U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[Gremmlynn]

DPS is decent, but is lower than a swashbuckler... the cap of tempest needs a boost. In my opinion, a pure tempest ranger should definitely be doing more DPS than a bard, so perhaps add the following:

You now treat Khopeshs as if they were light melee weapons.

Or bastard swords.

Reasoning:
You're already allowing Scimitar's to be treated as light weapons (2nd core), but they do the same damage as a rapier (a light weapon). Doesn't seem to be a point (other than trading slashing for pierce). Anyway, you've already broken the seal when it comes to adding additional weapons to the Dex build outside of "light" weapons.

Secondly, tempest needs a DPS boost. Adding khopesh or bastard sword accomplishes that, but not at an outrageous level.
-You need to be pure Ranger, so you can't enhance it with any Kensei abilities.
-Many would take exotic weapon proficiency, thus trading off something else, creating some kind of balance

Alternatively, change it to:
You now treat longswords as if they were light melee weapons.

The DPS is lower than khopesh or BS, but higher than scimitars/rapiers/etc. Can't be combined with any monk-like abilities (i.e. whirling steel strike, centered bonus, etc) because you are pure Ranger. But, you get a nice DPS boost as a bonus for staying pure.

Khopesh/BS: Adds a lot more DPS, requires a potential feat trade off
Longsword: Adds DPS, but not as much. Does not require feat.

Either of those would make Tempest and Pure Ranger much more appetizing.

Actually, rapiers, while being finesse-able weapons, are not light weapons.

Also, how do you see long swords are being better DPS than scimitars outside of extremely high fort mobs? Even bastard swords would be a worse choice most of the time due to dual wielding not allowing for glancing blows with them.

[Alkusoittow]

Actually, rapiers, while being finesse-able weapons, are not light weapons.

Also, how do you see long swords are being better DPS than scimitars outside of extremely high fort mobs? Even bastard swords would be a worse choice most of the time due to dual wielding not allowing for glancing blows with them.

Actually, rapiers are considered light blades (in DDO). I can't speak for PNP...

From Kensei:
"Kensei Focus: Light Blades: You focus your Kensei training in the use of light blades. You gain +1 to hit with daggers, kukri, rapiers, shortswords, and throwing daggers."

(They weight 2lbs, same as a short sword, etc)

Longswords do 1d8, with x2 crit 19-20.
Scimitars do 1d6, with x2 crit 18-20.

Since most people will likely use Thunderforged weapons, look at this chart:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Thunder_Forge/weapon_chart

Bastard Sword: BDR 30.80
Longsword: 26.95
Scimitar: 24.15
Rapier: 24.15

That's nearly a 12% increase over scimitar for longswords, and almost 28% more for BS.

There are no glancing blows from two weapon fighting anyway, regardless of weapon choice. BS was picked because of its high DPS for a single handed weapon. (Same with Khopesh, which some people prefer because of its crit profile)

[Axeyu]

Since most people will likely use Thunderforged weapons, look at this chart:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Thunder_Forge/weapon_chart

Bastard Sword: BDR 30.80
Longsword: 26.95
Scimitar: 24.15
Rapier: 24.15

That's nearly a 12% increase over scimitar for longswords, and almost 28% more for BS.

BDR has no useful meaning though.

[Lurzifer]

Just give Tempest Capstone Monkey Grip. We dont need Crit enhancements then

[HuneyMunster]

Improvements are nice, but nothing special. And it’s not balance with other reworked classes.
IMO too much active abilities and too less passive abilities. Almost no support for light weapons, especially scimitars as great option to Khopesh, if they already light weapon with Core 6.

Instead of adding more weapon types or improved crit profiles level 18 or 20 core could add a further 10% offhand attack chance to bring it up to 100% compared to other classes with 80% and 90% for monks.

- Deflect Arrows (Core 12) – While most Devs thinks that Deflect Arrow feat is great ability, most players don’t. Maybe this Core ability need some love? Something that will improve offhand weapons if it’s light (for scimitar support). Something like +5% double strike to offhand if it’s light weapon.

I think deflect arrows is an underrated feat especially as Tempest can get a 2 second cooldown. A single archer will usually never hit you with 2 sec cooldown, while in areas where there are swarms of archer that its a fair bit of damage reduction over time. Also can prevent a legshot from hampering your movability.

