Ranger: Tempest Changes

[ValariusK]

Rangers are also the only major melee class now that doesn't have increased speed (other than the option of an action boost).
Bards have 20%, Barbs 10% free plus action boost access without tradeoffs, Fighters and pallies have 10%. Rogues have 20%. Monks 30% plus leap.

[EllisDee37]

Actually, thinking further on the crit profile issue, here's a design concept to "fake" that dps without giving actual crit bonuses:

- Give out Improved Critical feat in some way
- Bypass fortification

If you have Precision, ship buffs, thunderforged, and twist in Grim Precision, that's 80% fort bypass. So 20% is the magic number to bring that to 100% fort bypass, letting you crit more than someone with less than 100% bypass but who has a better crit profile when fighting 100% fort mobs.

For tempest, how about a tier 5 that grants Improved Critical while dual-wielding if either a) your offhand weapon is light, or b) you take the Oversized TWF feat.


That means my ideal Tier 5 would look like:

Evasive Dance: no change

A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +10/+15/+20 doublestrike and bypass 10%/15%/20% fortification for 12 seconds. Cooldown: 15 seconds. (Shares a cooldown with Dance of Death.)

Dance of Death: (Shares a cooldown with A Thousand Cuts.)

Dual Perfection: (2 AP) +5% attack speed. Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)

Whirling Blades: (2 AP) +1 to hit and damage when dual wielding. You gain the effects of Improved Critical for all weapons when dual wielding.
Requires All Of: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Tier 4 Whirling Blades.

[Grailhawk]

Small quality of life request can the tool tip that shows double strike be adjusted to also show off hand double strike.

Doublestrike: 32.0/35.0

For example?

[slarden]

This feat does not work with anything except wraps. Please fix this so it works with weapons:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Whirlwind_Attack

There is a link to a test on the wiki.

[Vargouille]

Tier One

• Improved Defense: (2/2/2 AP) Shield of Whirling Steel grants +1/2/3 Armor Class, Physical Resist, and Magical Resistance.
  Deflect Arrows it can trigger once every 4/3/2 seconds removed?

No! This was a copy/paste error, thanks for catching it. Not removed! (Fixed OP.)

[Delacroix21]

I just noticed elaborate parry is dex MOD, not Dex Score , which makes it an extremely weak panic button considering the 90 sec cooldown.

Meld into darkness shadowdancer twist gives 100% dodge every 15 secs with 2min cooldown, and almost nobody twists that.

Elaborate parry should be dex score not dex mod.


Also do tempest rangers get 100% offhand from cores like they do on live?


Lastly will any of the stuff in this tree work with unarmed, my guess is no like everything else.

[WiseFreelancer]

I'd like to echo the cost concern - the defensive abilities in this tree are too expensive. 2/2/2 for 1 AC/MRR/PRR is a poor investment - 2 per tier at least, or down to 1/1/1. Also, Improved Parry hasn't been touched, which at Tier 2 would also look much much better as 1/1/1.

I like the idea of some kind of crit improvement to the off-hand only - its thematic and it limits the run-away abuse crit changes could have on two weapon fighting. That being said, dps boosted in other ways would be just as fun, for the variety if nothing else. Comparing the crit bonuses from some of the other trees is unfair though - rangers don't need crit bonuses the same way dagger rogues do (for example), as a tempest can just go dual scimitars with their inherently superior crit profiles already. Holy sword is a different kettle of fish, of course.

A final thought on Tempest (which I don't expect to change) is that it feels like there's few activated abilities compared to Deepwood Stalker. Flavour-wise, that strikes me as a little off.

And as a total aside, given I didn't reply to the other thread but I know some feedback on AA was given - I really, really hope AA gives some spell power boosts in its lower tiers. Not on the scale of a true caster, but something beyond that available through Soul Magic and the Tier 5s. Small Universal spell power additions to the cores would be cool, especially as the +1 enhancement bonuses are useless with epic weapons.

*Edit* - on the speed-buff point ValariusK brought up - maybe rather than giving a boost in the tempest tree, the longstrider spells could be revisited like some of paladin spells were?

[CThruTheEgo]

Small quality of life request can the tool tip that shows double strike be adjusted to also show off hand double strike.

Doublestrike: 32.0/35.0

For example?

/seconded.

