Acquiring Past Lives at Level Cap

[Gremmlynn]

The concept of being in one ED but gaining XP in another has never made any sense.

No. But tying fate points to doing those multiple destinies never really has either, other than poor attempt by the devs to manipulate the player base into TRing to make things easier.

[noinfo]

You really need to polish up on your arguments here. The discussion on banking XP, routing XP to off-destinies has come up time and time again. It has been considered and rejected.

The concept of earning past lives at level cap is a whole new level of "I want something but I want to do it this way instead of the way it is".

Read the description of any past life. The heroic ones are especially clear in stating "You were a <class> in a past life." You gain these by going through the reincarnation process. This really isn't difficult to grasp.

To suggest that you can somehow sit on a Paladin or whatever the current FOTM build happens to be and somehow gain knowledge associated with an arcane past life is beyond ridiculous. I can be called many things, but lacking in imagination isn't one of them. Yet this whole notion just beggars belief. But by all means, keep trying to convince people that it's a worthy idea.

To say it has been considered and rejected is garbage. Every time it has come up it has had those in favour and those not in favour and never has there been a dev response.

You an spin your descriptions of pastlives anyway you want, it would be trivial to have the following as an example of progression for wizard: you have earned Arcane paragon status level 1 (instead of past life) this grants you +2 spell pen stacking with past life wizard only up to 3 times cumulative in any combination. If you think it would need to be called a past life you really missing the mark.
This can be done for all abilities that make sense to have access to for casting etc. I don't believe past lives of non related classes or abilities should be accessible, if you want the flexibility then by all means TR.
ETR is a whole other ball game that I believe needs reworking but I am not going there right now.

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the classes multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single class are not and should be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

Your right its not a difficult concept to grasp but feel free to continue to try and convince everyone that this is the only way it should be done. Even if nothing is done this time, it will come up again and I am sure that before we hit level cap and a true end game being worked on it will come up again and be discussed by devs.

[Axeyu]

its getting harder and harder to believe players actually want or care about longevity in this game anymore.

raid completions persisting through TR
sitting at cap to get past lives
Ottos Boxes
domination of xp/min
drop rates increased even more
same loot on normal as elite
increase xp in various ways
reducing challenge even further than it is now

Players don't care about longevity. There are thousands of game out there, so why should they?
It's up to the devs to care about longevity if they want players to keep playing their game.

[noinfo]

Change is one thing, fixing something that actually works, just so that people will have less to do is foolishness.

You may not like to have play the game to get what you want, but that doesnt actually make it a good idea to give ti to everybody for free.

So in what way is it free? Do people log on and automatically get it or do they have to play their characters? It is not free, its natural progression rather than progression by regression.

[Axeyu]

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the classes multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single class are not and should be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the raids multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single raid are not and should not be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

The difference is arbitrary.

[Gremmlynn]

There are good things about TR and also bad things (clearing the cache, ugh). I find it useful to do at least twice on a toon, just to get 36 point build and the ability to open elite.

Personally, I don't even see the build points as worth the trouble and the ability to open elite is pretty pointless at that point as epic quests don't have that restriction and, by the time I reach 20 the first time, I have no real need to run heroic quests anymore (even for favor, it's less work to run anything I haven't already or is added to the game 3 times than to level to 20 that many times to avoid having to).

[mikarddo]

It's not like I am against more end game content. I just think it would be a huge mistake to essentially replace the TR system with a grind-at-endgame system.

Supplement does not equal replace.

I dont think heroic PLs should be given an alternative - but I do think epic PL should (despite already having done 25 of those on my main and thus not needing many if any more).

Add an option to save up 30m karma in a sphere and to expend that 30m karma for an epic PL without lowering your level or getting a LR.

30m at cap is certainly far slower than 6.6m while going from 20 to 28 so there is no way this addition would significantly replace the current method of getting EPL. What it would do would be to allow someone to stay at cap for a longer time yet feel a sense of progression.

Mind - this would not be a grind system because its strictly and by far inferior to the already existing grind - so calling it a grind would be misplaced. Instead it would let someone decide sometimes to stay at cap for a much longer time than is currently done without feeling like a fool and still let the same someone use the established grind system when being at cap lost its charm.

A clear win-win situation imho.

[noinfo]

TR adds content to otherwise capped characters. That is just a fact. Denying facts while calling others narrowminded shows that you have no actual argument.

There is nothing inherently wrong with "progression by regression". If you don't like it that's too bad, but it has become an major part of this game nontheless.

Just because it is part of the game does not mean it has to be the only part of it, your persistent denial of that fact is the very definition of narrow mindedness.

Your continue to present no valid argument. You bemoan that people will no longer TR and it cause the end of the game, when clearly TR will still be an option for those who want it and would provide an alternative for those who hate it, or a mixture for those in between.
If you want to make the TR path faster than the end game one, no one would care as long as they saw the progression being made.

[walkin_dude]

Fate points? Unless you mean it can be avoided by simply re-rolling the character to something else with a TR and spending the time leveling it through 20 heroic levels on some temporary build to avoid being off destiny?

If so, that's the same absurd idea the devs seemed to have had when they came up with the whole process.

If this were /., I'd start my response with "Hey, you insensitive clod!" But we're not, so...

Anyway, what you call absurd is how I actually do it. lol

[Axeyu]

Supplement does not equal replace.

