30 might be in another situation.

From a balance perspective, it's not a trivial decision! Yay!

I think thousand cuts should be balanced such that the passive option has a slightly higher average bonus compared to the uptime of the active version. That way people who use it well are rewarded for it, however people who take the passive will end up with slightly more dps than the ones who take the active but use it poorly. Say 2/4/6 or maybe 3/5/7 instead of the current 2/3/4 makes sense.

This reward/penatly is still true with a weaker passive version. It would not be hard at all to have worse than 80% effectiveness with 1000 Cuts. There are situations where you can argue that 1000 Cuts is "better than 100%", but that's not going to be very common.

[sjbb87]

Yes.




We intentionally want the clickie, active version to be stronger. I'm concerned that it's not a big enough difference, personally. Right now the passive version is 80% as strong as the active, which is probably on the side of too much. We're willing to try this, though, and see. Due to the numbers involved, the other potential numbers for Many Cuts is 1/2/3 (or 60% compared to the active). It's definitely not going to 3/4/5, which would make it basically equivalent general DPS as 1000 Cuts, which we consider undesirable. This is something of an experiment in how directly it compares, but generally we do like rewarding more interactive and/or difficult gameplay, other things being equal.

It's true that maintaining 100% effectiveness with 1000 Cuts is difficult. Part of this balancing question is how efficient can you be. If you can be 90% efficient, you are getting 1/8 more damage than the passive version. Maybe that's not enough! Efficiency will also vary from player to player and even quest to quest. And there are going to be times where one would save more than the other - if the burst of 1000 Cuts means you drop a boss faster and no one dies, that's a big deal, even if it means you are slightly slower at taking out the trash, which may not be very threatening - losing 3-4 MP and Doublestrike probably isn't going to be the dealbreaker in that situation, while 30/30 might be in another situation.

From a balance perspective, it's not a trivial decision! Yay!


This reward/penatly is still true with a weaker passive version. It would not be hard at all to have worse than 80% effectiveness with 1000 Cuts. There are situations where you can argue that 1000 Cuts is "better than 100%", but that's not going to be very common.

OK.
I think just the choice of a penalty for an inherent bonus.

[Nobnarb]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
.

Haven't had as much opportunity as some to test these changes, but I'm curious if there is a reason not to give this in T5 as well? Looking at Assassin tree I see two instances of Crit Multiplier increases, and they appear to be of different types (and thus stacking). Any reason to not add a +1 Competence bonus in T5 (Maybe replace current Whirling Blades effect) only with weapons that would be getting dex-hit, and a version through core 4+ that works for any weapon type (i.e. khopesh)? The only weapon I can see that would fall into this list that is not a base x2 already is light pick (20/x4). As it sits currently, rog5 splash could go for t5 Assassin and pick up one of the two Crit Mods, while still using other levels for other class abilities. I believe Holy Sword is a competence type, so this prevents stacking with Holy Sword.

Now, I'm not trying to necessarily make the trees similar, but I think there's enough thematic/design difference in the them that the crit buffs are more for DPS balancing while leaving theme of tree as-is.

I could be completely wrong though and have missed something regarding stacking, or this may be too big of a boost.

[Requiro]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Double strike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Double strike.

- Still nothing extra for light weapon users (maybe in Core 20? T5?)
- Still nothing like Archer Focus melee version (bonus that grow up when you stand still and damaging opponents in combat)
- Core 18 is still unattractive (nothing that convince people to go 18 or stay Pure)
- A thousand Cut passive is weak (explanation below)

Suggestion (again and again)
- Core 20: +1 threat critical for offhand if it's light weapon
- Core 18: +5% double strike for offhand weapon
- A thousand Cut: Passive: +3/4/5 MP and 3/4/5 double strike to main and off hand weapon.

(...) It's definitely not going to 3/4/5, which would make it basically equivalent general DPS as 1000 Cuts, which we consider undesirable. This is something of an experiment in how directly it compares, but generally we do like rewarding more interactive and/or difficult gameplay, other things being equal.

(...)

I don't see a logic here.

Passive ability should be more powerful, because you are not get any bonuses every time when you run to another group of monsters.
While with active ability, you can maintain your cooldown time to run to other group of monsters.

That's why with theoretical same bonuses (like +3/4/5 vs 15 sec +30) most passive players can't get full value (+5) all the time, while active players with good micro, can have +30 all the time (situational with some luck and skill).

But I guess that was the goal to create useless ability that MUST be inferior...