[RD2play]

- whirlwind is a bit lacklustre,
- dervish, looks like a good capstone. yet I usually run str build so the dex isn't doing it for me, maybe add +2str

- improved defence is either too expensive or too weak, make it 1/1/1 AP or increase the bonus to +3/6/10
- acrobatic, good change

- elaborate parry, bit long on the cooldown. looks like a great ability

- storm dancer/tempest, look like ok abilities are they going to be preqs for 1kcuts?

- Thousand cuts, looks great but little short on the duration, maybe change to 10/15/20 seconds
- Dual Perfection, perfection
- Whirling blades, did you remove this from the lower tiers and then combined them into this one enhancement? yes? .. maybe move it to T4, else its ok here but 2ap for 3dmg ? change to MP maybe.

There seems to be very little dodge in this tree other than the "panic dodge" so are these all the abilities or just the changed added ones ? I hope so since I don't see dance in there either?

[ValariusK]

I'd like to echo the cost concern - the defensive abilities in this tree are too expensive. 2/2/2 for 1 AC/MRR/PRR is a poor investment - 2 per tier at least, or down to 1/1/1. Also, Improved Parry hasn't been touched, which at Tier 2 would also look much much better as 1/1/1.

I like the idea of some kind of crit improvement to the off-hand only - its thematic and it limits the run-away abuse crit changes could have on two weapon fighting. That being said, dps boosted in other ways would be just as fun, for the variety if nothing else. Comparing the crit bonuses from some of the other trees is unfair though - rangers don't need crit bonuses the same way dagger rogues do (for example), as a tempest can just go dual scimitars with their inherently superior crit profiles already. Holy sword is a different kettle of fish, of course.

A final thought on Tempest (which I don't expect to change) is that it feels like there's few activated abilities compared to Deepwood Stalker. Flavour-wise, that strikes me as a little off.

And as a total aside, given I didn't reply to the other thread but I know some feedback on AA was given - I really, really hope AA gives some spell power boosts in its lower tiers. Not on the scale of a true caster, but something beyond that available through Soul Magic and the Tier 5s. Small Universal spell power additions to the cores would be cool, especially as the +1 enhancement bonuses are useless with epic weapons.

Rogue crit with dagger or Kukri is 30%/4x, which is a 90% bonus. If they finagle a dagger with an extended crit range, they're doing 40%/4x, which is 120% like a SOS.
Rangers are doing 20%/3x with Khopesh (40%), or 30%/2x with scimitar (30%). It is a huge difference. Either other classes need to have theirs toned down or rangers need to get it also, unless you're prepared to give insane amounts of doublestrike and Melee power relative to the competitors.

[DevilYouKnow]

Dance of Death: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage (2/2/2). Your basic attacks when dual wielding strike 2/3/4 targets per swing instead of one for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

How about reducing its cost to (1/1/1) per tier taken ? It just seems to be a bit too expensive currently.

We are talking about 6 ap...

[Grailhawk]

I like the idea of some kind of crit improvement to the off-hand only - its thematic and it limits the run-away abuse crit changes could have on two weapon fighting. That being said, dps boosted in other ways would be just as fun, for the variety if nothing else. Comparing the crit bonuses from some of the other trees is unfair though - rangers don't need crit bonuses the same way dagger rogues do (for example), as a tempest can just go dual scimitars with their inherently superior crit profiles already. Holy sword is a different kettle of fish, of course.

I'm sorry but a base Scimitar or Khopesh with out a crit enhancement is a **** crit profile in today's game.

15-20/x2 (increase of 0.3(100%) = 30% increase from base)
17-20/x3 (increase of 0.2(200%) = 40% increase from base)

compared to Knife spec + Lethality
15-20/x4 (increase of 0.3(300%) = 90% increase from base)

LOL is all i can say to the Scimitars inherently superior crit profile. Rogues and others are getting more then 2x the damage from critical hits that Rangers are.

[Arlathen]

My first thoughts before I go away and digest properly:

1. DPS

Tempest: +20 Melee Power, +5% Doublestrike, +25% Offhand Doublestrike, Full offhand statmod, +2D6 Electrical Damage (+100% MP Scaling)
DWS: +40 Melee Power, +40 Ranged Power, +10% Mainhand Doublestrike, +20% Doubleshot, +5D6 Sneak Attack (+150% MP Scaling)

I think DWS wins this contest on baseline adds. Does that not ring any alarm bells for anyone else? It does me. Also, Paladin 15 / Ranger 5 is still the better DPS option, even with these changes.

