Ranger: Tempest Changes

[DevilYouKnow]

Epic Fail



1 Ranger/Melee Power = 1% more damage

The problem that you don't understand is that Archer Focus stacks was applied AFTER Ranged power was added. Thus, when you hit for 100 damage and have 100 ranged power while you have 15 stacks from Archer Focus (+30% more damage) you get: (100+100)*1,3 = 260 dmg. While now you get 100 + 100 + 45 = 245 dmg.

I agree that this part is overall nerf (sometimes huge one), because all ranged toons that get 50 and more Ranged Power will hit for less. And with more Ranged Power the nerf is bigger.

Epic fail yourself, good sir.

This is basically not true at all currently.

See my math on page 28 for further informations.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Changes/page28

Because :

A : melee/ranged power stacks additive.

B : percantage bonus to your weapon damage on the other hand stacks multiplicative.

That means additive =/= multiplicative.

[Xionanx]

Epic fail yourself, good sir.

This is basically not true at all currently.

See my math on page 28 for further informations.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Changes/page28

Because :

A : melee/ranged power stacks additive.

B : percantage bonus to your weapon damage on the other hand stacks multiplicative.

That means additive =/= multiplicative.

You keep saying that, but the wiki says otherwise:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

I have yet to find, and you have yet to provide, proof to back up your claim that its multiplicative. The only thing I could find at all related to damage multipliers is that ONE article on the wiki, which I admit could be wrong, but no quotes from devs.. no thorough video recorded testing, nothing.

I dropped this subject days ago because I saw no point in continuing to debate it, but since it keeps coming up again...

As far as I know, all damage "Multipliers" are multiplied against the BASE damage and then added together. So the 30% from focus is just that, a 30% damage increase. And once again, until I see demonstrable proof otherwise i will continue to believe that 45RP > 30% Focus.

EDIT: Actually, if someone WERE to make a video showing the difference, now would be the perfect time. You can make a "Copy" of the live character that still uses the 30% focus and compare it to a lama character that uses the 45RP and actually SEE the difference. Too bad my highest level ranged character on live right now is under level 10 with really low RP.

[sjbb87]

I know it's not really the issue here, but in a way has to do with the tempest.
It would be possible to add some information when you hit a doublestrike?
It is very difficult to identify when we hit one doublestrike or not.
An example of a way we could identify as if you guys add this UI.

[Axeyu]

You keep saying that, but the wiki says otherwise:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

I have yet to find, and you have yet to provide, proof to back up your claim that its multiplicative. The only thing I could find at all related to damage multipliers is that ONE article on the wiki, which I admit could be wrong, but no quotes from devs.. no thorough video recorded testing, nothing.

I dropped this subject days ago because I saw no point in continuing to debate it, but since it keeps coming up again...

As far as I know, all damage "Multipliers" are multiplied against the BASE damage and then added together. So the 30% from focus is just that, a 30% damage increase. And once again, until I see demonstrable proof otherwise i will continue to believe that 45RP > 30% Focus.

EDIT: Actually, if someone WERE to make a video showing the difference, now would be the perfect time. You can make a "Copy" of the live character that still uses the 30% focus and compare it to a lama character that uses the 45RP and actually SEE the difference. Too bad my highest level ranged character on live right now is under level 10 with really low RP.

This again?
Just go and test it yourself with a damage action boost. I doubt that anyone will bother to make a video to prove something so obvious.

[Eth]

Ok. But where is the sustain part of 100% doublestrike? Sustain for me is not 15 second once per 90 second.

100% sounds exaggerated. There are builds that can get close to 100% DS sustained (thief acrobat for example), but tempest isn't one of them.

9 past lives
12 battlerager belt (enhancement doublestrike can also be 15 if you use Fellblade or First Blood or Lightning Mace (LD))
3 TF armor (or rather black dragon set since you probably want light armor...)
3 hail of blows twist
5 perfect TWF
5 Whirlwind
---
37-39% ...that's pretty much permanent

The other stuff is temporary (Zeal of Righteous, 1k cuts).

[Lonnbeimnech]

100% sounds exaggerated. There are builds that can get close to 100% DS sustained (thief acrobat for example), but tempest isn't one of them.

