U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[Alkusoittow]

Ok, for the case of Crit Mod +1 and Crit Range x2, the following is a chart of average damage per swing as a function of bonus base damage.
(Bonus base damage can come from stat modifier, deadly, enhancement bonus, power attack, etc):



By the time the bonus has reached 3 (yes only 3), the khopesh is on top and remains so, forever. The slope of the khopesh and scimitar lines is 1.55, whereas the longsword and BS have a slope of 1.35.

If you consider a Seeker +12 item, the slopes are the same, but the divergence is immediate from the start. The khopesh is always #1, followed by the scimitar:


So I think that settles it: khopesh is better than scimitar, but the difference becomes increasingly less important with higher base damage bonus. With a base damage bonus of 20 (not hard to reach!), the difference is 4% (without a seeker item).

[J-mann]

Why not? We've come this far! I have a +10 seeker with +2 exc seeker (tot +12). As far as I'm aware, the max you can get is +15, unless there's something else I'm unaware of...?



Khopesh still on top, though only marginally. BS and LS are way behind. Gonna plot this vs bonus damage. My guess is rapiers and scimitars approach khopesh damage at level 25+ only.

Not to nit pick, but exceptional seeker is up to 5 and regular is up to 12 and then you also have several enhancements and Epic destiny abilities to add to it, there is a feat as well but it is rarely *if ever* taken.

[MrWindupBird]

Ok, for the case of Crit Mod +1 and Crit Range x2, the following is a chart of average damage per swing as a function of bonus base damage.
(Bonus base damage can come from stat modifier, deadly, enhancement bonus, power attack, etc):



By the time the bonus has reached 3 (yes only 3), the khopesh is on top and remains so, forever. The slope of the khopesh and scimitar lines is 1.55, whereas the longsword and BS have a slope of 1.35.

If you consider a Seeker +12 item, the slopes are the same, but the divergence is immediate from the start. The khopesh is always #1, followed by the scimitar:


So I think that settles it: khopesh is better than scimitar, but the difference becomes increasingly less important with higher base damage bonus. With a base damage bonus of 20 (not hard to reach!), the difference is 4% (without a seeker item).

No disrespect intended, but your math is very wrong again.

Here's the corrected version, comparing scimitar and khopesh. It matters to get this right, since the balance between khopesh and scimitar currently means that there is no reason to go dex-based on a tempest (~4 reflex is all you get, and lose about 10% damage).

Let R be total damage on a non-crit swing: ie 4.5[d6] + deadly + str mod + etc + etc....
Let S be seeker damage
Assuming 5[w] (4.5w TF + 0.25 boat +0.5 PA is already more. Increasing total W further favors khopesh)
Assuming hit on a 2 (requiring higher to-hits further favors the khopesh: lower rolls effectively dilute critical-dependence)
Assuming both overwhelming critical and devastating critical (again, removing these effectively favors khopesh)

Scimitar
2-14 x1, 15-18 x2, 19-20 x4
Total: 13R + 4 x2[R+S] + 2 x4[R+S]
= 29R + 16S


Khopesh does R+5 damage (1d8 vs 1d6, 5W)
2-16 x1, 17-18 x3, 19-20 x5
Total: 15(R+5) + 2 x3[R+5+S] + 2 x5[R+5+S]
= 31(R+5) + 16S

So even ignoring the increased base damage of khopesh: khopesh does 31/29 or about 7% more damage than scimitar. Including seeker as ~25% of total damage (ie R = 100, seeker = 25) makes that 6%.

If you assume the total physical damage R is about 100 (before melee power), then that 5 extra damage from 1d8 vs 1d6 (5W) is another 5%, for a total of about 12% more damage.

Khopesh is ahead at any damage mod, from lvl 1 onwards, and all the assumptions I have made are as favorable as possible for the scimitar.
I'm harping on this point because unless scimitars/light weapons are improved somehow in Tempest (or khopesh count as light weapons and therefore are viable with dex), dex-based is dead in the water.

