U28 Lamannia - Ranger: Tempest Feedback

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i really really wish rangers got more offhand double strike and some stacking alacrity. adding to the crit profile just seems like a bad idea, considering that it doesnt make rangers any more different or interesting than 15/5 pally, and if holy sword gets nerfed then the proposed crit buff for rangers might become too strong. bigger crits also just really doesnt strike me as very tempest-y... oh well. cave in to the peer pressure now, just dont do drugs, those kids arent cool.

i think its a very good decision to make 1k cuts a passive, buff micro management is the least fun part of this game despite how important it is. i think its even better that you are making it a multiselector which rewards dealing with the pain of mini buffs.

[maddong]

Deflect Arrows (requires 12 class levels)
Added: Grants both weapons +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding.
Removed: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding.

8 fighter/12 ranger will be a decent breakdown if you want holy sword equivalent....

Hopefully my math is right.

But something like 12 tempest core/tier 5 ravager in LD will get:
15-20/x4 generic warhammers (90% crit damage)
11-20/x3 phosphor (100% crit damage)
15-20/x5 nightforge hammer (120% crit damage)
13-20/x4 coronation/drow warhammer/mornh (120% crit damage)

In comparison deathknips on a paladin is 15-20/x5 (120% crit damage) or 13-20/x5 (150% crit damage) in DC.
I think I prefer to run in LD though which makes the tempest/ravager desirable (although the gain doesn't kick in until epics).

Does this coincide with deciding not to nerf holy sword then?
I think we need to know what the holy sword nerf is going to be when talking about class balance.....

[Thar]

8 fighter/12 ranger will be a decent breakdown if you want holy sword equivalent....

Hopefully my math is right.

But something like 12 tempest core/tier 5 ravager in LD will get:
15-20/x4 generic warhammers (90% crit damage)
11-20/x3 phosphor (100% crit damage)
15-20/x5 nightforge hammer (120% crit damage)
13-20/x4 coronation/drow warhammer/mornh (120% crit damage)

In comparison deathknips on a paladin is 15-20/x5 (120% crit damage) or 13-20/x5 (150% crit damage) in DC.
I think I prefer to run in LD though which makes the tempest/ravager desirable (although the gain doesn't kick in until epics).

Does this coincide with deciding not to nerf holy sword then?
I think we need to know what the holy sword nerf is going to be when talking about class balance.....

I have no knowledge of the PALLY nerf, but i'd suspect the crit range will be removed. This should insight the pally community to yell for some changes to DOS as that tree like tempest is very expensive with little practical benefit with most enhancements for AC. that tree got little improvement in the pass. KOTC and vanguard were the primary goals. if you don't want them to hit stuff hard, then give some defense to the class.

[DevilYouKnow]

I have no knowledge of the nerf, but i'd suspect the crit range will be removed. This should insight the pally community to yell for some changes to DOS as that tree like tempest is very expensive with little practical benefit with most enhancements for AC. that tree got little improvement in the pass. KOTC and vanguard were the primary goals. if you don't want them to hit stuff hard, then give some defense to the class.

If that happens, then i had suggest removing the +10% offhand chance and + 25 % offhand doublestrike from tempest core 18/20 otherwise rangers will be strictly better in regards to dps, which should not be the goal. And don't forget that making 12 ranger (tempest) 5 barbarian (ravager) 3 x with pulverizer from dreadnought will probably be better than the current holy sword as well. I don' t see a reason for nerfing this at all now.

[DevilYouKnow]

i really really wish rangers got more offhand double strike and some stacking alacrity. adding to the crit profile just seems like a bad idea, considering that it doesnt make rangers any more different or interesting than 15/5 pally, and if holy sword gets nerfed then the proposed crit buff for rangers might become too strong. bigger crits also just really doesnt strike me as very tempest-y... oh well. cave in to the peer pressure now, just dont do drugs, those kids arent cool.

i think its a very good decision to make 1k cuts a passive, buff micro management is the least fun part of this game despite how important it is. i think its even better that you are making it a multiselector which rewards dealing with the pain of mini buffs.

You can get +1 multilpier from tempest core, +2 threat range from crit rage including the Single best healing source blood strength and +2 additonal threat range from ld pulverizer. This is obviously better than the current holy sword spell. Nerfing/touching Holy sword will make paladin builds 100% gimp.

[Basura_Grande]

You can get +1 multilpier from tempest core, +2 threat range from crit rage including the Single best healing source blood strength and +2 additonal threat range from ld pulverizer. This is obviously better than the current holy sword spell. Nerfing/touching Holy sword will make paladin builds 100% gimp.