9 past lives
12 battlerager belt (enhancement doublestrike can also be 15 if you use Fellblade or First Blood or Lightning Mace (LD))
3 TF armor (or rather black dragon set since you probably want light armor...)
3 hail of blows twist
5 perfect TWF
5 Whirlwind
---
37-39% ...that's pretty much permanent

The other stuff is temporary (Zeal of Righteous, 1k cuts).

killer from dws is another 20%
strikes like lightning is another 10% but that means not taking t5 from tempest, so it's not worth it.

[Eth]

killer from dws is another 20%
strikes like lightning is another 10% but that means not taking t5 from tempest, so it's not worth it.

Hm, killer, good point.
But then how "sustained" do you want to count that?
In a quest with high trash density it's pretty much close to 20% sustained.
In most end game raids it's more like 0% - 5%.

[DevilYouKnow]

Hm, killer, good point.
But then how "sustained" do you want to count that?
In a quest with high trash density it's pretty much close to 20% sustained.
In most end game raids it's more like 0% - 5%.

This. The only good ability from dws is killer. You are spending 23 for just one enhancement, which is pretty useless for end game raids.

[Requiro]

(...)but no quotes from devs.. (...)

In this post: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5684763

Steelstar says:

The change is an intentional one. We'll be bumping each stack of Archer's Focus to +3 Ranged Power to bring it a bit closer to where it was (already updated in the OP).

Not direct, but he admit that +3 Ranged Power is not the same as +2% more damage.

The problem with DevilYouKnow is that he keep saying that

A : melee/ranged power stacks additive.

B : percantage bonus to your weapon damage on the other hand stacks multiplicative.

What is wrong. MP or RP stack additive AND give you percentage bonuses to your weapon damage, but apply first

The problem with Archer Focus is that +2% apply after RP was added.

So the formula is: damage * all RP * AF stacks
In new Archer Focus AF stacks are now RP, so we get only: damage * all RP

So the nerf and buff look like this:

Old one. full AF stack (+30% more damage). base damage 100

	10	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	150	200
dmg	143	156	169	182	195	208	221	234	247	260	325	390

New one. Full AF stack (+45 Ranger Power). base damage 100

	10	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	150	200
dmg	155	165	175	185	195	205	215	225	235	245	295	345

As we can see, the buff is when we have already (without Archer Focus stacks) 50 or below RP and nerf with 50 and more RP.

So I think that Archer Focus should be improved to 20 stacks, and 35 stacks with DWS T5 ability.
This way with longer time to collect all stacks, the treshold will move to 100 ranger Power:

Old one. full AF stack (+30% more damage). base damage 100, shorter time to full stacks

	10	20	30	40	60	80	100	120	160	200	250	300
dmg	143	156	169	182	208	234	260	286	338	390	455	520

New one. Full AF stack (+60 Ranger Power). base damage 100, longer time to full stacks.

	10	20	30	40	60	80	100	120	160	200	250	300
dmg	170	180	190	200	220	240	260	280	320	360	410	460

[DevilYouKnow]

In this post: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5684763

Steelstar says:



Not direct, but he admit that +3 Ranged Power is not the same as +2% more damage.

The problem with DevilYouKnow is that he keep saying that



What is wrong. MP or RP stack additive AND give you percentage bonuses to your weapon damage, but apply first

The problem with Archer Focus is that +2% apply after RP was added.

So the formula is: damage * all RP * AF stacks
In new Archer Focus AF stacks are now RP, so we get only: damage * all RP

So the nerf and buff look like this:

Old one. full AF stack (+30% more damage). base damage 100

	10	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	150	200
dmg	143	156	169	182	195	208	221	234	247	260	325	390

New one. Full AF stack (+45 Ranger Power). base damage 100

	10	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	150	200
dmg	155	165	175	185	195	205	215	225	235	245	295	345

As we can see, the buff is when we have already (without Archer Focus stacks) 50 or below RP and nerf with 50 and more RP.