[Arkai]

Hi, guys

I read in the other post that Deepwood was getting some changes after the Lammania tests, as announced by Steelstar.

Is this tree getting something new or maybe is it being discussed internally atm?

Thanks (:

[Alkusoittow]

No disrespect intended, but your math is very wrong again.

Here's the corrected version, comparing scimitar and khopesh. It matters to get this right, since the balance between khopesh and scimitar currently means that there is no reason to go dex-based on a tempest (~4 reflex is all you get, and lose about 10% damage).

Let R be total damage on a non-crit swing: ie 4.5[d6] + deadly + str mod + etc + etc....
Let S be seeker damage
Assuming 5[w] (4.5w TF + 0.25 boat +0.5 PA is already more. Increasing total W further favors khopesh)
Assuming hit on a 2 (requiring higher to-hits further favors the khopesh: lower rolls effectively dilute critical-dependence)
Assuming both overwhelming critical and devastating critical (again, removing these effectively favors khopesh)

Scimitar
2-14 x1, 15-18 x2, 19-20 x4
Total: 13R + 4 x2[R+S] + 2 x4[R+S]
= 29R + 16S


Khopesh does R+5 damage (1d8 vs 1d6, 5W)
2-16 x1, 17-18 x3, 19-20 x5
Total: 15(R+5) + 2 x3[R+5+S] + 2 x5[R+5+S]
= 31(R+5) + 16S

So even ignoring the increased base damage of khopesh: khopesh does 31/29 or about 7% more damage than scimitar. Including seeker as ~25% of total damage (ie R = 100, seeker = 25) makes that 6%.

If you assume the total physical damage R is about 100 (before melee power), then that 5 extra damage from 1d8 vs 1d6 (5W) is another 5%, for a total of about 12% more damage.

Khopesh is ahead at any damage mod, from lvl 1 onwards, and all the assumptions I have made are as favorable as possible for the scimitar.
I'm harping on this point because unless scimitars/light weapons are improved somehow in Tempest (or khopesh count as light weapons and therefore are viable with dex), dex-based is dead in the water.

Well, my math is actually correct, but I don't include all the additional factors that you're taking into account, and I'm not sure why you start with 4.5[d6] as a base... Also do you mean S is crit damage? You say seeker damage, which is normally just a bonus to crits before multipliers... Also PA adds 5 damage, not .5[W] (this is an ED feature you refer to).

But your point is still valid: khopesh is indeed ahead of scimitar for every level of the game, and is the original claim I've been trying to make. No matter how you slice it, scimitar will only ever try to close the gap, but will never reach it.

You can get additional saves via Dex build, and maybe have almost as much DPS as a khopesh-STR build, but never quite as much. The one strong advantage, though, is if you have some particularly useful crit-dependent abilities on your blades (blinding GS weapons come to mind). Have 6/20 chance to blind your opponent (and get sneak attack damage) is very handy and can certainly tip the balance the other way. I presume the same is true for thunderforged weapons, though I have yet to do a real analysis of those...

[Grailhawk]

But your point is still valid: khopesh is indeed ahead of scimitar for every level of the game, and is the original claim I've been trying to make. No matter how you slice it, scimitar will only ever try to close the gap, but will never reach it..

The exception to this is Thunderforged Tier 3 weapons with both Dragons Edge and Crippling Flames. Average of 299 damage per crit that is not multiplied by crit multiplier, this favored the longer crit threat ranger that scimitars/rapiers have. However a Khopesh can pull ahead with enough MP and +Damage (100 MP, 105 DMG or 150 MP, 85 DMG are two examples of when the Khopesh will pull ahead)

See this post for the math.

[Alkusoittow]

The exception to this is Thunderforged Tier 3 weapons with both Dragons Edge and Crippling Flames. Average of 299 damage per crit that is not multiplied by crit multiplier, this favored the longer crit threat ranger that scimitars/rapiers have. However a Khopesh can pull ahead with enough MP and +Damage (100 MP, 105 DMG or 150 MP, 85 DMG are two examples of when the Khopesh will pull ahead)

See this post for the math.

