U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[maddong]

I really like the tempest changes. They open up a lot of build options and there is still incentive to go pure.

I'd consider swapping core 3 and core 6 so that dex builds can get dex to damage earlier without the DWS tree.

This makes it easier for a dex based build to get their dex to damage earlier (and makes it consistent with assassins, acrobats, and ninjas getting it at their 3 core).

That makes the 10% offhand harder to get (consistent with moving the 2nd bonus from 12 to 18). This also nerfs the paladin 15/ranger 5 by 10% of an attack per swing bringing it more in line with a pure ranger in DPS.

[Arlathen]

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes:

= Core Abilities =
Graceful Death (requires 6 class levels)
Removed: 5 Melee Power

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Whirlwind (requires 18 class levels)
Added: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding
Removed: 5 Melee Power

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: +2/3/4% Melee Power and 2/3/4 Doublestrike.

In broad terms, I really like these changes, and complement the new changes from Steel for DWS.

ATC will divide opinions on which one to take and which one is best, but personally, I think the choice would stand out more if the passive Many Cuts was changed to 1/2/3% Doublestrike and 1/2/3% Offhand Doublestrike. I'm not sure how this affects the math (possible to its detriment, making the active attack a little more attractive?), but more offhand doublestrike should be the real hallmark of this tree.

And a final plea to think about buffing the Electrical Damage. I love that theme, and would dearly love to see this scale just a little better than 2D6 +100%MP.

PS Thanks for the earlier instruction over Incorporeal-ness. Still learning things after playing the game since 2008.

[Mindos]

It may be quite some time, but we've had some early discussions about such things. (The recent kobolds on Lamannia were a haphazard introduction to something we're still fleshing out and investigating.)

1 million HP is interesting, so are seeing how fast you can kill 5-10 100,000 (since group/AoE DPS is a pretty big deal in a lot of real gameplay, if you are going for overall DPS/quest times).

Are we testing with dual Celestia's? How does dual wielding them compare before and after the crit changes? I ask because celestia has such a large amount of weapon effect that benefits TWF.

[Requiro]

Dual Perfection still not working. I hope that they solved the problem before tomorrow update.

[sjbb87]

= Tier 5 =
A Thousand Cuts
* Reduced such that Tier 3 becomes: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +5[W] damage. You gain +30% Melee Doublestrike, +30 Melee Power for 15 seconds.


Thinking about here, could adjust to Whirlwind to a total of 10%
* New Multiple choice option: Many Cuts: 0/1/2% Melee Power and 1/3/5 Doublestrike.

Would be a synergy way Whirlwind

[Grailhawk]

Dual Perfection still not working. I hope that they solved the problem before tomorrow update.

I'm pretty sure that's just a display bug but will double check.

[DevilYouKnow]

Dual Perfection still not working. I hope that they solved the problem before tomorrow update.

It is just a display error. I tested it together with varg myself.

[Seikojin]

We think it's still easily worth the AP spent on it.



KookieKobold has a stamp which says, QA Approved.

... I have another stamp which declares, By Design.



^{(No, we don't actually use paper much, but that's not the point!)}

Nice! Pics or it didn't happen

I love both of those. It is NSFW what I would do when I saw closed by design for my tenure at MS. It did deliver laughs though.

[Seikojin]

Just a reminder. I think you forgot 6mp from harper. It also says it keeps exploit weakness and the Crit profile is still wrong (should be +4 on 19-20). Finally I don't see reign added to vorpal effects (remember vorpal is 19-20 on that build).

In any case forgive me if you added it but just not to the presentation sheet and it's somehow in the background.

Now I'd like to know what numbers the devs run to claim ranger is so far ahead of bard.

When they frst put the kobolds and tempest changes in, I logged in with my pure bard swash and beat down a few kobolds in a few different configurations. The lowest time I could get (not instant killing) with my swash was 23-25 seconds for 100k.

TR'd that toon into a pure ranger and was able to get with pure melee 20 seconds for 100k. Same gear as the bard. Changed the gear up a bit and could get it to 19 seconds. If I did 14/6 pali ranger, I can get it to 17. I am sure those who swap between ranged and melee will do better.

[BigErkyKid]

When they frst put the kobolds and tempest changes in, I logged in with my pure bard swash and beat down a few kobolds in a few different configurations. The lowest time I could get (not instant killing) with my swash was 23-25 seconds for 100k.