So I think that Archer Focus should be improved to 20 stacks, and 35 stacks with DWS T5 ability.
This way with longer time to collect all stacks, the treshold will move to 100 ranger Power:

Old one. full AF stack (+30% more damage). base damage 100, shorter time to full stacks

	10	20	30	40	60	80	100	120	160	200	250	300
dmg	143	156	169	182	208	234	260	286	338	390	455	520

New one. Full AF stack (+60 Ranger Power). base damage 100, longer time to full stacks.

	10	20	30	40	60	80	100	120	160	200	250	300
dmg	170	180	190	200	220	240	260	280	320	360	410	460

How am i WRONG when you used the exact same math for you "unfinished" equation ?

Those are the formulars as follows.

Percentage calculation, added percentage damage (y -> old archer focus) : ((v/100)+1)*((t/100)*(100+y)) = b (new base dmg after calc.)

Flat bonus only, added ranged power (z -> new archer focus) : (((v+z)/100)+1)*t = a (new base dmg after calc)

For a = b, with y = percentage damage bonus, z = flat ranged power bonus needed for a = b,
v = base ranged power, t = base damage before calc.

it has to be as follows :

a = b :

- ((v/100)+1)*((t/100)*(100+y)) = (((v+z)/100)+1)*t

- ((v/100)+1)*(t+ty/100)) = (((v+z)/100)+1)*t

- (vt/100) + (vty/10000) + t + (ty/100) = ((v+z+100)/100)*t

- vt + (vty/100) + 100*t + ty = (v + z + 100) *t ---> t ( base dmg) is not of importance for this equation.

- v + (vy/100) + 100 + y = v + z + 100

- (vy/100) + y = z ---> This is the ORIGINAL equation !

- y ((v/100) + 1 ) = z ---> flat ranged power needed, for a = b.

Archers focus :

Damage: up to once every half second, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage.

This effect can stack up to 15 times, for a total of +30% missle damage.

That means y = 30.

Result :

For example : With v = 50 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((50/100) + 1 ) = 45 = z

For example : With v = 100 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((110/100) + 1 ) = 60 = z

For example : With v = 110 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((110/100) + 1 ) = 63 = z

conclusion : For every +10 ranged power beyond 100 of your base, you would need 60 + every 3 ranged power to your value z.

For a to be b, the above expression needs to be fulfilled.

That means, the new archers focus needs to provide 60 + 3 ranged power for every +10 ranged power beyond 100 ranged power of your base.

I had suggest raising it to 4 ranged power per stack (15 stacks) for a total of 60 ranged power for it to be equal to the former +2% per stack percentage bonus to missle damage for a total of +30% damage bonus to missle damage at 100 ranged power as base.

By the way. This is also true for melee power boosts.

How come that you used MY math to prove me wrong ?

[Requiro]

How am i WRONG when you used the exact same math for you "unfinished" equation ?

snip

How come that you used MY math to prove me wrong ?

Idk what is YOUR math. To be honest, I don't even try decrypt it to understand it.
Maybe you said the same thing, but in style that some people (me included) don't understand. Idk

Next time don't try convince everybody, that Melee Power or Ranger Power don't give you %damage.
It does, but after all Melee and Ranged Power are sum together.
Then with Old Archer Focus %damage works multiplicative.
That’s why with current changes, it’s buff until you get 50 RP and nerf each additional point beyond.

[Vargouille]

I know it's not really the issue here, but in a way has to do with the tempest.
It would be possible to add some information when you hit a doublestrike?
It is very difficult to identify when we hit one doublestrike or not.

This is something we'd like to do. Updating UI/feedback is often more difficult than you might expect, however. But yes, I've long wanted to get something in DDO to reflect when doublestrikes are happening.

[Grailhawk]

Idk what is YOUR math. To be honest, I don't even try decrypt it to understand it.
Maybe you said the same thing, but in style that some people (me included) don't understand. Idk

It would help him a lot if he explained what his variables a little sooner and if he explained how he gets the equations he gets, but I do think he is doing the same thing you are.

Next time don't try convince everybody, that Melee Power or Ranger Power don't give you %damage.

In his defense he was saying that a while back but he has silently dropped that once he understood it was %damage boost.