Yeah, I had mentioned that crit-only bonuses might change things, and your example shows that perfectly. Thanks for the link!

[Vargouille]

Here's our current thinking:



(Abilities in Orange cost 2 AP per rank.)

Core Abilities

• Shield of Whirling Steel: While dual wielding, 2 Shield bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating. This increases by +1 for each additional Tempest Core Ability you acquire. If you are a level 1 character, you gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat until you reach character level 2. (Two Weapon Fighting is granted permanently if you take a second Ranger level).
• Graceful Death: While you are dual wielding, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with light melee weapons, +5 Melee Power.
• Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike chance when dual wielding, +5 Melee Power, +5 Incorporeality (stacking).
• Dervish: Passive: +4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand when dual wielding. +10 Melee Power, Physical Resist Rating, and Magical Resist Rating while wearing light armor or cloth.

Tier One

• Improved Defense: Shield of Whirling Steel grants +1/2/3 Armor Class, Physical Resist, and Magical Resistance. If you possess Deflect Arrows it can trigger once every 4/3/2 seconds.
• Acrobatic: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump and Tumble. Rank 3: You gain +1 Reflex Saving Throws.
  
  • Removed: +2/+4/+6 Armor Class while tumbling.

Tier Three

• Critical Accuracy: Removed from tree, functionality combined into Critical Mastery.
• Critical Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.
• Storm Dancer: (2 AP) Stance: Absorb 15% of Electrical damage. Your melee attacks deal +1d6 Electrical damage. This damage scales 100% with Melee Power.

Tier Four

• Elaborate Parry: For the next 6/12/18 seconds, you gain Dodge, Maximum Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus to light armor, equal to your Dexterity Modifier. Cooldown: 90 seconds
• Critical Damage: Removed from tree, functionality combined into Critical Mastery.
• Storm Tempest: (2 AP) Passive. Upgrades Storm Dancer Electrical damage absorption to 30% (instead of 15%). Upgrades melee attacks to deal +2d6 Electrical damage (instead of 1d6).

Tier Five

• A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +15/+30/+45 doublestrike, +15/30/45 Melee Power, 15 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds.
  
  • Gives more room for beneficial Doublestrike from other abilities, increases basic damage, synergy with other abilities that scale with Melee Power, slightly reduces lag with lower Doublestrike.
  
  
• Dual Perfection: (2 AP) Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)
• Whirling Blades: (2 AP) +3 to hit and damage when dual wielding.

[Alkusoittow]

Capstone is still not enough, and by boosting the lvl 18 core, you encourage 18/2 builds. Pure ranger will still not be competitive...

Basically, ranger will be best for a STR based build of 18 Ranger, 2 (Fighter/Monk/Rogue/Barb/whatever), in LD. If you want high DPS... Every other ranger build will play second fiddle to this.

[Grailhawk]

Basically, ranger will be best for a STR based build of 18 Ranger, 2 (Fighter/Monk/Rogue/Barb/whatever), in LD. If you want high DPS... Every other ranger build will play second fiddle to this.

Please tell me what 2 level splash will get you more then 25% off-hand double strike (~12.5 Double strike total), 10 Melee Power, +10 PRR? With only a 1 AP cost (Tempest tier 5 + Core 18 costs more then 10 AP for the good stuff)

[HatsuharuZ]

I have only one issue with what you've just shown us, Vargouille...

I don't like having to choose between Haste Boost and Sprint Boost. It *is* a hard choice, but it's not the kind of choice I like to make. Saves vs. AC? Yes. Damage Boost vs. Haste Boost? Yes. Attack rate vs. Movement rate? No. Those are very different things... I'm not sure how to articulate it, but sprint boost and haste boost (for me) tend to be used at very different times.

If you do need some extra space, then the redundant "Whirling Blades" would be a good place to start. I would suggest removing the "Whirling Blades" from one of the lower tiers and combining it with the "Whirling Blades" from the fourth or fifth tiers.