TR'd that toon into a pure ranger and was able to get with pure melee 20 seconds for 100k. Same gear as the bard. Changed the gear up a bit and could get it to 19 seconds. If I did 14/6 pali ranger, I can get it to 17. I am sure those who swap between ranged and melee will do better.

No offense but have you considered it is your build that might be off?

People using swash tend to forget that it is becomes a defensive build if you spend too much in swash (to capstone). Try the war chanter / swash variations I have sketched here. Axeyu increased his dps calcs for bard quite a bit using them.

I have been traveling so unfortunately I couldn't go to lama to do it myself.

[bbqzor]

Just wanted to chime in to repeat something mentioned which is insightful.

Making 1KC apply offhand doublestrike is probably the best balance solution to use here, since it is T5 and that is a hallmark of the class/tree. It also differentiates it vs regular action boosts which otherwise compare directly.

I would change it to +1/2/3 W, +10/20/30 Melee Power, +10/20/30 Doublestrike, +3/6/9 Offhand Doublestrike. Then Passive, +1/2/3 MP, +1/2/3 Doublestrike, +1/2/3 Offhand Doublestrike.

The passive is ~10% of the active. And the active is only up 15/90 seconds at most, or 16% of the time. So the passive is 2/3rds the active (in rough easy-maths)... but the active is on when you need it most.

I like the idea of using the tree-specific offhand doublestrike to tie the T5 with the Capstone, to make 1kC stand out from regular boosts, and to keep the passive numbers relevant without needing to make them large individually.

Thanks to posters for the idea and to the devs for reading. Even with different numbers, the idea is probably the best treatment here for a good, unique, and appealing thing instead of just "more of the same" which it has kind of turned into.

[Tilomere]

del

[JOTMON]

If you are comparing SWF and TWF attack speeds, please remember to count offhand attacks as additional.

SWF can and should receive more general attack speed than TWF, because TWF generally gets 80% more attacks than SWF, taking only the Feats themselves into account

Feat Bonuses
SWF: +30% attack speed, producing +~30% more hits
TWF: +80% hits

TWF gets lots of hits. It is the king of hits against single targets. (The discussion does get more complicated when you start talking about AoE - Cleaves or Tempest/Dance of Death, etc.)

Well, taking only the feats into consideration...

2+ feats
SWF you gain +10% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.
~Unlike the 3.5 PnP version of this feat, your weapon of choice is not limited to light weapons.

GSWF Your Single Weapon Fighting bonus is increased to a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and an additional +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power, for a total of +6 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. You now apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage

PSWF While Single Weapon Fighting, your vorpal threat range is increased by +1 (instead of scoring Vorpal hits only on a roll of 20, you score them on a roll of 19-20, assuming you confirm the critical hit.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3+ Feats and a minimum Dexterity requirement. (Rangers just get them as class included feats, but they are still feats regardless)

20% offhand-Two Weapon Fighting (The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6, so it becomes -4 (main hand) / -4 (off-hand).. ( -6/-10 without this feat).
20% offhand-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
20% offhand-Greater Two Weapon Fighting
PTWF +5% Doublestrike , +10% Offhand Doublestrike

Also to help reduce the penalty for two weapon fighting...
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (attack penalty down to -2/-2. )

..TWF gets a negative to attack just for wielding two weapons no increase in speed from feats, just increased chance to proc an off hand attack. then has to work their way to break even for two weapons.
and
..SWF 150% damage and 30% stacking attack speed with any weapon

~snip~
TWF gets lots of hits. It is the king of hits against single targets. (The discussion does get more complicated when you start talking about AoE - Cleaves or Tempest/Dance of Death, etc.)

How does tempest beat an insta-kill?
Coup de Grace: Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack: Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly

[DevilYouKnow]

Well, taking only the feats into consideration...

2+ feats
SWF you gain +10% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. Requires fighting with a single one-handed weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.
~Unlike the 3.5 PnP version of this feat, your weapon of choice is not limited to light weapons.