On the hole 1 MP = 1% More Damage this is both true and false it depends on what you are looking at as your base. If you think of your total damage after crits and melee power as your base then 1 MP is not a 1% increase. How ever if all you are doing is looking at your base (the w[1dy] +xx part) then yes it is a 1% increase to your base damage.

[DevilYouKnow]

Idk what is YOUR math. To be honest, I don't even try decrypt it to understand it.
Maybe you said the same thing, but in style that some people (me included) don't understand. Idk

Next time don't try convince everybody, that Melee Power or Ranger Power don't give you %damage.
It does, but after all Melee and Ranged Power are sum together.
Then with Old Archer Focus %damage works multiplicative.
That’s why with current changes, it’s buff until you get 50 RP and nerf each additional point beyond.

What is it that you don't understand about my math ? Do you think a simple equation without its original source
like y = x*z will do ? How does that give any informations of each variable used ?

I perfectly laid out the proper math for each of the variables and their purpose in every equation used.

Maybe take some of your time and read every bit of what you have taken from MY math to understand its proper meaning.

[Grailhawk]

Maybe take some of your time and read every bit of what you have taken from MY math to understand its proper meaning.

No, If you are going to use math to prove a point you need to present it in such a way that the people you are presenting it to can understand it. If you are not willing to do that then your posts are wroth less.

[DevilYouKnow]

It would help him a lot if he explained what his variables a little sooner and if he explained how he gets the equations he gets, but I do think he is doing the same thing you are.



In his defense he was saying that a while back but he has silently dropped that once he understood it was %damage boost.


On the hole 1 MP = 1% More Damage this is both true and false it depends on what you are looking at as your base. If you think of your total damage after crits and melee power as your base then 1 MP is not a 1% increase. How ever if all you are doing is looking at your base (the w[1dy] +xx part) then yes it is a 1% increase to your base damage.

I did ALWAYS understand its purpose.

But it seems you are trying to cut off every old damage boost we currently have to prove me wrong.

Which is WRONG. It is YOU who does not understand.

Also with the OLD damage boost we currently have and with OLD percentage damage enhancements, there will never be a situation where +1 MP/RP equals to +1% of your weapons damage. Because everyone will at least have +1 MP/RP base and everyone will at least have one OLD damage boost source.

Why is that so hard to understand ? This is making me angry seriously.

[DevilYouKnow]

No, If you are going to use math to prove a point you need to present it in such a way that the people you are presenting it to can understand it. If you are not willing to do that then your posts are wroth less.

This is basic elementary school math with all the variables, equations as well as their purposes laid out before you.

What is so hard to understand ? There is no meaning behind math without its origin.


Any other math presented without its original meaning and purpose is strictly flawed and worthless.

For example : A = X*Y*Z

What is X,Y and Z ? What purpose do they have ? Where did you find them ? And why ?

Without all those informations, your math would be meaningless.

[Grailhawk]

I did ALWAYS understand its purpose.

But it seems you are trying to cut off every old damage boost we currently have to prove me wrong.

Which is WRONG. It is YOU who does not understand.

Also with the OLD damage boost we currently have and with OLD percentage damage enhancements, there will never be a situation where +1 MP/RP equals to +1% of your weapons damage. Because everyone will at least have +1 MP/RP base and everyone will at least have one OLD damage boost source.

Why is that so hard to understand ? This is making me angry seriously.

Its not hard to understand the issue is you are trying to change the definition of what melee power is. Melee power is a 1% increase to your base damage. Old damage boost doesn't change that (though it is the same thing which means it stacks with melee power multiplicatively instead of additively which does result in a nerf when ever they change old %damage boost to Melee Power). Want you are proving is that melee power is not 1% increase to total damage (that's right its not) its a 1% increase to base damage.

[Requiro]

What is it that you don't understand about my math ? (...)

Too much information, that is not needed.

[willox2112]

Hi Devs,

I am wondering, and maybe some folks have asked this before in this thread... but the Tempest capstone, could it be a choice of +4 Dex or +4 Str? The other bonuses seem fine to me, but a Str based Tempest would be at a disadvantage. Or is it a calculated decision based on how Str is easier to buff than Dex with other spells/items in the game?

By the way, in DWS tree, the attribute choices could very well include Str along Dex and Wis.

Thanks!