- Improved Dodge/ Improved Mobility – Consider drop feat requirement. There is no need to force players to take that feats, if they want this ability.

Dodge and Mobility are still good feats for a Tempest to get and along with Spring Attack are free if you allow for the TWF feats they get for free. The 7 dodge from those 3 feat is greater than the 6 dodge a rogue gets from from the passive part of Imp Uncanny Dodge and Bard from Uncanny dodge. I would prefer them to remain with the 3rd tier of Improved mobility granting Spring Attack feat.

- Elaborate Parry – Redesign to panic button. Nice, but very long cooldown.

At cap on a well built character 68-70 dex with just ship buffs is achievable which gives 29-30 dodge when active. This is 4-5 higher than a Bard uncanny dodge with a shorter cooldown of 90sec compared to 120sec, but 20-21 lower than Rogue with Imp Uncanny. Difference is Elaborate Parry is a lot more item and tome intensive than uncanny dodge and less effective at lower levels and for under geared characters.

[sjbb87]

Instead of adding more weapon types or improved crit profiles level 18 or 20 core could add a further 10% offhand attack chance to bring it up to 100% compared to other classes with 80% and 90% for monks.

Tempest: You gain +10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding. While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.

Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat while dual wielding, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. You also gain an additional 10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding.
Note: Does not work with handwraps.

[Alkusoittow]

BDR has no useful meaning though.

You're joking, right?

[MrWindupBird]

You're joking, right?

He is correct: BDR tells you precisely nothing. It would be better if it didn't exist: it just confuses people.

IE your statement that a longsword is better than a scimitar. Other things being equal, it is most emphatically not: the expanded crit range is worth far more than +1d8 vs 1d6.

[Axeyu]

You're joking, right?

No I'm not.
Do you really believe that bastard swords deal 28% more damage than scimitars and rapiers? That is obviously wrong. On that chart bastard sword is even ahead of khopesh. Why isn't everyone using bastard swords instead of khopeshes then? Are we all just wrong?

Your cited BDR list will look completely different if you add any base damage and crit modifiers. You cannot use BDR to compare weapon types, it's far too incomplete.
I think the only reason it's even there is to give people who are used to a DPS score on their weapons a sense of familiarity.

[HuneyMunster]

Tempest: You gain +10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding. While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.

Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat while dual wielding, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. You also gain an additional 10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding.
Note: Does not work with handwraps.

I've never noticed before that Deflect Arrows already brought offhand up to 100%.

[PsychoBlonde]

I liked having deflect arrows added. It was nice to see it proccing fairly often.

Yeah, in my experience deflect arrows is underrated. Archers are ubiquitous and can nibble a lot of health away. I've never regretted using a feat on it.

[Alkusoittow]

He is correct: BDR tells you precisely nothing. It would be better if it didn't exist: it just confuses people.

IE your statement that a longsword is better than a scimitar. Other things being equal, it is most emphatically not: the expanded crit range is worth far more than +1d8 vs 1d6.

Ok, let's analyze this empirically. If what you (and others) say is true, we ought to be able to show it explicitly. I have created the following comparison for base weapons, "other things being equal."


The bottom 4 rows are average damage per swing.

Keep in mind, I assume 1 is a miss so I do not include it in the calculations. Based on simple base damage, BS comes out on top. Based on changing crit range (Improved Critical Feat, etc), it's still on top. Based on crit modifiers, it's still on top. Based on both, it's still on top.....

Also, longsword still comes out ahead of rapier and scimitar every time.

To keep this focused, let's discuss:
scimitar vs (Longsword/Khopesh/BS)

Not khopesh vs BS vs Longsword.

How could a scimitar really compete, all things being equal? What crit-based enhancements/modifiers make it more worthwhile, in your opinion? I'll add them to the calculation and we'll see what's best!

[mezzorco]

Ok, let's analyze this empirically. If what you (and others) say is true, we ought to be able to show it explicitly. I have created the following comparison for base weapons, "other things being equal."


The bottom 4 rows are average damage per swing.