GSWF Your Single Weapon Fighting bonus is increased to a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and an additional +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power, for a total of +6 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. You now apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage

PSWF While Single Weapon Fighting, your vorpal threat range is increased by +1 (instead of scoring Vorpal hits only on a roll of 20, you score them on a roll of 19-20, assuming you confirm the critical hit.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3+ Feats and a minimum Dexterity requirement. (Rangers just get them as class included feats, but they are still feats regardless)

20% offhand-Two Weapon Fighting (The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6, so it becomes -4 (main hand) / -4 (off-hand).. ( -6/-10 without this feat).
20% offhand-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
20% offhand-Greater Two Weapon Fighting
PTWF +5% Doublestrike , +10% Offhand Doublestrike

Also to help reduce the penalty for two weapon fighting...
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (attack penalty down to -2/-2. )

..TWF gets a negative to attack just for wielding two weapons no increase in speed from feats, just increased chance to proc an off hand attack. then has to work their way to break even for two weapons.
and
..SWF 150% damage and 30% stacking attack speed with any weapon





How does tempest beat an insta-kill?
Coup de Grace: Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack: Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly

Uhm, you want tempest to have a insta kill as well ? This is hilarious and sad at the same time...

[salmag]

Uhm, you want tempest to have a insta kill as well ? This is hilarious and sad at the same time...

vs. Favored Enemies -> I would've made the Deepwood Stalker Tire 5 Head Shot an insta kill; not in Tempest.

[Lonnbeimnech]

vs. Favored Enemies -> I would've made the Deepwood Stalker Tire 5 Head Shot an insta kill; not in Tempest.

In pathfinder

A ranger of 20th level becomes a master hunter. He can always move at full speed while using Survival to follow tracks without penalty. He can, as a standard action, make a single attack against a favored enemy at his full attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target takes damage normally and must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the ranger's level + the ranger's Wisdom modifier. A ranger can choose instead to deal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the creature's current hit points. A successful save negates this damage. A ranger can use this ability once per day against each favored enemy type he possesses, but not against the same creature more than once in a 24-hour perio

[salmag]

In pathfinder

A ranger of 20th level becomes a master hunter. He can always move at full speed while using Survival to follow tracks without penalty. He can, as a standard action, make a single attack against a favored enemy at his full attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target takes damage normally and must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the ranger's level + the ranger's Wisdom modifier. A ranger can choose instead to deal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the creature's current hit points. A successful save negates this damage. A ranger can use this ability once per day against each favored enemy type he possesses, but not against the same creature more than once in a 24-hour perio

That works.

[JOTMON]

Uhm, you want tempest to have a insta kill as well ? This is hilarious and sad at the same time...

Huh? Stop making stuff up. that's not what I said.
I would prefer you keep your post hijacking and derailments to yourself.

Varg said..

TWF gets lots of hits. It is the king of hits against single targets. (The discussion does get more complicated when you start talking about AoE - Cleaves or Tempest/Dance of Death, etc.)

I was pointing out that Swashbuckler has an insta-kill at T5.. so against single targets how does "Tempest Cleaves or Tempest/Dance of Death" make Tempest the "king of hits"
Tempest is more of a horny rabbit of attacks..

..and..cleaves?? against single targets??

[sjbb87]

What I ask, it's bring light weapon users close (but not better) to khopesh, as an option - just like Bard in Swashbuckling reduce big difference with other weapons.

Since you did not understand, let me translate

Coments in Color

Still nothing extra for light weapon users (maybe in Core 20? T5?)

No?
Already get for free

You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.
It's for Scimitars users not light weapon users.

Scimitar turns on light weapons, then yes it is an extra for light weapons.

While you are dual wielding, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with light melee weapons
Yes, this is the only one ability. That's why I ask for something extra.

Nop is not only.

Dervish: Passive: +4 Dexterity Meaningless.
+4 Dexterity= +2 hit and damage to light weapons (remember? Dexterity modifier for damage with light weapons )


Elaborate Parry: For the next 6/12/18 seconds, you gain Dodge, Maximum Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus to light armor, equal to your Dexterity Modifier

Here is nothing for light weapon users
remember? Dexterity modifier for damage with light weapons... More Dexterity, more damage,more Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus while Elaborate Parry.

more AC same here
remember? Dexterity modifier for damage with light weapons

More HP(Do not waste points into strength) and here
remember? Dexterity modifier for damage with light weapons

more reflex and here
remember? Dexterity modifier for damage with light weapons

I think ... Just think .... which has several bonus for those using light weapon

[Thar]

Since you did not understand, let me translate




I think ... Just think .... which has several bonus for those using light weapon

doesn't make up for the difference between str user and khopesh with stacking rages, destiny upgrads to str etc. What extra temp dex effects or spells do we have? something should have been added for light weapons to boost them up. i was always a proponent of adding speed to make those feel different, not extra(w). had a long post about this years ago.