Not that those are great build choices, bu yeah. If the tempest I played on Lamania goes live no pally nerfs are needed

[MrWindupBird]

i really really wish rangers got more offhand double strike and some stacking alacrity. adding to the crit profile just seems like a bad idea, considering that it doesnt make rangers any more different or interesting than 15/5 pally, and if holy sword gets nerfed then the proposed crit buff for rangers might become too strong. bigger crits also just really doesnt strike me as very tempest-y... oh well. cave in to the peer pressure now, just dont do drugs, those kids arent cool.

i think its a very good decision to make 1k cuts a passive, buff micro management is the least fun part of this game despite how important it is. i think its even better that you are making it a multiselector which rewards dealing with the pain of mini buffs.

Kind of agree with this, especially the flavor that tempest is an attack-speed tree, not a crit-dependent tree. However, that said latest changes look pretty ok to me. Especially gratified that scimitars/rapiers will be competitive with khopesh again: getting sick of using my khopeshes.

I suspect the trade of +1 crit mult for 10 MP may put tempest on top of paladin in the DPS arms race now though- will have to see. Likely just behind barb and rogue.

There's a huge amount of bad math and testing from the community in the thread: did all of you who are complaining even try to make a solid 20 tempest? It absolutely was better than Swashbuckler on the current lamma build, even without a crit multiplier. There's no question of this. I think aiming for paladin DPS is the right target, and on current Lamma it felt maybe a bit short, but quite close.

Also what on earth are people complaining about defenses for. You realize that there's now ~44 PRR available in Tempest and Stalker? Light armor was fine before the changes, if you arent able to survive that's a keyboard problem.

I'm not acting as an apologist for Vargouille/Turbine here, but I'm annoyed by bad math/bad faith posts.

[Grailhawk]

Not that those are great build choices, bu yeah. If the tempest I played on Lamania goes live no pally nerfs are needed

I don't think a "nerf" is needed but the distribution of power needs to be adjusted. IMO having so much of the power in one level 4 spells is kind of lopsided.

[DevilYouKnow]

I don't think a "nerf" is needed but the distribution of power needs to be adjusted. IMO having so much of the power in one level 4 spells is kind of lopsided.

No it does not. Can you stop complaining already ? Seriously, this is starting to get annyoing...

[DevilYouKnow]

If you change holy sword in any way it will end up in a nerf to paladins plus further hurt multiclassing. Tempest got enough power now with the extra miltiplier. For gods sake leave paladins alone already.

[MrWindupBird]

I forgot my constructive criticism earlier.

A useful spell beyond ram's might would be good.

Changing lvl4 Longstrider, Mass to provide +15% self running speed: bam, useful.

Likewise, something from Wild Instincts: circumstance bonus to attack, or reflex saves, or anything at all other than spot/listen.

Its predominantly flavor, but having a dull and useless spellbook beyond level 1just feels depressing.

Another possibility: add a level 4 spell which effectively summons a reskinned Eidolon Stalker for a short duration, ie 60 secs, 3min cooldown. No DPS, but a very effective aggro magnet. Situationally quite useful.

[BigErkyKid]

New calcs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...T9gENrPV-b2l4/


Builds:
20 ranger
15 pal /5 ranger
20 pal
20 bard
20 pal vanguard/defender
20 barb
And I also added a pure ranger and a 15 pal / 5 ranger with my idea of +1 crit multiplier instead of Dual Perfection.

All are in LD.

PM for an edit link, I'm sure there are some numbers that can be adjusted.
If someone want to add a better bard build that would be great.


Scroll to the right (right of the orange column U) for the same builds with a bit less gear and stats.


Here is the relative DPS of the builds:
20 ranger: 100.00%
15 pal/5ranger: 122%
20 pal: 107%
20 bard: 80%
20 pal vg/sd 99%
20 barb: 126%


(And here is how it would look if Dual Perfection was replaced by +1 crit multiplier)
20 ranger: 100%
15 pal/5ranger: 108%
20 pal: 99%
20 bard: 74%
20 pal vg/sd 91%
20 barb: 116%

That bard build is not great. Without going crazy you can achieve main stat in the 60s at least. Exploit weakness is roughly equivalent to 12% DBs or 10% increase in threat range which I don't think you accounted for. You also didn't add resonant arms to the on crit effects. IMHO it vastly underestimated the power of a bard build even just dps wise.

Ps - twist reign also and use Kta. If you need help with the bard build send me a pm.

[Axeyu]

That bard build is not great. Without going crazy you can achieve main stat in the 60s at least. Exploit weakness is roughly equivalent to 12% DBs or 10% increase in threat range which I don't think you accounted for. You also didn't add resonant arms to the on crit effects. IMHO it vastly underestimated the power of a bard build even just dps wise.

Which is why I asked for a better bard build. Post or PM one please.
However, both resonant arms and exploit weakness should be there, will double check.
EDit: Yes I added resonant arms under untyped (don't ask me why there is no line for sonic damage).