Keep in mind, I assume 1 is a miss so I do not include it in the calculations. Based on simple base damage, BS comes out on top. Based on changing crit range (Improved Critical Feat, etc), it's still on top. Based on crit modifiers, it's still on top. Based on both, it's still on top.....

Also, longsword still comes out ahead of rapier and scimitar every time.

To keep this focused, let's discuss:
scimitar vs (Longsword/Khopesh/BS)

Not khopesh vs BS vs Longsword.

How could a scimitar really compete, all things being equal? What crit-based enhancements/modifiers make it more worthwhile, in your opinion? I'll add them to the calculation and we'll see what's best!

In this test you have supposed a strength of 10, no deadly items, no bonus damage at all.
Those things scale with critical profile. If you still do not believe it, do the math again.

EDIT: I did it for you, just with 50 STR and nothing else (no deadly, no enhancements...)

[Axeyu]

How could a scimitar really compete, all things being equal? What crit-based enhancements/modifiers make it more worthwhile, in your opinion? I'll add them to the calculation and we'll see what's best!

Add more base damage.

[Alkusoittow]

In this test you have supposed a strength of 10, no deadly items, no bonus damage at all.
Those things scale with critical profile. If you still do not believe it, do the math again.

I added:
Enhancement Bonus +10
Deadly +10
Stat Modifier of +30 (for a STR/DEX build of 70)
Power Attack (+5)



I might have to plot some lines and see where these numbers intersect...

But anyway, the rapier/scimitar is much closer, but the Khopesh is still on top.

[sjbb87]

I added:
Enhancement Bonus +10
Deadly +10
Stat Modifier of +30 (for a STR/DEX build of 70)
Power Attack (+5)



I might have to plot some lines and see where these numbers intersect...

But anyway, the rapier/scimitar is indeed on top in this configuration. !

Now compare:
Kukri = 15 ~ 20 x4 of rogues
ax: 19 ~ 20 x6 of the barbarians
Rapier: 15 ~ 20 x3 Bards
Light Pick: 17 ~ 20 x4 of the bards

Khopesh: 17 ~ 20 x3 ranger
Scimitar: 15 ~ 20 x2 ranger

Some useful data

* Temporary buff or a special case



Skirmisher bard

if
dashing Scoundrel
+10 doublestrike
and 4 more damage

[Alkusoittow]

I just redid the plot. The khopesh is still on top. I neglected to remove the normal hits when accounting for the extended crit range. New plot is up (in my previous post), and khopesh is still on top, but it's close. If you have crit-based features on the weapon, it might be worthwhile to go scimitar/rapier, but only at end-game. I'm figuring out how much extra damage is necessary to make it worthwhile to switch.

[J-mann]

I just redid the plot. The khopesh is still on top. I neglected to remove the normal hits when accounting for the extended crit range. New plot is up (in my previous post), and khopesh is still on top, but it's close. If you have crit-based features on the weapon, it might be worthwhile to go scimitar/rapier, but only at end-game. I'm figuring out how much extra damage is necessary to make it worthwhile to switch.

You are also missing seeker. Add in seeker, see how much larger your larger crit range weapons pull ahead of your base die weapons. For example my current build has seeker +24 at cap (I think)

[Alkusoittow]

You are also missing seeker. Add in seeker, see how much larger your larger crit range weapons pull ahead of your base die weapons. For example my current build has seeker +24 at cap (I think)

Why not? We've come this far! I have a +10 seeker with +2 exc seeker (tot +12). As far as I'm aware, the max you can get is +15, unless there's something else I'm unaware of...?



Khopesh still on top, though only marginally. BS and LS are way behind. Gonna plot this vs bonus damage. My guess is rapiers and scimitars approach khopesh damage at level 25+ only.

[ValariusK]

Here are some tests for Lam that would be good to run.

I suspect the best build for dex-based is going to use Ballizarde (30%/3x crit profile for a ranger). It is a rapier so improved weapon focus gets dex to damage on it since it is eligible for finesse. Maybe ballizarde dual wielded with Rebellion (30%/2x) with improved deception.
Strength based has other options. Deathnips (20%/4x), TF Khopesh (20%/3x), even oathblade at level 20 and epic elemental khopesh are nice at low epics.

Anyone game to run a damage test or three with DC or LD?