[Alkusoittow]

Please tell me what 2 level splash will get you more then 25% off-hand double strike (~12.5 Double strike total), 10 Melee Power, +10 PRR? With only a 1 AP cost (Tempest tier 5 + Core 18 costs more then 10 AP for the good stuff)

If you're looking for exactly that, then you are not thinking critically. The point is that the trade off might be better than the pure ranger option. One example would be splashing 2 levels of monk:
+2 Feats
+4% dodge
+2 AC
+More sneak attack, dodge, etc from enhancements.
+Option to remain centered, etc
etc...

If you're building a feat starved toon, this might be much more appealing.

[ValariusK]

If you're looking for exactly that, then you are not thinking critically. The point is that the trade off might be better than the pure ranger option. One example would be splashing 2 levels of monk:
+2 Feats
+4% dodge
+2 AC
+More sneak attack, dodge, etc from enhancements.
+Option to remain centered, etc
etc...

If you're building a feat starved toon, this might be much more appealing.

One popular splash might be something like Cleric or Fvs-1 and Artificer or Rogue-1. Why? You'd get divine might cheap to add your charisma bonus to you strength, plus trapping.

[Grailhawk]

If you're looking for exactly that, then you are not thinking critically. The point is that the trade off might be better than the pure ranger option. One example would be splashing 2 levels of monk:
+2 Feats
+4% dodge
+2 AC
+More sneak attack, dodge, etc from enhancements.
+Option to remain centered, etc
etc...

If you're building a feat starved toon, this might be much more appealing.

Do you realize you did exactly what I asked for you found an example to try and prove 2 levels of monk give more power. I'm thinking very critically I'm looking for options that are better.

That said monk is not it.
Centered weapons limites you to Shortswords that means taking a crit multiplier or threat hit.
2 feats tell me what 2 feats can add that much MP,DS, or PRR
Monk also lowers PRR do to cloth armor

What 2 level splash can increase a characters level by as much as the tempest capstone can.

15/5 Paladin/Ranger is the only multiclass option a Tempest has right now but at 15 level of paladin that's not a ranger.

[Grailhawk]

One popular splash might be something like Cleric or Fvs-1 and Artificer or Rogue-1. Why? You'd get divine might cheap to add your charisma bonus to you strength, plus trapping.

Divine Might you think you can get enough Charisma to get as much DPS from that as 25% OH-DS and 10 MP also think you will need an extra AP that comes from something.

[Basura_Grande]

What 2 level splash can increase a characters level by as much as the tempest capstone can.

Possibly 2 barb for run speed and ear-smash, but that's questionable.

Definable nothing that can make you better at killing red/purple names.

[Kza]

Latest comments "prove" that the devs start to find the right balance. "Might" be better multiclassing, options, not 100% only one "best" way. Lovely in my book. It is very unfun if 20 capstone so extremely good multiclassing only will be for flavor.

For me personally multiclassing is the single most fun feature of dungeons and dragons. Thankfully that mindset is also in the developers to some degree :-)

[Basura_Grande]

Latest comments "prove" that the devs start to find the right balance. "Might" be better multiclassing, options, not 100% only one "best" way. Lovely in my book. It is very unfun if 20 capstone so extremely good multiclassing only will be for flavor.

For me personally multiclassing is the single most fun feature of dungeons and dragons. Thankfully that mindset is also in the developers to some degree :-)

25% off-hand and 10 MP is so good you don't have a better option.

Rangers are a versatile class, they have heals, evasion, and bow use built in. You can splash for trap-skills if you really want to but that's worth next to nothing at end-game, especially since you can't walk 5 feet without tripping over a mechanic these days.

[Arlathen]

Ok, more feedback:

Here's our current thinking:

<SNIP>

Core Abilities

• Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike chance when dual wielding, +5 Melee Power, +5 Incorporeality (stacking).