I dont think heroic PLs should be given an alternative - but I do think epic PL should (despite already having done 25 of those on my main and thus not needing many if any more).

Add an option to save up 30m karma in a sphere and to expend that 30m karma for an epic PL without lowering your level or getting a LR.

30m at cap is certainly far slower than 6.6m while going from 20 to 28 so there is no way this addition would significantly replace the current method of getting EPL. What it would do would be to allow someone to stay at cap for a longer time yet feel a sense of progression.

Mind - this would not be a grind system because its strictly and by far inferior to the already existing grind - so calling it a grind would be misplaced. Instead it would let someone decide sometimes to stay at cap for a much longer time than is currently done without feeling like a fool and still let the same someone use the established grind system when being at cap lost its charm.

A clear win-win situation imho.

The practical outcome of noinfos suggestion would be that it pretty much replaced TR.


Your suggestion is different in that you would still play the same content, so it would not really take away anything.

[Gremmlynn]

TRing gives players so much TP they don't have to ever buy any, and still get all packs and races and classes released without farming. TR is the reason for more and more things like otto boxes, shards, stat tomes, skill tomes etc. in store; turbine hopes people will finally have a reason to buy some TPs to get their hands on p2w stuff unavaible in game (or avaible only in theory with drop chance bellow 0.01%).

Not to mention that many of those things can cause characters to gain less favor over the course of a TR by making less content needing to be run.

[noinfo]

What beggers belief is that people who like pokemon believe that by collecting all the raids multiple times they should be entitled to progress in power where as those who dedicate themselves to a single raid are not and should not be capped in power/development. That is true sense of entitlement.

The difference is arbitrary.

Sorry was this an attempt to link TR to raiding for gear or something else? I am sure you have missed whatever point you were shooting for but that does not seem out of place with your other arguments.

[Gremmlynn]

No. It's naive to believe that people will keep playing for as long if the content they run is significantly decreased just because the bonuses are the same.


What you are missing is that the devs always control how people play the game. Mainly through incentives. If the incentive to TR is removed or significantly dimished (by allowing to gain the same benefits with less effort and/or more comfort) then far less players will TR and instead just repeat the same endgame content that they already have incentive to farm and simply run out of content. At that point they will just quit and play something else.

Except that I don't much heroic TR (twice since it's been in the game) and I'm still here. TRing simply doesn't have any incentive for me. The bonuses are way to small for the amount of effort involved IMO and would be stupidly game breaking if they weren't. Nice alternate to deleting and re-rolling an otherwise unused chararter IMO, but nothing I would choose to do for an extra 10hp's or +1 to hit.

[noinfo]

The practical outcome of noinfos suggestion would be that it pretty much replaced TR.


Your suggestion is different in that you would still play the same content, so it would not really take away anything.

My suggestion would not replace TR for those who wanted to either gain non related power to their class or they just wanted to run lower content, TR would be there.
A fighter should not be able to pick up spell pen but would be able to get the +10 hp from barb, etc.

[walkin_dude]

Maybe I'm just not as desperate for a game to play as you, but if a DM ran a game in a manner I didn't particularly like, I would simply stop playing with that DM as, to me, not playing at all is preferable to not having fun while playing. Same thing here.

Heh, well, I haven't been in a pnp gaming group since ... about 1993, I guess. But no matter what game you want to talk about, there has to be some structure. Are you saying that you can only have fun if the DM capitulates to your every whim? The overriding sentiment on these forums most of the time seems to be that of people who want to be catered to hand and foot.

Unless you mean there is something wrong with enjoying playing while also gaining progress. If so, all I can say is that I can't see why anyone wouldn't make that their goal when designing a game.

Not sure how to respond here. As others have said, progress is what you do to prepare for the endgame. :P

[walkin_dude]

No. But tying fate points to doing those multiple destinies never really has either, other than poor attempt by the devs to manipulate the player base into TRing to make things easier.

Well, we could just eliminate twists, so then nobody would feel compelled to zerg/grind all of the EDs on one life (all the while complaining how unfun it is).

[walkin_dude]

you have earned Arcane paragon status level 1 (instead of past life) this grants you +2 spell pen stacking with past life wizard only up to 3 times cumulative in any combination.

So are you suggesting that this bonus be cumulative with PL bonuses? So you can grind them all out and then decide you don't really hate TR as much as you thought and go for the double-dip?

Come on, now...

[walkin_dude]

Players don't care about longevity. There are thousands of game out there, so why should they?

The other ones (that I have tried) haven't caught my attention the way DDO has. :P

[walkin_dude]

Personally, I don't even see the build points as worth the trouble and the ability to open elite is pretty pointless at that point as epic quests don't have that restriction and, by the time I reach 20 the first time, I have no real need to run heroic quests anymore (even for favor, it's less work to run anything I haven't already or is added to the game 3 times than to level to 20 that many times to avoid having to).

Maybe the emphasized portion of the above quote is the sticking point. None of it is work to me. :P

[Gremmlynn]

Saying people will just quite and play something else is once again just your opinion. How many people would also get to the cap and say ok, what's next? What do you mean you TR and start all over again in a different class? How many do you think that would have cost us?

In my experience it has cost the game many. Generally it happens a few days after that player's first TR that I simply see them never logging in again. My theory is that between the drop off in character utility and the thought of what it will take to get back to where they were it just doesn't seem worth it.