[BigErkyKid]

Which is why I asked for a better bard build. Post or PM one please.
However, both resonant arms and exploit weakness should be there, will double check.
EDit: Yes I added resonant arms under untyped (don't ask me why there is no line for sonic damage).

I will be posting one here for transparency. Ok on resonant arms. How did you account for exploit weakness? And please note I don't want to trash your effort, it is pleasant to see people be open about the source of their comments. Too many "secret numbers" around here.

I ll give you some stats for bard later or alternatively direct you to an established build.

[Palna]

i really really wish rangers got more offhand double strike and some stacking alacrity. adding to the crit profile just seems like a bad idea, considering that it doesnt make rangers any more different or interesting than 15/5 pally, and if holy sword gets nerfed then the proposed crit buff for rangers might become too strong. bigger crits also just really doesnt strike me as very tempest-y... oh well. cave in to the peer pressure now, just dont do drugs, those kids arent cool.

i think its a very good decision to make 1k cuts a passive, buff micro management is the least fun part of this game despite how important it is. i think its even better that you are making it a multiselector which rewards dealing with the pain of mini buffs.

I agree with this, Tempest needed something other flavor-wise then bigger crits imo.

And doesn't anyone remember crit rage being removed in the 2009 enhancement pass because critical enhancements was "too powerful"?

[Axeyu]

I will be posting one here for transparency. Ok on resonant arms. How did you account for exploit weakness? And please note I don't want to trash your effort, it is pleasant to see people be open about the source of their comments. Too many "secret numbers" around here.

I ll give you some stats for bard later or alternatively direct you to an established build.

I added exploit weakness simply as +10% crit chance. It's not perfect but I deemed it close enough for the effort.

Thank you.

[sjbb87]

Tested the tempest again, and
Dual Perfection: is not working...
At least in the inventory does not appear the total bonus damage in off-hand

[Requiro]

Coments in Color

Still nothing extra for light weapon users (maybe in Core 20? T5?)

No?
Already get for free

You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons. It's for Scimitars users not light weapon users.
While you are dual wielding, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with light melee weapons Yes, this is the only one ability. That's why I ask for something extra.
Dervish: Passive: +4 Dexterity Meaningless.
Elaborate Parry: For the next 6/12/18 seconds, you gain Dodge, Maximum Dodge and maximum dexterity bonus to light armor, equal to your Dexterity Modifier Here is nothing for light weapon users

more AC same here
More HP(Do not waste points into strength) and here
more reflex and here

What I ask, it's bring light weapon users close (but not better) to khopesh, as an option - just like Bard in Swashbuckling reduce big difference with other weapons.

- Core 18 is still unattractive (nothing that convince people to go 18 or stay Pure)

No?

Whirlwind: +5% melee doublestrike chance when dual wielding, +5 Incorporeality (stacking)
You also gain an additional 10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding

Yes, it's unattractive. It's like 7.5 MP (+7,5% more damage). You consider this attractive as Core 18 ability?
(Why 7,5MP? - 5% Double strike = 5MP for main hand (2,5 MP when dualwielding) + 10% proc offhand = 10MP for offhand (5 MP when dualwielding), 2,5+5=7,5MP.)

It's a favor what they are doing.
And even as they wrote, they prefer people to choose, click the version

I don't like flavor-only improvements. And don't like play in “Preferred” way only. I hope that they don't "improve" that way AA - the only "preferred" way that Varg want me to play.

Stop forcing people to play only one style. Give us real choices, not flavor one only.

And BTW: There are plenty of activated abilities in this Tree (+DWS) and Destinations. I don't have naga mouse, and don't want to be effective by hitting combination of keys in order and repeat the process, rather than get fun from playing. If I want to hit endless buttons I will go Caster Toon not Tempest.

[bbqzor]

We'll still be keeping an eye on it, but this is essentially the role +5% stacking Incorporeality in Whirlwind is fulfilling - not quite the same as dodge cap increase or max dex, but on the whole is a similar kind of defense.

In a sense true. Ultimately they both result in your character being missed by physical/melee/etc attacks. The relative value of more ac/dodge (via mdb) and 5% incorp (via core) depends on the ac/dodge values in question by character so isn't something readily comparable. However, the flat 5% is something that benefits all rangers "equally", while mdb is only of value to characters focusing on dex (to some extent).

I guess in a sense, by allowing dex based builds, I feel it'd be a shame to not let them actually use the full dex towards ac... and with the push to wear light armor (dw survivalist, tempest capstone) it seems quite possible to run into that limit. I will again suggest adding +1 mdb to survivalist (I know its the tempest thread but yea)... that tree does not have the 5% incorp of tempest to meet the "get hit less" role the 5% fills here. As for tempest, I guess its fine since it needs to support str guys in melee as well.