Tier Three

• Storm Dancer: (2 AP) Stance: Absorb 15% of Electrical damage. Your melee attacks deal +1d6 Electrical damage. This damage scales 100% with Melee Power.

Tier Four

• Storm Tempest: (2 AP) Passive. Upgrades Storm Dancer Electrical damage absorption to 30% (instead of 15%). Upgrades melee attacks to deal +2d6 Electrical damage (instead of 1d6).

Tier Five

• A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +15/+30/+45 doublestrike, +15/30/45 Melee Power, 15 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds.
  
  • Gives more room for beneficial Doublestrike from other abilities, increases basic damage, synergy with other abilities that scale with Melee Power, slightly reduces lag with lower Doublestrike

Whirlwind: Is this actually that much of a Defensive increase? Because it's not the 5% being advertised, really.

Assuming:

• Running Displacement through DM, Scroll or Item clicky
• Only has enough AC to be missed when the mob rolls a 1
• Has a standing 15% Dodge
• Has a 10% Incorporeal item equipped
• = 1 *0.5 *0.95 * 0.85 * 0.9 = 0.36 or 36% chance to be hit per attack directed at the Ranger
• = 1 *0.5 *0.95 * 0.85 * 0.85 = 0.34 or 34% chance to be hit.

In this a-typical example its worth 2%, or 2 attacks out of 100 directed at the Ranger will now miss. A 10% Bonus would make a more significant contribution to defense.

Storm Dancer / Storm Tempest: I still think these scale poorly into Epic Levels, and need to contribute more to base line DPS. I heavily recommend you gain additional base dice through core enhancements and/or increase the melee power scaling to Sneak Attack similar levels.

A Thousand Cuts: It's powerful, sure, but it's so opportunistic it won't get used as often as what paper theory can show. Not to mention the 'I've gone and whiffed the attack' and have to wait an agonising 90s for the boost to come off cooldown again. Infuriating.

With an appropriate downscale of the benefits, I'd like to see this heavily reduced in cooldown alongside a an adjustment to the duration.

So currently, 15s/90s is roughly 17% uptime. If duration was doubled and the bonus subsequently halved, it could be activated for 15s out of every 45s (or even further to a much more pro-active 10s out of every 30s) for approximately half the current benefit (22.5% MP/DS).

You could even round off the 2.5% and further increase duration by approximately 11%, leaving you at 12s uptime for 30s cooldown with a 20% Melee Power / Doublestrike bonus when the enhancement is taken at rank 3.

If the enhancement pass stays as it is now, I guarantee you that the one thing moaned about as a 'Quality of Life' issue with the enhancement tree is that "A Thousand Cuts is nice when it actually hits, but I whiff too much and it needs a cooldown reduction".

Overall DPS: Waiting on Lammaland to come back up again, but I will find it interesting to test these changes out against some real EE questing instead of the 30 minutes of Kobold Boss bashing I got to do. I was polling times of around 28-30s a Kobold Boss, running a STR-based Khopesh Tempest running in Legendary Dreadnought.

[Seikojin]

Please tell me what 2 level splash will get you more then 25% off-hand double strike (~12.5 Double strike total), 10 Melee Power, +10 PRR? With only a 1 AP cost (Tempest tier 5 + Core 18 costs more then 10 AP for the good stuff)

Well, that is the reason it is a capstone. To reward the pure 20 devotion.

Now if you want to do 18/2 as a ranger, you are going rogue or arty for traps... Plain and simple. Or 1/1 fighter and rogue for free feats and trapping.

Now asking what capstone is as compelling as Dervish? Well all that depends on the use of that capstone. The +4 stat is becoming that standard feature in capstones (good), and they are adding considerable draws in those capstones (great), however they are focusing on the specific design of that tree (greater), so if someone desires more utility then they have to make that hard call. MC and lose those cores, or stay pure and lose those utilities.

MC should not be the definitive way to play ddo. Pure should not be the definitive way to play ddo. How you want your build to perform should be the way to play ddo.

I see dervish as a great capstone, but not one that is going to make all my rangers pure and take it.