Not only that, I feel like Tempests are getting a huge "Go Play with yourself" because of no Critical enhancement. To spell it out bluntly, this doesn't let them compare with Bards, Paladins or Barbarians. Hell, not even Kensai Fighters.

As a suggestion, if you want to make Tempests comparable, but not absolute 100% top line dps, add a +1 comptence Crit Multiplier bonus to Scimitars only in the level 18 Core.

My Tempest is a Str-based Khopesh build, but if this was added in I would gladly trade in every single piece of crafted Khopesh gear I've collected over the years to follow the change and go for Scimitars.

One last thing - A Thousand cuts: I don't like long cooldown abilities. Scale the cooldown right down to Dance of Death levels and rework the ability to reflect the greater uptime.

2. Defense

Tempest: +30 PRR total, +20 MRR(?!)
DWS: +12 PRR, +60 HP

The PRR bonus feels right for the front-line Melee version a Ranger. With Improved Parry for a total of 30 PRR that's enough to get them into a respectable space for defence.

Not sure I get the MRR. Rangers are Evasion specialists in Light Armour - why are they getting easy magical defense? If anything this just tempts a Tempest to ignore evasion, dump DEX, go for STR and strap on Heavy Armour through feats.

As a further suggestion, remove the MRR bonus from the cores and add in the same value in Dodge % and Reflex save. Improved Defense and the Capstone could offer something different than MRR.


Other stuff....
I need to sleep, but I'll be back with a fuller exploration of the changes.

[DevilYouKnow]

My first thoughts before I go away and digest properly:

1. DPS

Tempest: +20 Melee Power, +5% Doublestrike, +25% Offhand Doublestrike, Full offhand statmod, +2D6 Electrical Damage (+100% MP Scaling)
DWS: +40 Melee Power, +40 Ranged Power, +10% Mainhand Doublestrike, +20% Doubleshot, +5D6 Sneak Attack (+150% MP Scaling)

I think DWS wins this contest on baseline adds. Does that not ring any alarm bells for anyone else? It does me. Also, Paladin 15 / Ranger 5 is still the better DPS option, even with these changes.

Not only that, I feel like Tempests are getting a huge "Go Play with yourself" because of no Critical enhancement. To spell it out bluntly, this doesn't let them compare with Bards, Paladins or Barbarians. Hell, not even Kensai Fighters.

As a suggestion, if you want to make Tempests comparable, but not absolute 100% top line dps, add a +1 comptence Crit Multiplier bonus to Scimitars only in the level 18 Core.

My Tempest is a Str-based Khopesh build, but if this was added in I would gladly trade in every single piece of crafted Khopesh gear I've collected over the years to follow the change and go for Scimitars.

One last thing - A Thousand cuts: I don't like long cooldown abilities. Scale the cooldown right down to Dance of Death levels and rework the ability to reflect the greater uptime.

2. Defense

Tempest: +30 PRR total, +20 MRR(?!)
DWS: +12 PRR, +60 HP

The PRR bonus feels right for the front-line Melee version a Ranger. With Improved Parry for a total of 30 PRR that's enough to get them into a respectable space for defence.

Not sure I get the MRR. Rangers are Evasion specialists in Light Armour - why are they getting easy magical defense? If anything this just tempts a Tempest to ignore evasion, dump DEX, go for STR and strap on Heavy Armour through feats.

As a further suggestion, remove the MRR bonus from the cores and add in the same value in Dodge % and Reflex save. Improved Defense and the Capstone could offer something different than MRR.


Other stuff....
I need to sleep, but I'll be back with a fuller exploration of the changes.

Here we go again... If some of us prefer playing that way, then just let us do so.

Why does that even bother you so much ?

[Grailhawk]

My first thoughts before I go away and digest properly:

1. DPS

Tempest: +20 Melee Power, +5% Doublestrike, +25% Offhand Doublestrike, Full offhand statmod, +2D6 Electrical Damage (+100% MP Scaling)
DWS: +40 Melee Power, +40 Ranged Power, +10% Mainhand Doublestrike, +20% Doubleshot, +5D6 Sneak Attack (+150% MP Scaling)

I think DWS wins this contest on baseline adds. Does that not ring any alarm bells for anyone else? It does me. Also, Paladin 15 / Ranger 5 is still the better DPS option, even with these changes.

Not only that, I feel like Tempests are getting a huge "Go Play with yourself" because of no Critical enhancement. To spell it out bluntly, this doesn't let them compare with Bards, Paladins or Barbarians. Hell, not even Kensai Fighters.