As for the feat boosts, its simply because theyre essentially pointless otherwise. Two weapon defense and two weapon blocking are largely wasted space. I know this isnt a feat pass so I wont really go into details. But I wanted to clarify that I brought it up hoping that a tree which is all about 2wf may be the best place for those feats to actually wind up being useful. And maybe theres no space for that, and thats okay too. Just if there was a time, this is the time, so maybe you can update one or both feats, or add something in the cores which combos with the feats, or something. Otherwise theyre just un-utilized options.

A quick outline of current thinking (compared to earlier outlines in this thread), still definitely subject to additional balance testing and changes

I think these changes to the core are acceptable, given the circumstances. Can't say it would have been my first choice. But dropping 10 melee power and postponing an iconic tempest ability (100% offhand procs) to fit in a crit multiplier at a level which makes sense relative to other classes and appeases a majority in terms of what they want to see seems fine. The postponement of the iconic ability just means 18-20 ranger builds will hold up a bit more favorably, while ranger itself will scale better leveling against other options with the same boosts everyone else gets about that time. I think in the end that comes out pretty fair without losing anything anyone can't live without, or destroying the role tempest should fill (based on its history in ddo). Given the hard choices to be made here, thumbs up for this compromise.

As for 1KC, going from 1/3/5 15/30/45 to 1/3/5 10/20/30, 15 up 90 off, is probably fine. Those values are still enough to be relevant, if less exciting. Its basically just a "combo action boost" (doublestrike and power) with a shorter duration and 3x the cooldown. It takes a lot away from what it did offer, which was almost an epic destiny level bump for a short period... and brings it down to something many race+class combos can achieve natively. The downside is I no longer care much about it, but the upside is its probably easier to manage from a game balance perspective since its no longer anything special.

In light of that, I think the passive option will be appealing. I do not think the +1/2/3% version you mention will really hold up at all... at that point people will simply look to use this "double boost" and save resources elsewhere. You talked about the relative values in proportion, and I think thats fair. But remember... no matter what the "relative" return in proportions... the boost WILL be on when its needed most. Getting 3% more speed clearing trash is nice QOL but doesnt let you do anything you couldn't already. Having a boost on a boss or tough champ or what not adds combat power when it may actually be necessary to do something you otherwise may not (or at least may not as readily).

The boost should be better. And this proposed version is literally about as weak as it can be.. any weaker and its a T5 worse than T2 stuff. But don't let that cloud the passive. I'd rather have 30% when I need it, vs 4% on junk mobs. And thats why theres a selector with a choice to make. But making the passive too weak is just a penalty on players who don't enjoy, or cannot employ (due to computer, age, or whatever reason) the faster use abilities by giving them something "too inferior", if that makes sense.

I should think maybe it could be 2/3/4 passive.. and then 1/3/5 15/25/35 on the boost. That makes the boost "better" by a higher margin in a relative sense. But it also makes it "better" than the T2 boosts it now compares to. And it lets the passive option stay appealing, as it *is* a T5 after all. Without unduly hurting those players making a stylistic choice winding up with "worse" math.

Hopefully all this makes enough sense. Thanks for taking the time to go through feedback and adjust. The core changes really do split the difference about as well as can be expected, and the changes to allow both sets in deepwood also help. It is making a difference, thanks.

[BigErkyKid]

I added exploit weakness simply as +10% crit chance. It's not perfect but I deemed it close enough for the effort.

Thank you.

Darn forums erased my answer. Wow. Ok here we go again, less detailed because I lost patience:

Warchanter (cap, howl of north, chant of power)
Harper (13AP - KTA, 6MP, 1 Int)
Human (3AP, STR+1)
Swash (rest)

Stats (I followed your choices so no short term buffs)

STR: 66 (18 initial + 7 level ups + 6 tome + 4 insight + 11 item + 1 exceptional +4 war chanter (capstone + enhancement) + 4 skaldic + 2 rage +2 inspire excellence + 2 profane + 2 destiny + 2 ship+ 1 human; 18+7+6+4+11+1+4+4+2+2+2+2+2+1)
INT: 44 (use 1 harper, start 15, I won't do break down but hopefully not crazy enough for you to doubt it)

Using a hand axe: 15-20/x3 and 19-20/x7.
Twist in reign.

Changes to keep in mind:

• +8 damage KTA
• +10 stat damage
• +5 music damage
• +2 crit multiplier 19-20
• +1 capstone music damage from inspire heroics (4 base +5 war chanter buff=9) you had 8 before.
• +6% damage from chant
• -10% crit chance

I think this should be substantial improvement from the build you posted, but who knows I haven't made the comparison. By all means modify any glaring mistakes.