As a suggestion, if you want to make Tempests comparable, but not absolute 100% top line dps, add a +1 comptence Crit Multiplier bonus to Scimitars only in the level 18 Core.

My Tempest is a Str-based Khopesh build, but if this was added in I would gladly trade in every single piece of crafted Khopesh gear I've collected over the years to follow the change and go for Scimitars.

One last thing - A Thousand cuts: I don't like long cooldown abilities. Scale the cooldown right down to Dance of Death levels and rework the ability to reflect the greater uptime.

Did you see the change to Killer in Stalker that's another 20% DS.

The +1 crit multiplier could be added to any non Khopesh weapons and be fine. Limit it to Light One-Handed weapons + Scimitars IMO.

Not sure I get the MRR. Rangers are Evasion specialists in Light Armour - why are they getting easy magical defense? If anything this just tempts a Tempest to ignore evasion, dump DEX, go for STR and strap on Heavy Armour through feats.

Looks like they are doing that instead of giving out +Reflex save.

[Arlathen]

Here we go again... If some of us prefer playing that way, then just let us do so.

Why does that even bother you so much ?

It doesn't 'bother' me at all. As someone who historically loved multi-classing, I like the Paladin 15/ Ranger 5 build concept for its power. I've even played one, and enjoyed it for a time until I LR'd that particularly character into a pure 20 Paladin Vanguard.

What I'm asking for is not a nerf to the Paladin build, or even Holy Sword, but a buff to the Pure Ranger build. I want to see 20 Melee Ranger gain near the same level of offensive power as what the Melee Paladin build does. I want to play 20 Melee Ranger without feeling like it doesn't compare to the Paladin 15 / Ranger 5 build for melee damage effectiveness.

Otherwise, the I'll just TR my pure Ranger into the 15 Paladin / 5 Ranger build. *Shrug*

[btolson]

Tier Five[/B]

• A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack. Deals +1/+3/+5(W) damage. You gain +15/+30/+45 doublestrike, +15/30/45 Melee Power, 15 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds.
  
  • Gives more room for beneficial Doublestrike from other abilities, increases basic damage, synergy with other abilities that scale with Melee Power, slightly reduces lag with lower Doublestrike.
  
  
• Dual Perfection: (2 AP) Your off hand weapon now adds your full attribute damage modifier. (For instance, if you have 30 Strength, you'll gain +10 damage with your offhand weapon, like your main hand weapon.)
• Whirling Blades: (2 AP) +3 to hit and damage when dual wielding.

Ultimately t5 still looks too weak to bring rangers up to par with other melees.

Here is an idea I'm toying with, to be worked into t5 somewhere, probably rolled into Whirling Blades since it offers the least benefit currently.


Critical Furor
Whenever you score a critical hit with your mainhand weapon, you instantly make another offhand attack. Whenever you score a critical hit with your offhand weapon, you instantly make another attack with your mainhand weapon.


Mathematically, when wielding 2 identical weapons, this will be equivalent to +1.something critical multiplier (depending on what weapon you are using), and it achieves this is in a wholly unique way, that is thematically appropriate to the weapon-flashing tempest.

The only problem is that it isn't inherently exclusive with competence bonus to critical multiplier, so an additional weapon effect will need to added which renders your weapons immune to competence bonuses to crit multiplier.

[ValariusK]

Honestly speaking, is there a case for ANY class to have more dps than a ranger?
Yes, IMO, there is only one, the fighter.
Barbs and rogue and rangers should be in the same tier of dps.
IMO, rogues are right about there. Balance the ranger so that it has rogue level dps.

[CThruTheEgo]

Critical Furor
Whenever you score a critical hit with your mainhand weapon, you instantly make another offhand attack. Whenever you score a critical hit with your offhand weapon, you instantly make another attack with your mainhand weapon.


Mathematically, when wielding 2 identical weapons, this will be equivalent to +1.something critical multiplier (depending on what weapon you are using), and it achieves this is in a wholly unique way, that is thematically appropriate to the weapon-flashing tempest.

The only problem is that it isn't inherently exclusive with competence bonus to critical multiplier, so an additional weapon effect will need to added which renders your weapons immune to competence bonuses to crit multiplier.

That's an interesting idea and thematically appropriate. +1 for thinking outside the box.

[Gedov]

Wait, I'll be able to take almost exactly the same enhancements I do now in my favorite build, get more out of each of those enhancements, *and* get back 6 AP to spend elsewhere! I'm on board.